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Title: How Should Police Stop A Knife-Swinging Laquan On PCP?
Source: [None]
URL Source: https://misadventuresindiversity.wo ... -knife-swinging-laquan-on-pcp/
Published: Nov 25, 2015
Author: Donald Joy
Post Date: 2015-11-25 17:15:06 by no gnu taxes
Keywords: None
Views: 5580
Comments: 44

In the latest high-profile racial railroading of a white policeman for obvious political reasons, it has taken authorities over a full year to decide to charge Chicago cop Jason Van Dyke in the fatal shooting of black 17-year-old Laquan McDonald.

The obviousness of the racial/political theater here is largely due to the fact that the timing of the ridiculous charge — first degree murder — being suddenly announced after all these months, so transparently coincides with the sudden FOIA public release of a police dashcam video of the shooting which, to the untrained eye, looks pretty bad.

The video in question has been in the possession of the authorites this entire time. If it was a bad shoot, especially if so bad as to amount to first degree murder, they should have charged him long ago, apart from the racially ginned-up public and media hysteria wrought by release of the video, no?

As for allegations about the incident itself, there are some gray areas, and some clear-cut lines.

Officers were attempting to apprehend McDonald, who was later determined to have had PCP in his system, after he had been rampaging around the area and using a knife to not only break into cars and other property, but also slashed the tire of a police car when an initial attempt to arrest him failed just moments before he encountered Van Dyke and other officers.

The video shows that McDonald was not “walking away from” the officers, as many are insisting; he was walking briskly abreast of them and turning toward them(4:45), his left hand inside his pocket and swinging the knife in his right hand.

Most police officers are trained on the “21-foot rule”(also known as the Tueller Drill), the distance at which an officer’s “reactionary gap” (the time it takes the officer to recognize the threat, reach, draw, aim, and fire on the subject) puts his own life in jeopardy from a subject with an edged weapon.

Here’s a very good demonstration of the 21-foot rule:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_KJ1R2PCMM

It has been proven over and over again (unfortunately not only in training drills but in many cases where officers have been murdered/gravely wounded) that an agile subject with an edged weapon can suddenly, as rapidly as 1.5 seconds, close a distance of up to 21 feet to fatally stab/slash a victim, even kill or seriously wound a trained police officer armed with a gun.

That’s LESS time than it takes an officer to recognize the threat, reach, draw, aim, and fire on the subject — the “reactionary gap.” 1.23 seconds is the fastest closing time of the 21-foot distance measured.

I played the video over and over at various speeds, and the taser wires are visible well before McDonald shows any kind of reaction(indicating that the taser may not have functioned immediately or properly), and he actually turns toward the officers(4:45) as he walks briskly abreast of them with the wires attached, swinging the knife in one hand, with his other hand in his pocket.

Then, it looks like the gunfire is what brings him down, because you can see dust/debris kicked up as the rounds hit the concrete around/under McDonald’s body when he falls.

If Van Dyke believed the taser did not function, it can be argued that he legitimately perceived McDonald (who had just slashed a police car’s tire with the knife) to be an imminent deadly threat within the 21-foot reactionary gap.

That perception might not mean to a jury (Graham v. Connor) that Van Dyke necessarily HAD to shoot McDonald, but it would definitely mean he’s not guilty of murder.

The 21-foot rule has come under scrutiny and criticism in recent years/months, and I predict it will (as “stand your ground,” as misapplied as it was, in the Zimmerman case) be the centerpiece of this case.

Not guilty.

Oh, and by the way, as for the number of shots Van Dyke fired, the answer is that once the decision to use deadly force is made, the number of shots is really moot — although we all know that the public, media, and jurors can imagine that there can somehow be some kind of “excessive” force beyond deadly force.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 44.

#2. To: no gnu taxes (#0)

It's a crying shame that Illinois no longer has capital punishment
because Van Dyke deserves to have his ass fried by Ol' Sparky.

Willie Green  posted on  2015-11-25   18:18:26 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Willie Green (#2)

It's a crying shame that Illinois no longer has capital punishment because Van Dyke deserves to have his ass fried by Ol' Sparky.

