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Bible Study
See other Bible Study Articles

Title: The 5th horseman
Source: Revelation 19
URL Source: http://the5horsemen.com
Published: May 6, 2016
Author: Me and John/Jesus
Post Date: 2016-05-06 08:28:45 by interpreter
Keywords: revelation, 5th horseman, Marriage Supper
Views: 16980
Comments: 68

The 5th horseman (who appears in Rev. 19)

Many Christians think the 5th horseman is Jesus, but I disagree for many reasons, first of all because the history books say Jesus returned in 312 AD. But at the same time, it can also be argued that the five horsemen are five dispensations of the second coming.

The name of the 5th horseman is "Word of God" which signifies that the 5th horseman is a Slav. Slav is short for "Slovo" which means Word of God. The name of his horse is "Faithful and True" which is the definition of Orthodox and signifies that he rides the Orthodox Church into power as did the first rider of the white horse.

The sharp two-edged sword coming out of his mouth represents the Word of God which he rules by, and judges and makes war. It also signifies that the 5th horseman is one of the seven golden lampstands established by the early Church to give light to the seven parts of the earth. When connected on a world map or globe, they form a sharp two-edged sword. (See it at 7stars7lampstands.com).

I believe that the 5th horseman is Slobodan Milosevic and the Serbs. The name of the nation that no one recognizes except the fifth horseman is Republica Serpska. The president of Serbia is "king" of the Serbian kings and lords. As general Ratko Mladi hollered out to the birds of the air, standing in the sun on the World News, the Srebronica massacre he was about to carry out was the prophesied Marriage Supper of the Lamb which results in thousands of corpses for the birds of the air to feast on. His exact words are quoted in Rev. 19:18. That may seem unChristian-like to some Christians, but in Luke 19:27 Jesus commands His followers to kill His enemies, defined by Jesus as anyone who does not want a Christian nation to rule over them. That fits the Srebronicans to a T. And about half of the Srebronican's lives were taken, which fulfills the prophecy of Jesus in Luke 17:33-37 and Mat. 24:40-41.

The Srebronica Massacre represents the proper marriage between Church and State. That is, in Republica Srpska, the Church and State are united as one. Also in Serbia, under Milosevic, the Church and State were united as one -- then in 2000 he was defeated at the pols, and was arrested and sent to the Hague. The Good News is (or the really bad news for the enemies of Jesus is) Milosevic's party is now back in power, and once again there is very little separation of Church and State in Serbia, and they are basically united as one.

More so than any other Christian nation, the Serbs rule with a rod of iron, both figuratively and literally. That is, a “rod” can also mean a gun, which is made of iron. At times, Serbian martyrs lead the Serbs into battle, wearing white robes and riding white horses (as is well-documented by WW I historians). But the vast majority of the time since then, Serbian priests dressed in white robes lead the Serbs into battle riding on the turret of a tank.

The False Prophet of ch. 19

The Muslim militants not killed by Milosevic and his generals, plus the false prophet(s) who have aided the Islamic invaders of their ancient homeland "will be cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone" (vv 20-21) . It deeply saddens me to have to finger a popular fellow countryman, but Bill Clinton best fits the description of the false prophet. Almost single-handily he enabled Muslims, the 7th head of Satan, to take over a Christian nation, which is a big No-No with God. It also saddens me that Clinton has many followers today, chief of which is his other half, who (according to some polls) is likely to be our next president. I hope and pray that we elect Trump who hates Muslim militants with a passion as every follower of God should. Otherwise , I fear that we will all go to hell in a hand basket riding on Clinton's coattails (as the Revelation may indeed be suggesting here). Also deserving mention is Britain, France, Germany and Italy, who voted with the US to recognize the new Muslim/Satanic nation in Kosovo while at the same time refusing to recognize the new Christian nation in Bosnia. The false prophet of ch. 19 should not to be confused with the two false prophets of ch. 14 who back the antichrist in the 42 months of great tribulation (known as WW II).

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#1. To: interpreter (#0)

first of all because the history books say Jesus returned in 312 AD.

The name of the 5th horseman is "Word of God" which signifies that the 5th horseman is a Slav. Slav is short for "Slovo" which means Word of God.

