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politics and politicians
See other politics and politicians Articles

Title: Trump Is No Pro-Lifer
Source: First Things
URL Source: http://www.firstthings.com/web-excl ... ge&utm_campaign=partnertraffic
Published: Mar 31, 2016
Author: Robert P. George
Post Date: 2016-03-31 10:14:26 by Tooconservative
Keywords: None
Views: 3959
Comments: 33

When candidates for high office are faking it in order to persuade a party's base that, appearances and past record to the contrary notwithstanding, they really, really are “with the program,” they step into dangerous territory. They need to say what the base wants to hear. Indeed, they need to sound like one of the faithful.

But since they are faking it, and not actually speaking from conviction, the risk is grave that they will say something that blows their cover. Indeed, the risk is always there that they will say something that sounds to true believers like a caricature or burlesque of the philosophy they are purporting to embrace.

Do you recall when it happened to Mitt Romney?

In responding to a challenge to the authenticity of his claim to be a true conservative, he proclaimed himself to be “severely conservative.” At that instant, every conservative in the country knew the former Massachusetts governor was faking it. For no conservative ever had, or ever would, describe conservatism (or his own conservatism) as “severe.”

Indeed Governor Romney had spoken of conservatives as liberals speak of conservatives, not as conservatives speak of (or understand) themselves. He might as well have confessed outright to being a phony. The effect would have been no different.

Now, predictably, Donald Trump has done it.

The Republican base is pro-life—solidly, fervently so. To win the Party's nomination, Trump—a life-long abortion supporter and Planned Parenthood enthusiast—therefore had to pretend to have experienced a Pauline conversion to the pro-life cause. To make sure everyone knew how deep and sincere his conversion was, he yesterday stated that women who have abortions should be punished. But in saying this, he gave himself away, just as Mitt Romney had done.

Most pro-lifers and the entire mainstream pro-life movement oppose, and have always opposed, punishing women who seek abortions. Their goal is, and has been for as long as we've had a pro-life movement, restoring the historic laws of abortion (which were overturned in Roe v. Wade) that punished abortionists, and did not punish women.

In fact, Mr. Trump seems to have stumbled onto the best possible way of signaling to true pro-lifers that he is not one of them. He has inadvertantly embraced an idea that is falsely attributed to pro-life citizens by their opponents to weaken the pro-life cause by tarring pro-lifers as punitive, vindictive people who would send women, many of whom are desperate and frightened, and some of whom are acting under pressure or even coercion in seeking abortions, to prison.

Mr. Trump evidently wants to show us how genuine his conversion is by depicting himself as severely pro-life. But pro-lifers are compassionate, seeking the good of unborn children and their mothers, never pitting them or their interests against each other. We are interested in saving babies, not punishing mothers. And we know that we don't need to punish mothers to save babies.

What Mr. Trump has succeeded in showing pro-life Americans is that he is not one of us.

Robert P. George is the McCormick Professor of Jurisprudence at Princeton University.

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#1. To: TooConservative (#0)

Most pro-lifers and the entire mainstream pro-life movement oppose, and have always opposed, punishing women who seek abortions.

Doublethink.

Roscoe  posted on  2016-03-31   10:16:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Roscoe (#1)

Doublethink.

Perhaps redundant. I think this was written rather hastily. The construction of the concluding sentence was clumsy. Of course, he is a grad of Swarthmore, Harvard, Harvard Divinity (Social Policy), and Oxford. IOW, a big brain type. He must have been angry to write a few of those less-readable sentences.

Isn't it time for you to point out that this guy is undoubtedly a good buddy of Cruz's? He became an instructor at Princeton in '84 and Cruz didn't graduate Princeton until the early Nineties.

He's also the primary big brain for the American pro-life movement, has been for a long time.

Tooconservative  posted on  2016-03-31   10:33:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: TooConservative (#2)

Perhaps redundant.

Not at all. Just doublethink.

Roscoe  posted on  2016-03-31   10:35:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: Roscoe (#1)

"Doublethink."

Now, now. How big would the pro-life movement be if their members actually believed that abortion is murder and the mother is a murderer?

You might fill one church with them. If it was a small church.

They need this loophole.

misterwhite  posted on  2016-03-31   10:42:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: TooConservative (#0)

To make sure everyone knew how deep and sincere his conversion was, he yesterday stated that women who have abortions should be punished. But in saying this, he gave himself away,

Actually, what he did is expose "pro-lifers" like you to be unprincipled.

