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Title: ObamaCareÂ’s imploding even without repeal
Source: [None]
URL Source: http://nypost.com/2015/11/22/obamac ... imploding-even-without-repeal/
Published: Nov 23, 2015
Author: By Post Editorial Board
Post Date: 2015-11-23 09:37:47 by no gnu taxes
Keywords: None
Views: 4149
Comments: 61

It’s looking like ObamaCare won’t survive even if Congress can’t manage to repeal it.

The nation’s largest health insurer, UnitedHealth Group, said last week that it’s losing too much — $425 million — from policies sold on the health exchanges, and may have to pull out by 2017.

The company admits it’s “a potentially huge blow” to the new system: “If a major publicly traded insurer bows out, others may follow and destabilize the entire individual market.”

Game over for ObamaCare?

UnitedHealth CEO Stephen Hemsley seems to imply just that: “We can’t really subsidize a marketplace that doesn’t appear at the moment to be sustaining itself.”

Mind you, UnitedHealth was a huge backer of the 2009 law. One of its top execs, Andrew Slavitt, then joined the administration to run the health exchanges.

What’s going on here? Basically, the long-feared “death spiral”: Not enough young, healthy folks are signing up for these plans, so insurers are losing money despite the hefty federal subsidies for the coverage. They’re raising premiums to even things out — but that drives even more folks away, so that only older, less-healthy customers remain, driving new losses . . .

Looking at the collapse of the ObamaCare “cooperatives” a few weeks back, Betsy McCaughey warned in these pages that the death spiral was under way.

Now here’s America’s biggest insurance provider saying pretty much the same thing. Hemsley cited weak enrollment and high medical costs for those who did sign up.

And the Obama administration itself last month predicted 2016 enrollment would be less than half of what the Congressional Budget Office predicted in March.

Republicans have been tossing around plans to replace ObamaCare from the start. Now it’s time for Democrats to join in — unless they want to get caught looking when the whole thing goes belly-up.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 50.

#2. To: no gnu taxes (#0)

That's part of the plan. It was designed for failure ... an intermediate step at best . The emperor and the Dems have always wanted a universal single payer European type system. They will make the argument that leaving national health care in the hands of the greedy Big Insurance,Big Pharma etc was the big flaw in Obamacare .

tomder55  posted on  2015-11-23   9:43:16 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: tomder55 (#2)

The emperor and the Dems have always wanted a universal single payer European type system. They will make the argument that leaving national health care in the hands of the greedy Big Insurance,Big Pharma etc was the big flaw in Obamacare .

And they will be right, too.

We need universal Medicare, birth to death, paid for by taxes. That's what we need, and that's what we're going to get, eventually.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-11-23   10:33:20 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Vicomte13 (#4)

"We need universal Medicare, birth to death, paid for by taxes."

We need Medicaid for the poor. Nothing else.

misterwhite  posted on  2015-11-23   10:59:32 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: misterwhite (#8)

We need Medicare for everybody, nothing more, nothing less.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-11-23   11:05:25 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: Vicomte13 (#9)

"We need Medicare for everybody, nothing more, nothing less."

Only 40% of Medicare is funded by the government. The rest is funded by payroll deductions and premiums.

You convinced me. Medicare for everyone who can afford it.

misterwhite  posted on  2015-11-23   11:19:06 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: misterwhite (#12)

Only 40% of Medicare is funded by the government. The rest is funded by payroll deductions and premiums.

You convinced me. Medicare for everyone who can afford it.

Payroll deduction is government. It's a forced tax. If people did not have to pay that tax, they would opt out and the system would collapse.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-11-23   11:29:08 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: Vicomte13 (#15)

"Payroll deduction is government."

No. It's your payroll. The government takes money from you (and your employer) to pay for Medicare.

"If people did not have to pay that tax, they would opt out and the system would collapse."

Correct. They would use that money to buy private insurance, a system I prefer.

misterwhite  posted on  2015-11-23   11:33:49 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: misterwhite (#17)

No. It's your payroll. The government takes money from you (and your employer) to pay for Medicare.

Fiction.

"Involuntary mandatory payroll deductions" is deceptive political language that is used to allow folks like you to pretend to an alternate reality.

That which money, involuntarily subtracted (on pain of prosecution for non- compliance) and paid over to government, is a TAX.

You can do all of the semantic gymnastics you'd like, but the truth is that your health insurance (I assume that you are over 65) is government-funded social insurance paid for by taxes.

As it should be. But everybody should be covered, not just people over 65.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-11-23   11:40:09 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Vicomte13 (#18)

funded social insurance paid for by taxes.