(1) The history books do not say that Jesus returned in 312 AD. Some particular book somewhere written by a nut might say it, but the history books don't. Some nut in upstate New York wrote a book that said angels gave him golden plates that he copied. Do you believe that? Another nut wrote Dianetics and people believe that. Do you? "It is written..." doesn't mean anything important. What I've written right here is "Written", and it is actually more useful, authoritative, and true than the book Joe Smith wrote or the book that L. Ron Hubbard wrote. And if you're reading a history book that said that Jesus returned in 312 AD, you'd be better off reading something else.

(2) "Slav" is not short for "Slovo". Slovo means word, but "Slav" means glory. The "Slavs" are the "Glorious ones", not the "words". The Russian cruiser "Slava" is not named "Word", it is named "Glory".

(3) Slobodan Milosevich was a petty tyrant in a backwater corner of the world. He did his acts, right and wrong, and now he is dead, having achieved nothing other than accelerate the breakup of a small, poor and unimportant country.

(4) Bill and Hillary Clinton are not the anti-Christ. They're just people. Sinful people. Nothing more.

Really. Come down off the ledge. People have been writing this sort of over-the-top stuff about petty despots and backwater places since the First Century. They are patently absurd.

And in the end it doesn't really matter whether you die in the ending of the world or die of a heart attack on your couch, does it? Either way, you're dead, and your spirit moves on to the next thing.

Essentially, if you think that Serbia, or America, or any plot of real estate except MAYBE Jerusalem (and probably not even that), has any cosmic significance now, you're just not reading the actual, real Bible correctly. Spend your effort doing that.

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-05-06   8:43:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: interpreter (#0)

Seriously, what is this pseudo religious crap

paraclete  posted on  2016-05-06   9:24:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Vicomte13 (#1)

(1) The history books do not say that Jesus returned in 312 AD. Some particular book somewhere written by a nut might say it, but the history books don't. Some nut in upstate New York wrote a book that said angels gave him golden plates that he copied. Do you believe that? Another nut wrote Dianetics and people believe that. Do you? "It is written..." doesn't mean anything important. What I've written right here is "Written", and it is actually more useful, authoritative, and true than the book Joe Smith wrote or the book that L. Ron Hubbard wrote. And if you're reading a history book that said that Jesus returned in 312 AD, you'd be better off reading something else.

Every world history textbook in the world, or at least every one that I have read, says that Jesus returned in 312AD on Oct. 27th when the sign of Christ appeared in the sky and Jesus appeared to St. Constantine and said "By this, conquer." They call that day the turning point in history because ever since that day Christian nations have been the dominant force on earth.

interpreter  posted on  2016-05-06   10:00:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: Vicomte13 (#1)

Essentially, if you think that Serbia, or America, or any plot of real estate except MAYBE Jerusalem (and probably not even that), has any cosmic significance now, you're just not reading the actual, real Bible correctly. Spend your effort doing that.

I suggest you read the Bible.

America, founded by George Washington who rode a pale horse, is the 4th horseman to rule the earth for Jesus. Our weapons bring hell and death to His enemies.

Serbia, like I said, will be the 5th horseman to rule the earth and will rule with a rod of iron.

interpreter  posted on  2016-05-06   10:08:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: Vicomte13 (#1) (Edited)

Bill and Hillary Clinton are not the anti-Christ. They're just people. Sinful people. Nothing more.

I didn't say Bill Clinton is the anti-Christ. The anti-Christ was Hitler. I said Bill Clinton (and his followers) is/are the false prophet of chapter 19 who leads Satan's forces against the 5th horseman.

interpreter  posted on  2016-05-06   10:17:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Vicomte13 (#1)

And in the end it doesn't really matter whether you die in the ending of the world or die of a heart attack on your couch, does it? Either way, you're dead, and your spirit moves on to the next thing.

Preach it. Amen.

redleghunter  posted on  2016-05-06   10:35:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: interpreter (#3)

Every world history textbook in the world, or at least every one that I have read, says that Jesus returned in 312AD on Oct. 27th when the sign of Christ appeared in the sky and Jesus appeared to St. Constantine and said "By this, conquer."

Of course you can provide a bibliography for this?

redleghunter  posted on  2016-05-06   10:35:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: redleghunter interpreter (#7)

"Every world history textbook in the world, or at least every one that I have read, says that Jesus returned in 312AD on Oct. 27th when the sign of Christ appeared in the sky and Jesus appeared to St. Constantine and said "By this, conquer."