Why? I watched the video and I do believe he acted faster than I but not outside the bounds of keeping the community safe. I think he should be fired because he should have waited for containment and TAZER TAZER TAZER till the criminal pee'ed his pants or died from a heart attack.

I give criminals zero sympathy if they act aggressively. If you surrender then you should be careful arrested.

Justified  posted on  2015-11-25   18:26:57 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Justified (#3)

I think he should be fired because he should have waited for containment and TAZER TAZER TAZER till the criminal pee'ed his pants or died from a heart attack.

I'll give him a break on that one,because someone high on PCP may or not not notice he has been tazed.

Still,16 shots,many fired when he was already down?

sneakypete  posted on  2015-11-25   20:39:08 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: sneakypete (#8)

" someone high on PCP may or not not notice he has been tazed. "

True, or may not notice even if they had been shot.

Stoner  posted on  2015-11-26   2:37:05 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: Stoner (#13)

" someone high on PCP may or not not notice he has been tazed. "

True, or may not notice even if they had been shot.

From what I have seen on the video,this guy was pretty much dead before he hit the ground,so he wasn't noticing much of anything while being shot with the last 10 to 15 rounds.

The cop punked out and panicked. The result was a unjustified shooting that should lead to him facing criminal charges in a court room.

sneakypete  posted on  2015-11-26   5:07:19 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: sneakypete (#14)

"unjustified shooting"

That may be the case. I am not taking any position on that. I was just commenting on your statement of " someone high on PCP may or not not notice he has been tazed. " That statement is equally true about gun shots.

I witnessed a situation where a guy was high on PCP, and was shot 8 times with .38's and .357 mags. No head shots, or heart shots. The guy did not even flinch. He was disarmed when a Trooper came up from behind and jerked his hand gun out of his hand. When the ambulance got there 5 minutes later, he was hand cuffed, standing and bleeding like a sieve. He didn't even know he had been shot.

I think the only thing that would have brought him down with those weapons would have been a head shot. Or, they could have used a shotgun. It was quite amazing how he did not react to wounds.

After that I bought my first 1911.

Stoner  posted on  2015-11-26   12:23:03 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Stoner (#18)

I think the only thing that would have brought him down with those weapons would have been a head shot. Or, they could have used a shotgun. It was quite amazing how he did not react to wounds.

You don't EVER want to get involved in a fist fight with someone on PCP,not even a teenage girl. People that can't feel pain and are high and aggressive at the same time WILL F u up!

After that I bought my first 1911.

Good move. You still want to go with head shots if he is close,though.

sneakypete  posted on  2015-11-26   17:48:17 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: sneakypete (#21)

You still want to go with head shots if he is close,though.

I thought you were always supposed to go with center-mass shots. And only go for the head shot if you believe your opponent is wearing body armor.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-11-27   14:11:03 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: TooConservative (#23)

You still want to go with head shots if he is close,though.

I thought you were always supposed to go with center-mass shots. And only go for the head shot if you believe your opponent is wearing body armor.

Tactics are entirely dependent on experience and capabilities. Going for center mass is probably a good idea for people who have never been in a gun fight and who haven't shot tens of thousands of rounds in their lifetime.

I may be wrong,but I feel like I have the experience and the ability to put a bullet in your eye if I want from 20-25 feet if you are standing still and pointing a gun at me,and somewhere in your head if you are moving.

I probably ain't the most "sporting" guy you have ever met. I don't believe in warning shots and I don't believe in shooting to wound. If I shoot at you and you don't die,it was entirely accidental and I will try to do better the next time.

The FACTS are that if you are justified to shoot at all,you are justified to shoot to kill. If you're not,don't shoot,period.

sneakypete  posted on  2015-11-27   16:14:12 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: sneakypete (#24)

I may be wrong,but I feel like I have the experience and the ability to put a bullet in your eye if I want from 20-25 feet if you are standing still and pointing a gun at me,and somewhere in your head if you are moving.