As it should be.

What chapter and verse is that found in?

Oh it isn't based on the Bible it is based on your presonal beliefs.

A K A Stone  posted on  2015-11-23   11:43:37 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: A K A Stone (#21)

What chapter and verse is that found in?

Oh it isn't based on the Bible it is based on your presonal beliefs.

HOW to specifically fund social insurance, in the Christian church, is not spelled out.

How God did it in the one state he directly ruled is, extensively, with tithe and distribution.

Of course, they didn't have modern medicine then. Rather, they had God's promise that if the Hebrews in the land of Canaan ate the way God said to, he would not inflict on them the diseases that he inflicted upon Egypt.

(Did you get that part, about GOD (not Satan), inflicting the diseases on Egypt. God sure killed a lot of Egyptians, didn't he? Killed the Hebrews in the desert too.)

You know what, Stone, I'm going to take up your challenge. I'm going to sit down and write out, in full, the answer to every challenge you've made, and nail it all down with Scripture, line by line, directly cited.

You paraphrase, inaccurately, but you demand that I give point cites. Very well. Challenge accepted.

It will probably take me a year to do it all, and the result will be a very long book. I will post that book here, on your site. It will be thorough and exhaustive. And the beauty of then will be that I will only need to reference the page of the "Book for Stone", and on that page will be cite after cite after cite after cite, all point cited, that will answer every challenge you have made.

Until I've finished that, I won't post anywhere on the boards anymore. See you in a year.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-11-23   12:03:20 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: Vicomte13 (#22)

It will probably take me a year to do it all, and the result will be a very long book. I will post that book here, on your site. It will be thorough and exhaustive. And the beauty of then will be that I will only need to reference the page of the "Book for Stone", and on that page will be cite after cite after cite after cite, all point cited, that will answer every challenge you have made.

Maybe you don't need a Book of Stone. Or anyone else.

You should realize there's a good chance you could spend a year writing it and no one would read it (including Stone). For a guy who won't even archive his writings on a Wordpress blog, writing a book to settle an argument on a thread on an obscure forum like LF seems a bit over the top.

You aren't even arguing the facts on this thread about the major insurer acting like it is pulling out of ObamaCare next year. You're on a tangent about the merits of single-payer, something never mentioned in the article at all.

Winning an argument over a few off-topic posts on a dusty forum is not worth spending a year to write a book about.

OTOH, if you do waste a year to write a book about single-payer, I suppose I could spend the year writing a book about why people get so het up over a few posts on an obscure forum, a study of the pathologies of news aggregator trolling.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-11-23   20:09:50 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: TooConservative (#43)

Well, Too, it's like this. The things that Stone and I were really arguing about are matters of God's Will, Scripture, life after death, Heaven and Hell. The subject matter - social insurance - is just a ring for shadowboxing. The REAL issue is religion, and it's the most important subject in the universe.

And the truth it, nothing about it is simple, because God is not simple. God is unutterably complex and superior. So what we have from him is itself complex, variegated. There is plenty of room in it for interpretation and disagreement.

What I am writing (because I have decided to go ahead and write it) is a long, systematic discussion of what God actually SAID, from the beginning through to the last thing written in Scripture, and what he has done since, that unifies what he said and did, to the extent that it can be unified.

This is of immense importance to me, because such a work answers not just the arguments that Stone makes, but ANY argument that is worth arguing. When one group of Christians is shouting that social supports through government are part of God's plan and mandate, and another group are shrieking that it's satanic and satanic to say so, there is a disconnect so profound that there isn't any hope for the world if it stays that way. Christ prayed for unity for a reason: division has weakened the whole Church, side to side, top to bottom.

It is a question - an open one - as to whether or not Scripture applied with reason can really unite Christians to a common purpose. I have the faith that it can, but I recognize that some aspects of God's message are offensive to everybody, with different pieces offending different people. The only way to overcome that revulsion, I believe, is to actually hammer out the points of contention, showing what God really said and did and meant. Once that is clear, it becomes difficult to continue to resist it and remain Christian.

But Scripture was revealed in a certain order, and God's revelation comes in layers. If you skip steps in its exposition and jump around to the point cites that you think makes your point, you lose the thread of the whole. The only way to keep the thread of the whole is to start at the beginning and move forward, carefully, expansively, observing the features along the way, and pointing out the ones that will become important later.

Example. the creation story itself was only important for giving a brief explanation of the origin of sin until the 1800s. Then, with theories of continental drift, dinosaur bones and evolution, the creation story became important because it was suddenly at odds with the rising science. Now, probably the greatest obstacle to faith in the world is science versus Genesis. 200 years ago, Genesis was an obscure backwater.