Of course you can provide a bibliography for this?

Christ APPEARED not returned. Not the first time, not the last.

Certainly it is not in the Bible. Same thing with Battle of Hastings and discovery of America.

I wonder why?

A Pole  posted on  2016-05-06   10:48:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: redleghunter, interpreter (#7)

"Every world history textbook in the world, or at least every one that I have read, says that Jesus returned in 312AD on Oct. 27th when the sign of Christ appeared in the sky and Jesus appeared to St. Constantine and said "By this, conquer."

Of course you can provide a bibliography for this?

Christ APPEARED not returned. Not the first time, not the last.

Certainly it is not in the Bible. Same thing with Battle of Hastings and discovery of America.

I wonder why?

A Pole  posted on  2016-05-06   10:48:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: redleghunter (#7)

Of course you can provide a bibliography for this?

Every world history textbook used in Texas schools (at least in the 60's) where I grew up.

Or you can read about it on the web at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Milvian_Bridge

interpreter  posted on  2016-05-06   10:50:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: A Pole (#8)

Christ APPEARED not returned. Not the first time, not the last.

Certainly it is not in the Bible. Same thing with Battle of Hastings and discovery of America.

I wonder why?

Every important world event of the last 1900 years is in the Revelation of the future.

interpreter  posted on  2016-05-06   10:56:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: Vicomte13 (#1)

You deny possibility of Christ appearing after His Resurrection or His Ascension? He appeared to the persecutor of Christians - future St Paul to turn him into protector. Certainly He could appear to the great Roman Emperor to inspire him to turn his pagan hostile Empire into Christian one, source of many Christians kingdoms and crucible of Christian civilization.

=====

Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord’s disciples. He went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”

“Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked.

“I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.

A Pole  posted on  2016-05-06   11:04:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: interpreter (#11)

Certainly it is not in the Bible. Same thing with Battle of Hastings and discovery of America.

I wonder why?

Every important world event of the last 1900 years is in the Revelation of the future.

Show me these two. And creating of KJV. And flight to the Moon, please.

Apparently many today's events are predicted like globalization and marking people so they can buy or sell. But why would God inspire the author of Revelation to make his book into encyclopedia?

A Pole  posted on  2016-05-06   11:10:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: interpreter (#4)

I suggest you read the Bible.

What is the first word of the Bible?

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-05-06   11:32:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: A Pole (#13)

Show me these two. And creating of KJV. And flight to the Moon, please.

That's easy.

King James, who rode an English black racing horse and founded Great Britain, also gave us the King James Bible.

And while the flights to the moon may not be mentioned, the colonization of Mars a thousand years from now is.

interpreter  posted on  2016-05-06   11:33:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: interpreter (#3)

Every world history textbook in the world, or at least every one that I have read

You have read more than one world history textbook that said that Jesus returned on October 27th, 312 AD?

I do not believe that you have ever read a "world history textbook" that said such a thing.

Nor do I believe that every world history textbook that you have read says that. To wit, you read at least two world history textbooks, one in middle school and one in high school. Neither of them said that Jesus returned on October 27th, 312 AD.

You have said that, interpreting a miracle.

Please cite for me the name, author and publisher of the "world history textbooks" that say that Jesus returned on October 27th, 312 AD.

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-05-06   11:37:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: A Pole (#12)

You deny possibility of Christ appearing after His Resurrection or His Ascension?

I said nothing of the sort.

I deny the totality of what was written in the post I analyzed. I deny that "every world history text" that writer has ever read said that Jesus Christ returned on October 27th, 312 AD.

Perhaps Jesus himself spread out that banner for Constantine, assuming that happened at all, but I think it is more likely that divine messengers did it, and Jesus wasn't flying through the clouds as a flagbearer.

And yes, it makes a difference.

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-05-06   11:40:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: A Pole (#9)

Christ APPEARED not returned. Not the first time, not the last.

Certainly it is not in the Bible. Same thing with Battle of Hastings and discovery of America.

I wonder why?

Within the context of the OP, he considers the appearing as THE Second Coming. That is what me et. al. are addressing.

redleghunter  posted on  2016-05-06   11:40:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: A Pole, Vicomte13 (#12)

You deny possibility of Christ appearing after His Resurrection or His Ascension? He appeared to the persecutor of Christians - future St Paul to turn him into protector. Certainly He could appear to the great Roman Emperor to inspire him to turn his pagan hostile Empire into Christian one, source of many Christians kingdoms and crucible of Christian civilization.