You don't believe abortion is murder. For you, it's some sort of weird political game you play: treat the doctor as a murderer and punish him, but pretend that the mother is not primarily responsible for the murder - by showing up and paying for it - and asserting she should not be punished?

Your position is stupid. It's stupid, and weak, and illogical.

NO WONDER "pro-life" has been such an ineffective joke for 30 years, when people like you have been manning the ranks. You're the Italian Army - why even bother to show up? You've lost before you started.

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-03-31   10:43:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: misterwhite (#4)

They need this loophole.

True. But TooCuckservative doesn't. He's pro-abort.

Roscoe  posted on  2016-03-31   10:48:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Vicomte13 (#5)

You don't believe abortion is murder. For you, it's some sort of weird political game you play: treat the doctor as a murderer and punish him, but pretend that the mother is not primarily responsible for the murder - by showing up and paying for it - and asserting she should not be punished?

No, I am a mainstream pro-lifer.

You are a lone extremist.

Can you cite a single Catholic priest or nun or bishop or pope that would support your position of executing the mother for aborticide?

Nope. Not even among the most radical of the Catholic pro-life orgs.

Catholics don't buy what you're selling. Neither do the big pro-life orgs.

You're just a Lone Ranger, a wacko, and an extremist.

Tooconservative  posted on  2016-03-31   10:49:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: TooConservative (#7)

I am a mainstream pro-lifer.

You joo-hating pro-aborts always claim to be "mainstream."

Roscoe  posted on  2016-03-31   10:50:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: TooConservative (#7)

You're just a Lone Ranger, a wacko, and an extremist.

And you're just a sad old loser.

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-03-31   10:50:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Roscoe (#6)

True. But TooCuckservative doesn't. He's pro-abort.

Namecalling, making up lies, and talking about sodomy seem to be the extent of your debating skills.

Tooconservative  posted on  2016-03-31   10:51:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Vicomte13 (#9)

And you're just a sad old loser.

Far from it.

Tooconservative  posted on  2016-03-31   10:52:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: TooConservative (#0)

Trump Is No Pro-Lifer

Neither are you.

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-03-31   11:11:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: Vicomte13 (#12)

Descending into namecalling, along with the rest of the Trumpkins?

Care to say something about the Joos and the homos while you're at it? It seems de rigueur for the Trump fanbois.

Tooconservative  posted on  2016-03-31   11:18:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: Vicomte13, Roscoe, misterwhite, TooConservative (#5)

From the article: "would send women, many of whom are desperate and frightened, and some of whom are acting under pressure or even coercion in seeking abortions, to prison."

ConservingFreedom  posted on  2016-03-31   11:22:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: ConservingFreedom (#14)

"From the article: "would send women, many of whom are desperate and frightened, and some of whom are acting under pressure or even coercion in seeking abortions, to prison."

Funny. The article never references Trump's retraction.

misterwhite  posted on  2016-03-31   11:47:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: misterwhite (#15)

Funny. The article never references Trump's retraction.

Neither do the fresh fundraising letters and tweets sent out yesterday about Trump's statement by Hitlery, NARAL, Planned Parenthood, etc. The enemies of the unborn are rejoicing.

Tooconservative  posted on  2016-03-31   11:50:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: ConservingFreedom (#14)

From the article: "would send women, many of whom are desperate and frightened, and some of whom are acting under pressure or even coercion in seeking abortions, to prison."

You cut to the gist of why Trump's blunder is so offensive.

Tooconservative  posted on  2016-03-31   11:54:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: TooConservative (#0)

The Republican base is pro-life—solidly, fervently so.

If that is true, it certainly hasn't been demonstrated by a congress held by a majority of supposedly pro-life Republicans. Even when combined with a supposedly pro-life Bush, what changed?

Nothing.

There is no argument that Trump was pro-choice. He has said as much. He says he is a relatively recent convert, which is exactly what the pro-life movement should want from all people pro-choice. Apparently he hasn't thought through the issue thoroughly on the point of a legal ban and punishment, but from the dialog with Matthews, the characterization of Trump's position of punishing women is misconstrued. As I mentioned before, it seems Trump was simply naturally applying the logic that violating any ban needs to include punishment or it's simply not a ban.

It's interesting to compare the abortion issue with illegal immigration. Conservatives want to ban illegal immigration, but if so, what should be the punishment? Certainly mainstream media doesn't want to punish illegal immigration, in effect, doing away with the word "illegal". I'm sure that term is all but politically incorrect and will be treated as such at the first opportunity.