Well, I can't help but think of those "amazing cop videos" where policeman are rapid firing at a person five feet away who has pulled a gun on them and missing every shot.

no gnu taxes  posted on  2015-11-27   16:24:06 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: no gnu taxes (#25)

Well, I can't help but think of those "amazing cop videos" where policeman are rapid firing at a person five feet away who has pulled a gun on them and missing every shot.

I read a few books by a police armorer. He related that on many forces, cops may shoot 50 rounds or less in an entire year.

Practice makes perfect.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-11-27   16:34:45 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: TooConservative (#28)

"He related that on many forces, cops may shoot 50 rounds or less in an entire year."

Hell, that's an hour at the range.

misterwhite  posted on  2015-11-27   17:01:03 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: misterwhite (#33)

"He related that on many forces, cops may shoot 50 rounds or less in an entire year."

Hell, that's an hour at the range.

Or maybe 3 minutes,depending on magazine capacity and how long it takes you to swap out.

Classical slow bullseye shooting is useful,but if you are practicing for shoot out,you need to practice like you are in a gun fight. Rapid shots looking at the target and not the sights. Screw a bunch of bullseyes. If you can empty a 7 shot 1911 45 ACP magazine before the first empty hits the ground and hit a head-sized target at 25-30 feet with solid hits at least 3 times,you are good to go.

Providing of course you also hit the target with the other 4 rounds. They don't have to be centered,but they do need to hit the target.

If you can't do this,you need to practice.

Back when I was doing a lot of 45 shooting,I would have 500 rounds of loaded ammo on hand all the time,and another 500 rounds of empty brass that had already been deprimed and tumbled in a box by the chair. I'd seat the primers by hand while watching tv. I preferred seating the primers with a hand press because IMHO the bench presses have so much leverage it is hard to "feel" when the primer is fully seated.

I used to do a lot of shooting at old golf balls scattered around the yard. I'd spin around and start popping off rounds as quickly as I could at the various golf balls as spotted them. If you have a sensitive ego this is not the type of practice shooting you will enjoy because you are snap shooting at tiny little round targets scatted at various ranges,and basically point-shooting . You will miss a LOT,but it sure does feel good to pop two or three in a row and watch them jump. If you can do this while just screwing around,you will most likely not have any problems doing better in a life or death shooting situation. There is not much that will work better to focus your mind and vision than having someone pointing a gun at you.

sneakypete  posted on  2015-11-27   19:48:43 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: sneakypete (#37)

" I used to do a lot of shooting at old golf balls scattered around the yard. "

Sounds interesting Pete. I am not a golfer, but if I can scrounge up some old golf balls, or something similar, I would like to try that. I usually use silhouette targets, but would like to try the golf balls.

Stoner  posted on  2015-11-27   20:50:18 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: Stoner (#41) (Edited)

Sounds interesting Pete.

It can be a lot of fun,but snap-shooting can also be frustrating as hell. Especially if you have always been a traditional bullseye shooter that carefully controls your breathing,gets a good sight picture,gently squeezes the trigger,etc,etc,etc.

You nave no time for any of that. It's strictly point and shoot instinct shooting. With patience and practice you can learn to do it,though.

When you get to the point you can hit the balls pretty regular while just spinning around and shooting,start adding lateral movements and advancing or retreating to the game so you shoot while on the move. If you have never really done much of it,I think you will be surprised by how accurately you can shoot by just "point shooting.

I have to admit that I got bored with target shooting,and decided to see what I could come up with that would add a little fun while working on "real life" shooting skills. It may not be a perfect system/"game",but it ain't bad,either.

BTW,you can go to a golf course and talk to the employees there and buy bad balls that were lost in the grass and hit with the lawnmower blades cheap. They are no good for anything else. I was getting them free because I was working at a golf course at the time I came up with the game.

sneakypete  posted on  2015-11-27   21:57:11 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: sneakypete (#42)

" go to a golf course and talk to the employees there and buy bad balls "

Yeah, I'll try that. Thanks

Stoner  posted on  2015-11-28   8:47:57 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


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