That's two folks (me now Vic) you totally misread.

Note interpreter equates the AD 312 appearance as THE second coming.

redleghunter  posted on  2016-05-06   12:02:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: interpreter (#15)

the colonization of Mars a thousand years from now is.

This should be good.

redleghunter  posted on  2016-05-06   12:04:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: redleghunter (#20)

the colonization of Mars a thousand years from now is.

This should be good.

I cannot wait that long :(

A Pole  posted on  2016-05-06   12:37:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: redleghunter, Vicomte13, interpreter (#19) (Edited)

5th horseman must be a Slav? It eliminates many people. Especially Basques who are different.

A Pole  posted on  2016-05-06   12:43:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: Vicomte13 (#17)

deny the totality of what was written in the post I analyzed. I deny that "every world history text" that writer has ever read said that Jesus Christ returned on October 27th, 312 AD.

Perhaps Jesus himself spread out that banner for Constantine, assuming that happened at all, but I think it is more likely that divine messengers did it, and Jesus wasn't flying through the clouds as a flagbearer.

And yes, it makes a difference.

banner???

The sign of Christ was a "Chi Rho" or XP, the first two letters of Christ in Greek. It was an unusual alignment of the visible planets that formed a cross or X with a couple stars in Capricorn. Most of the P is always there. It can easily be seen with any star-tracking software. Just set the date for Oct. 27th, 312 AD.

interpreter  posted on  2016-05-06   12:56:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: A Pole (#22)

Especially Basques who are different.

Yes we are. Very different. "Special", even.

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-05-06   13:39:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: interpreter (#23)

What is the first word of the Bible?

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-05-06   14:05:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: Vicomte13 (#25) (Edited)

What is the first word of the Bible?

In (in English)? But I suppose you mean In the beginning in Hebrew?

I did a quick Google of Basques and according to wikipedia Basques have been around since the beginning of civilization. Is that what you mean?

And it says that about half of Basques are Christians and the other half are atheists or agnostic. Which are you?

interpreter  posted on  2016-05-06   16:16:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: redleghunter (#20)

the colonization of Mars a thousand years from now is. This should be good.

The Revelation says Christians will colonize "a new earth without any sea" yet it will have enough water (in an underground river?) to support a huge human habitat said to be 1377 miles high, which happens to be exactly the right height for a space elevator on Mars, that allows for easy travel to and from the stars.

interpreter  posted on  2016-05-06   16:30:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: interpreter, redleghunter (#10)

Every world history textbook used in Texas schools (at least in the 60's) where I grew up.

Or you can read about it on the web at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Milvian_Bridge

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Milvian_Bridge

The accounts of the two contemporary authors, though not entirely consistent, have been merged into a popular notion of Constantine seeing the Chi-Rho sign on the evening before the battle. Both authors agree that the sign was not widely understandable to denote Christ (although among the Christians, it was already being used in the catacombs along with other special symbols to mark and/or decorate Christian tombs). Its first imperial appearance is on a Constantinian silver coin from c. 317, which proves that Constantine did use the sign at that time, though not very prominently. He made more extensive use of the Chi-Rho and the Labarum later, during the conflict with Licinius.

Some have considered the vision in a solar context (e.g., as a solar halo phenomenon called a Sun dog), which may have preceded the Christian beliefs later expressed by Constantine. Coins of Constantine depicting him as the companion of a solar deity were minted as late as 313, the year following the battle.

Seriously, some disagreeing dudes merging a popular notion of Constantine seeing a sign, is historical proof of the return of Christ on October 27, 312 A.D.???

nolu chan  posted on  2016-05-06   17:16:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: nolu chan (#28)

The accounts of the two contemporary authors, though not entirely consistent, have been merged into a popular notion of Constantine seeing the Chi-Rho sign on the evening before the battle. Both authors agree that the sign was not widely understandable to denote Christ (although among the Christians, it was already being used in the catacombs along with other special symbols to mark and/or decorate Christian tombs). Its first imperial appearance is on a Constantinian silver coin from c. 317, which proves that Constantine did use the sign at that time, though not very prominently. He made more extensive use of the Chi-Rho and the Labarum later, during the conflict with Licinius. Some have considered the vision in a solar context (e.g., as a solar halo phenomenon called a Sun dog), which may have preceded the Christian beliefs later expressed by Constantine. Coins of Constantine depicting him as the companion of a solar deity were minted as late as 313, the year following the battle.