Trump is showing an element in this that I do not like in him, and that's the authoritarian streak he has. He's not an advocate of civil liberty, and as an authoritarian, punishing anyone violating any ban is a necessity. That seems the context of his statement.

However, what I do like in Trump is a demonstrated is an ability to change his views when he comes upon new information. This is something all normal people do and should do, if they want to actually adapt to now situations and take advantage of new opportunities. Those ordinary people who never change their minds no matter what changes around them are the same ones who never leave home when flood waters rise or a volcano starts erupting. Politicians who never change their minds often have special interests they are sworn to. Trump is neither of these.

Sure that makes him a bit of a loose cannon if he gets the presidency. He'll do what he thinks is right at the time. But what, pray tell, is the alternative? Hillary or Cruz? With Trump, there are no certainties. We do get certainties with the other two, but would you prefer those certainties to Trumps uncertainties?

I don't. Nothing has changed in the USA in the conservative cause for many years in spite of having control of both Congress and the presidency. Nothing. I don't even know why they call it a conservative "movement" because nothing moves with supposed conservatives. Nothing.

The USA is in serious trouble, getting more serious with each year and presidential term. The debt is huge, and growing larger, the economy is going the way the Japanese economy has been for the past 20 years due to mismanagment. Trump is the best option for dealing with sour economics, rooting out corruption, and making the fed gov accountable to the people (I'm expecting declassifications of myriads of docs that are classified only for political purposes to hide criminal activity). Pro-lifers can complain that abortion is still legal and that's fine, but dissing Trump in favor of Hillary or Cruz is not going t make a pro-life difference. And if Cruz is as pro-life as W Bush was, then we can look forward to millions more dying in needless wars similar to those that died under W's egotistical stint in Iraq.

Pinguinite  posted on  2016-03-31   12:10:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: Vicomte13 (#5)

You don't believe abortion is murder. For you, it's some sort of weird political game you play: treat the doctor as a murderer and punish him, but pretend that the mother is not primarily responsible for the murder - by showing up and paying for it - and asserting she should not be punished?

In practical terms, outlawing elective abortion is problematic for this exact reason. If it is outlawed, then there has to be legal punishment for all (both) participants. And if we have an abortion war like we do the drug war, then the results might be similar. Things move underground and more people die.

My personal take is that the love of the mother is needed for the baby to live. And if that love is not there, the law cannot be a substitute. Pro-life efforts may be better directed to permanent, ongoing education and enlightenment of women both at risk of unwanted pregnancy and those already pregnant. In practical terms, this is the most effective way of reducing the abortion rate. Efforts directed toward changing the law are likely futile, wasted efforts not spent in public education that would be more effective at reducing the number of abortions.

Laws cannot create a perfect world. Never has and never will.

Pinguinite  posted on  2016-03-31   12:32:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: Pinguinite (#19)

If it is outlawed, then there has to be legal punishment for all (both) participants.

Why?

ConservingFreedom  posted on  2016-03-31   12:59:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Pinguinite (#18) (Edited)

If that is true, it certainly hasn't been demonstrated by a congress held by a majority of supposedly pro-life Republicans. Even when combined with a supposedly pro-life Bush, what changed?

You ignore the federal partial-birth abortion ban. While it had mixed results, the Court would not allow any more than that. There were many good-faith attempts by Republicans, at the federal level and out in the states.

However, what I do like in Trump is a demonstrated is an ability to change his views when he comes upon new information.

Yes, Donaldo is courageous to flipflip while you admire his manliness and wisdom.

You have to be kidding.

Blundering into giving the enemy a propaganda victory because you're too stupid or lazy to do any study at all (despite an abundant record of libmedia playing 'gotcha' with GOP candidates, inevitable in a Chrissy interview) is not really admirable in any way.

Any other candidate did this, you'd be mocking him. But when Trump does it, you think he's brilliant. But he isn't. And you end up with egg on your face as the Dems ramp up their War On Women propaganda to tar every GOP candidate with it.

Tooconservative  posted on  2016-03-31   13:50:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: ConservingFreedom (#20)

If it is outlawed, then there has to be legal punishment for all (both) participants.

Why?

Because without legal penalties for violating a law, the law is meaningless. Ergo, a law "banning" abortion would be nothing more than a statute that says elective abortion is a bad thing.

If that's all you want, then fine, but don't say it's a ban.