Today, to skip past Genesis to get to other stuff means to render the whole exercise useless to anybody who thinks of himself as "scientific". You HAVE TO address the issue of origins and science. You can't just leave it there, or it destroys the very foundation of Christianity. There is no point in reading the Bible or paying any attention to Jesus if it's not TRUE, and Genesis v. science makes it very much appear not true from the very beginning.

Waving hands around and saying "faith!" fail utterly. People born into a religion will have the "faith" through culture. Nobody else will believe a word of it. No, you actually have to ENGAGE the thoughts, and you cannot do it with a sneer on your lip. You have to LISTEN to the science and LOOK AT their evidence, and then present what Genesis REALLY SAYS. The traditional read of Genesis actually fails, and the reason that it fails is because the traditional read is a myth. What Genesis ACTUALLY SAYS is different from what the traditions say it says, and that difference is very important. Lots of people have read the words, but they haven't challenged them.

Before 1840, there was no reason to challenge them, but now we live in a world where the traditional read HAS been challenged, and largely destroyed, because of scientific facts, or things that appear to be facts. Screaming that it's a question of blind faith means the death of Christianity - and make no mistake, the massive drop off in Church attendance and the withering of the religion is mostly BECAUSE OF the inability of erroneous traditions and fables to actually ANSWER the science. Creation Museum" explanations don't cut it either. But what is actually written in Genesis, and the way it is written, are sobering IF IT'S ACTUALLY READ with the same care that a microscope slide is examined.

If God exists at all, and if he inspired this text, then he knew that the day would come when human science would seem to render Genesis, and therefore all of the rest of the Bible, an old myth. So, He either really exists and saw to it that deep truths are contained in Genesis that only modern scientific minds can see - the ANTIDOTE to "scientific atheism", or the atheists are right and it's just a bronze age myth.

As it happens, what's embedded in Genesis is utterly profound. But that profundity is not found in the English of 1611, or 1970. It is found in the Hebrew characters that comprise Genesis, and the subtle wording of the text in Hebrew.

God had to describe quantum physics using the language of Early Bronze Age bedouins. That's tough to do, unless you're God.

But it takes care and patience to see it. Once one does see it, though, one bends the knee and says "My Lord and my God", for there is no other way to explain the depth and texture of what is there. Blundering through using antiquated English doesn't cut it, though.

Genesis imposes a discipline on us, and the methodology that I offer proves itself in the first, hardest case: science versus religion. Relying on the inspired text as it is written, and reason, one realizes that science and religion cannot be perfectly squared, but also that science as currently believed does not square with all of the facts on offer. And in Genesis we get a glimpse of what WILL BE discovered, because God revealed it.

Completing this tour-de-force with Genesis gives us a great deal more confidence that our technique is a good one for really coming face to face with the God who inspired the Scriptures. And in the process it silences the Christian denominational bickering, because none of the denominations have the answers that God himself has, and revealed in his inspired word.

To get there, though, requires the discipline to start at the beginning and move forward, and to not permit partisans, however well meaning, to leap ahead in the story line and pick and choose a passage here and a passage there. It was revealed in a certain order, and that's how it ha to be unwrapped, in the same order, if one wants to understand.

This is worth doing irrespective of an argument with Stone, and it is a far more productive use of my time than arguing with cannibals about Medicare.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-11-23   21:15:06 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: Vicomte13 (#44)

What is the stuff embedded in it that makes it profound? And what is the stuff that will be seen later? Why DOES it conflict?

ebonytwix  posted on  2015-11-23   23:42:00 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: ebonytwix (#49)

What is the stuff embedded in it that makes it profound? And what is the stuff that will be seen later? Why DOES it conflict?

It is not a simple "six twenty four hour days" schema.

The first word is a pictographic sentence that shows the begetting of the Son by the Father before time begins, and the begetting points to the cross - in the very first word.

The name of God, El, means "the lord is my shepherd". When the plural God is first introduced, , it is followed immediately by "from El to the Cross".

It is not simply water - H20 - that is there at the beginning, it is the flow of chaos.

Light is not simply light, it is the word "order" also.

The words themselves are pictographic sentences. The concept of entropy and energy organizing chaos is there.

And so much more.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-11-24   0:39:52 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 50.

#51. To: Vicomte13 (#50)

Go on! Go on! Do go on! It sounds awesome!

ebonytwix  posted on  2015-11-24 00:46:33 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 50.

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