Seriously, some disagreeing dudes merging a popular notion of Constantine seeing a sign, is historical proof of the return of Christ on October 27, 312 A.D.???

Actually it says they are "not entirely consistent" meaning they are mostly consistent, that Constantine saw a Chi Rho in the clouds on Oct 27 312 AD, and thereafter put it on his coins and stuff. You need to read the entire article.

interpreter  posted on  2016-05-06   17:54:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: All (#0)

Also deserving mention is Britain, France, Germany and Italy, who voted with the US to recognize the new Muslim/Satanic nation in Kosovo while at the same time refusing to recognize the new Christian nation in Bosnia.

The news today is, London has now elected a Muslim mayor which exemplifies what I have said about Britain being a false prophet.

interpreter  posted on  2016-05-06   18:11:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: interpreter (#30)

Britain being a false prophet

"Britain" isn't a prophet. Britain isn't even a person. It's an island, a clod of earth in the sea. Nothing more.

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-05-06   18:24:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: interpreter (#26)

What is the first word of the Bible?

In (in English)? But I suppose you mean In the beginning in Hebrew?

You rounded on me and told me to "read my Bible", as though I haven't.

Given the depth of my studies in the Scriptures, I found this irritating, so I replied with a direct question.

It isn't a simple question, for it requires you to decide what the Bible IS, how you know, and think through language issues.

And in the process of doing that, perhaps your eyes will open to the reality that crazy theories based on nuanced words in a single English translation is probably not the way a man should invest his religious energies.

Of course you're free to do as you please, as is you're right. But the reason I challenge some of this nonsense is not because I am ignorant of the Bible, as your suggestion to me to "read the Bible" implied, but the contrary: because I have, I recognize nonsense that isn't in it.

I'm actually trying to help you, not pick on you. Jesus instructed his followers not to spend their time dwelling on signs, but to do what he said. You will find a better and more rewarding relationship with God if you do that with your religious time, as opposed to studying and believing in nonsense.

Let's say, for a moment, that everything you believe about prophesy, etc., is utterly true, that you see the future, and the identity of horsemen, etc. You have cracked the code and can prophesy!

So what. Balaam was a true prophet. So was Caiaphas. He prophesied. Eli was a prophet, but God broke his neck. Being a seer, knowing, will avail you nothing if you don't do what Jesus said to do. Conversely, being utterly ignorant of prophesy will not harm you at all, as long as you do what Jesus said to do.

That is the place to invest your religious money: read what JESUS said to do, and do it. If you're spending that time instead on the "game of prophesies", you're investing your time badly. Indeed, the sense of superiority that this secret, esoteric knowledge of things hidden gives you is more of a moral hazard to you than not knowing any of it.

And in any case, if your nuances regarding prophesy depend upon nuances of 17th Century English, then you should know that you're wrong about what the words mean.

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-05-06   18:36:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: Vicomte13 (#32)

And in any case, if your nuances regarding prophesy depend upon nuances of 17th Century English, then you should know that you're wrong about what the words mean.

My interpretation of the Revelation is based on the original Greek text, and not on any English nuances. I have found that most English Bibles are translated wrong, especially when it comes to the Revelation.

interpreter  posted on  2016-05-06   19:04:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: Vicomte13 (#31)

"Britain" isn't a prophet. Britain isn't even a person. It's an island, a clod of earth in the sea. Nothing more.

Whole nations can be a false prophet.

interpreter  posted on  2016-05-06   19:12:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: interpreter (#33)

My interpretation of the Revelation is based on the original Greek text, and not on any English nuances. I have found that most English Bibles are translated wrong, especially when it comes to the Revelation.

So you are calling God a liar.

You're a very foolish person.

A K A Stone  posted on  2016-05-06   19:28:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: interpreter (#27)

You have boldly gone where no man has gone before.

redleghunter  posted on  2016-05-07   1:46:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: redleghunter, Vicomte13, interpreter (#36)

colonization of Mars

You have boldly gone where no man has gone before.

As it was reported (not in the Bible yet), the first man flight to Mars might be a one way trip because of technical and financial constraints.