Pinguinite  posted on  2016-03-31   14:30:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: Roscoe (#1)

Most pro-lifers and the entire mainstream pro-life movement oppose, and have always opposed, punishing women who seek abortions. Doublethink.

Then they must really be pro death and lying.

Morons like TC want to say it is illegal and just pretend it is.

What other thing that is illegal doesn't have a punishment.

What a bunch of wack jobs.

Maybe it shouldn't be the death penalty. But there has to be consequences or it is meaningless rhetoric.

A K A Stone  posted on  2016-03-31   14:32:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Vicomte13 (#5)

Actually, what he did is expose "pro-lifers" like you to be unprincipled.

TC has fallen into the gutter. He just wants to disagree with Trump.

A K A Stone  posted on  2016-03-31   14:34:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: TooConservative (#13)

Descending into namecalling, along with the rest of the Trumpkins?

That is all you do day and night here.

A K A Stone  posted on  2016-03-31   14:35:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: Pinguinite (#22)

without legal penalties for violating a law, the law is meaningless.

That premise does not imply your conclusion that "If it is outlawed, then there has to be legal punishment for all (both) participants." So long as one party in every abortion is subject to punishment, the law is not meaningless.

ConservingFreedom  posted on  2016-03-31   14:35:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: TooConservative (#7)

No, I am a mainstream pro-lifer.

No you are a liar and you are pro abortion.

You already outed yourself. You are quite liberal. You agree with Hillary and Obama that it is the womans choice and they should have no punishment.

Tell me how you would outlaw abortion. What would the wording be.

Neverming you're to stupid and you are pro abortion.

A K A Stone  posted on  2016-03-31   14:36:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: TooConservative (#7)

Can you cite a single Catholic priest or nun or bishop or pope that would support your position of executing the mother for aborticide?

Nope. Not even among the most radical of the Catholic pro-life orgs.

The Catholic religion isn't Christianity.

You don't sound like a christian either.

A K A Stone  posted on  2016-03-31   14:38:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: Pinguinite (#18)

There is no argument that Trump was pro-choice. He has said as much. He says he is a relatively recent convert, which is exactly what the pro-life movement should want from all people pro-choice. Apparently he hasn't thought through the issue thoroughly on the point of a legal ban and punishment, but from the dialog with Matthews, the characterization of Trump's position of punishing women is misconstrued. As I mentioned before, it seems Trump was simply naturally applying the logic that violating any ban needs to include punishment or it's simply not a ban.

It's interesting to compare the abortion issue with illegal immigration. Conservatives want to ban illegal immigration, but if so, what should be the punishment? Certainly mainstream media doesn't want to punish illegal immigration, in effect, doing away with the word "illegal". I'm sure that term is all but politically incorrect and will be treated as such at the first opportunity.

Brilliant point.

A K A Stone  posted on  2016-03-31   14:40:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: Pinguinite (#18)

Sure that makes him a bit of a loose cannon if he gets the presidency. He'll do what he thinks is right at the time.

In the course of the day or on the web debating. Do you ever notice that we aren't always consistent?

A K A Stone  posted on  2016-03-31   14:42:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: ConservingFreedom (#14)

"would send women, many of whom are desperate and frightened, and some of whom are acting under pressure or even coercion in seeking abortions, to prison."

What about the desperate and frightened crack head that kills someone. They shouldn't go to prison should they? They had a bad upbringing and they were broke and needed some money.

I see you are not pro life. You're pro abortion like Hillary.

A K A Stone  posted on  2016-03-31   14:45:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: ConservingFreedom (#26)

That premise does not imply your conclusion that "If it is outlawed, then there has to be legal punishment for all (both) participants." So long as one party in every abortion is subject to punishment, the law is not meaningless.

If they made an exception to cruel and unusual punishment. Maybe that would work.

Like killing the abortionist with a pair of dykes one piece at a time.

That could maybe work. Then fine the woman 100 thousand dollars.

A K A Stone  posted on  2016-03-31   14:48:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: A K A Stone (#31)

What about the desperate and frightened crack head that kills someone. They shouldn't go to prison should they? They had a bad upbringing and they were broke and needed some money.

Which is it: desperate and frightened - or badly brought up and broke? The two have no necessary logical relationship.

I see you are not pro life. You're pro abortion like Hillary.

No, Hillary does not want to punish abortionists.

ConservingFreedom  posted on  2016-03-31   14:55:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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