We need bold men!

A Pole  posted on  2016-05-07   2:19:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: interpreter (#33)

My interpretation of the Revelation is based on the original Greek text,, and not on any English nuances. I have found that most English Bibles are translated wrong, especially when it comes to the Revelation.

Two questions:

(1) Which Greek manuscript tradition, specifically? Patriarchal Text? Erasmus Text? Alexandrian Text?

(2) Diabazete koine ellenike?

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-05-07   8:13:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: Vicomte13 (#38)

They're always shocked to learn "the original Greek text" is actually a large set of varying texts. Then they usually continue referring to that imaginary "original Greek text" anyway.

Roscoe  posted on  2016-05-07   8:22:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Roscoe (#39)

I'm not hostile to going through Greek texts, which really means looking at careful translations into English of Greek texts, because nobody speaks Koine Greek.

I find the differences in the manuscript traditions to be interesting, because in a few cases the differences are material. The difference in canon between Eastern Orthodox and Catholic don't make a tinker's dam of difference, but the presence of Enoch, in particular, in the Ethiopian Orthodox Canon really does change either one's perception of what the Scripture is, or one's perception of human history.

And of course the different views of what Scripture is between Catholics/Orthodox, on the one hand, and Protestants on the other, makes for an interesting divergence.

I'm a Catholic who remembers that the Orthodox and Catholic Church were one, and that when they were, Enoch was iScripture in part of the Catholic Church without causing a schism, so I consider the theological world with and without that text.

And I find Sola Scriptura to be an immensely powerful tool, though for a different purpose than Protestants use it.

Certainly it's a fun tool for debate, but I find it useful in parsing the Scripture itself, for reasons that are of great importance to my approach, but that would probably bore most readers to tears.

For example, the fact that covenants are contracts I knew generically, but that the contracts between God and men in the Bible actually have the terms of the contract within them, most particularly the PARTIES to the contract, suddenly brings clarity to one of thorniest issues of Scripture, an issue that the Apostles themselves fought over.

When one sets aside all tradition and just READS the Mosaic Covenant as exactly what it is - a contract between parties, one immediately realizes that none of the laws in it, not any of them, ever applied to anybody but circumcised descendants of the Hebrews at Mt Sinai still living in the land of Canaan and its environs. It's a specific and quite narrow contract.

The early Christians of the Bible were almost all Jews, and so THEY had an immense amount of difficulty taking what was for THEM a contract and a binding law, and realizing that that law, which had been their religion for 1500 years, had nothing to do with eternal life. They never quite got there. Instead, we have Paul and James wrestling with "The Law" and coming to different conclusions, and the Council of Jerusalem appearing to change the Law, and Jesus both saying that not a dot of the Law would change while then apparently changing vast swathes of it.

This is real, non-trivial tension, until you realize that the law of Sinai pertained only to Hebrews, in the land of Israel, and only promised them a farm, and had nothing whatever to do with life after death or final judgement. Jesus' New Covenant did not replace the old one, it's the ONLY covenant with Gentiles (other than the covenant of Noah, which is even with the animals). And for Jews, it's the only covenant that promises life after death and life in the City of God.

Christians have been conflicted about "law" since the First Century, because all of the anxiety of Jews on the subject of THEIR Law, which DID come from God, and its relationship to what Jesus said. But if one is very austere in applying Sola Scriptura, reading ONLY the text alone and completely disregarding two millennia of Christian theological tradition struggling with the question, one discovers that the answer is literally RIGHT THERE in the text of the covenant itself.

Of course, THAT means that the Ten Commandments never applied to anybody but Hebrews in Israel, and still don't. (Of course "don't kill" and the like are indeed commandments of God that apply to all who want eternal life, but THOSE come to us through Noah, or through Jesus. They are IN the Mosaic covenant, but they are not law for the world BECAUSE OF the Mosaic covenant - because the Mosaci covenant never applied to anybody but Israelites, either before or after Jesus.

That's what the text actually SAYS, read precisely. And it answers the question of "which law" or "ANY law" decisively. Unfortunately, that 2000 years of Christian tradition, based on struggling with the JEWISH perspective on the problem contained in Scripture written by Jews, does not come to the same conclusion. The Catholic/Orthodox conclusion is that the lawmaking power was transferred from the Temple to the Church, and the Church decides. The Protestant conclusion is that the Law of Moses DOES apply, but we're excused from its punishments if we follow Jesus.

Both traditions are wrong. The text says what applies to what, and makes everything clear...but in the process vastly diminishes the authority of two millennia of Christian theologians and saints on the subject.

I'm fine with that, but most Christians are not. Indeed, some call me Satanic for practicing Sola Scriptura TOO closely, as my form does not give any attention to what other Christians have said about the text.

So, putting this all together with what Interpreter is speaking about on THIS thread, I am actually interested in doing real Sola Scriptura with him on the Greek. But on the way I already know I am going to have to deal with extra-Scriptural traditions of what Scripture IS, that we're going to have to use the text he prefers. I'm fine doing that, but only with the understanding that in doing so we have made a completely arbitrary decision based on a preference, and not on the authority of Scripture.

Sola Scriptura does not, and cannot, tell you which books and which documents are Scripture.

I've heard the argument made that Scripture DOES tell you, because Jesus and the Apostles only cited the books in Scripture. That's bogus, unless of course ENOCH is Scripture, because Jesus quoted Enoch over 10 times, Peter alluded directly to it, and Jude called it by name.

The books of Jasher and Jubilees are quoted in Scripture, and those texts are also available to us, and are in the Ethiopian Canon, always have been, and of course the Ethiopian Orthodox Church was founded through the Apostle Philip, so it has the same age and authority as the Greek Orthodox of Roman Catholic Church - they all were once united and the presence of those books in the Ethiopian Scriptures was not a source of Schism.

Most people want to accept their own cultural tradition (English, Protestant) as being de facto correct and start from there. But I see no basis for giving the English civilization any sort of defensce when it comes to morality or theological authority. England has been a violent society since Roman times, and has careened from one sort of vicious immorality to another. If I had to pick a race on which to stake the fate of my soul, it would not be the English! Since most Americans' religions come out of England, the traditions of the English Church are accepted without thought. I have no problem with that, as long as it stays latent. When it becomes the basis for the assertion of authority - the "British Israel' movement, then it becomes a preposterous joke, and I won't let that one go.

The problem starts when somebody starts to teach a doctrine as important that I don't see in Scripture, or in the broad Christian traditions. That is what I see happening here.

But it doesn't make me angry at all - people come at faith and Scripture in their own ways - until somebody takes a pop at MY head because I don't think like they do about religion. THEN I am provoked.

Here, I was provoked. I was told to go "read the Bible". Well, I have. Many times through, and studied it. So if my lack of understanding of a subject is based on having MISSED something - well, that's interesting, SHOW ME.

That's where I am here. I think that the book of revelation is the most important book of the Bible, but NOT because of the wild imagery. Rather, because it's the only book of the New Testament that God DICTATED, and that in which God insisted on perfection of transmission - 'whoever adds or subtracts a word is damned. It is the only book in which Jesus gives a list of what will get you damned to fire, twice! It's the only book that spells out exactly what happens to us at and after final judgment, and the criteria for being thrown into the fire. It's THE lawbook for distinguishing mortal sin from lesser sins. And it also is the book in which Jesus, speaking directly, demonstrates how Christians can lose their favor with God and be rejected, and how they can regain it.

THAT is the theological essence of Revelation that makes it the greatest of all of the books. It's the only extensive lawgiving of Jesus, and it all comes AFTER the Resurrectiona nd Ascenion, from Jesus in power in the Throne Room of God. He spoke in parables on Earth. In Revelation, he speaks bluntly and clearly.

But men get caught up in the imagery and look into it to divine the future. God says earlier in Scripture that this is a sterile exercise at best, and given what Jesus shows about the City of God and life after death and judgment in Revelation, it seems like a lot of effort on low-yield ore.

However, others might same the same thing to me about my relentless and detailed study of the Jewish Law even AFTER I've said that it never applied to Christians, and it doesn't apply to Jews when it come to eternal life - that's a different covenant.

Putting the best spin on it, it is important to interpreter to interpret Revelation in great detail. It strengthens his faith. That's ok. I wouldn't be digging in but for the "read your Bible" hit.

Since I do read my Bible, I'd like to see exactly what he is looking at, in the text he's using, that makes him think that what he says is there. I'm genuinely interested.

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-05-07   9:43:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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