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Religion
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Title: The KJV in Order
Source: KJV
URL Source: [None]
Published: Oct 20, 2015
Author: Vicomte13
Post Date: 2015-10-20 23:50:09 by Vicomte13
Keywords: None
Views: 7783
Comments: 60

A K A Stone, I told you I would stop posting until I could fully answer you, and I meant it.

I'm not going to recriminate. You said plenty that made my blood boil, but I've decided to take it as sincere concern for what I've said, as opposed to simply trying to bait me.

You've said many times that I don't provide Scripture. I have, but to the extent that I have not provided enough. this e-mail will remedy that.

I've agreed to use the KJV, and just that. No Hebrew, no Greek, no outside interpretive Scripture translations. The KJV has no footnotes, sp there will be no wrangling between us over the authority of footnotes that are not there. It's just the text, and you've said you accept this text as authoritative.

I know that the original KJV contained the Apocrypha also, but I'm not going to use the Apocrypha (even though it's part of the full KJV), because that will simply be another opportunity for a pointless fight. God's law is all in the Protestant canon, so I'll leave that issue be also.

So here we are with the KJV text. I'm going to go through it starting with Genesis 1, and note each place where there is something of particular interest that bears, directly or indirectly, on our discussion of economics and law.

I have to do this because of your very aggressive and hostile tone. You've said that I don't quote Scripture, but I did, at length, so I can see that every single point I make has to be specifically backed by a citation right in the text. Now, I've noticed that you don't write that way at all, and neither does anybody else. But because the things that I say do not fit your tradition, you hold me to a much higher standard than you hold yourself or your allies. You can simply positively assert your tradition as though it is a fact - without citing a word of Scripture - as though the fact that it's your tradition ESTABLISHES it as scripture. But if I do not point cite each and every point, I'm a false prophet, twister of scripture, doing Satan's work, and every other damned thing.

Fine then, I shall meet you all the way, and provide a point cite to every single point I make.

But you won't let it go at that either. Once you have Scripture that demonstrates the point, you'll reject my argument anyway, claiming that I am "twisting Scripture" or "taking it out of context".

The only way I can avoid THAT charge is to present ALL of Scripture - every single thing that is important to the topic, in order from the beginning to the end of Scripture, so that nothing is left out. This is the only way to defeat the charge of "taking it out of context" - to provide the FULL context.

I did something close to that before, and you never even acknowledged it. I think that what I am doing is a fool's errand. YOU are not going to accept what the Scripture says, because the full weight of Scripture, fully deployed, is contrary to your tradition.

So what you will do is what you have already done: you will ignore what I've written, and then say that I'm not reading something right, and that I've presented things out of context.

I know that I cannot win from the beginning of this exercise. I know that you will not be persuaded by Scripture itself. I'm going to go through the full dress battle anyway, line by line, because it deserves to be said, and if you will not be persuaded, others will.

From my perspective, once God's laws and examples have been laid end-to-end, the principles are very clear and there isn't much left to debate, because God is clear.

So, that's what I am going to do, the source I'm going to use, how I'm going to use it, why I am doing it just this way - all the while acknowledging that in the end I do not believe I can win in your court, because I think you have prejudged the case. But maybe seeing God's word laid out for you end to end will break open the prison door of your heart.

"And so we sail, in the confident expectation of a miracle." - the Duke of Medina Sidonia

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning..."

Note that the word is "in", and not "AT". "At the beginning..." would mean a single point of time. "At 10 o'clock", or "At the opening bell", but "In the beginning..." refers to an indeterminate span of time.

If you said "At the start of the first inning" of a baseball game, we would think of the first pitch, but if you said "In the first inning", we would recognize that the subject event occurred during a span of at bats by both sides.

This is important, because some traditions assert that the Bible says that God created everything from nothing in an instant, that it's right there in the first sentence. Actually, that is NOT there in the first sentence. The text does not speak of a point of time - AT the beginning - AT the start - but of a span of time - IN the beginning - IN the first inning. Also, the text does not say that God created the whole universe from nothing. That's a traditional addition to the text. The text itself says that God created "the Heaven" and "the Earth".

We discover in Genesis 1:8 that "the Heaven" is specifically the firmament that God made "in the midst of the waters", in other words the sky. And in 1:10, that :the Earth" specifically means "the dry land", and NOT "the planet".

Does it matter? Yes it does. It matters because in the Creationist/Evolutionist debates, many creationists go too far and assert that the Scriptures say things that they do not say. What they say, using the definitions in the text, is that during the beginning God made the sky and the dry land. Then Genesis goes on after that to describe the filling up of the dry land with things, and the waters with sea creatures.

And so we come to the first commandment, given to the lifeless darkness: "Let there be light!" Genesis 1:3. In 1:5 Genesis will define "Light" as "Day", and darkness as "Night".

And that is where we will stop for tonight. Genesis 1:1 does not support the excessively detailed claims that some make. It is a more general summary.

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#3. To: Vicomte13 (#0)

We discover in Genesis 1:8 that "the Heaven" is specifically the firmament that God made "in the midst of the waters", in other words the sky.

Seems to say water in the sky.

A K A Stone  posted on  2015-10-21   0:19:11 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: A K A Stone (#3)

We discover in Genesis 1:8 that "the Heaven" is specifically the firmament that God made "in the midst of the waters", in other words the sky.

Seems to say water in the sky.

Well, yes - that's why the sky is blue.

Genesis 1:1 says God created the Heaven and the Earth.

Genesis 1:2 speaks twice of water. It says that the Earth was "without form and void" - formless and empty. Remember that Genesis 1:10 tells us that God calls the dry land "Earth", but that he doesn't cause the dry land to appear until the third day. In the beginning, before the third day, there was darkness - light had not been created yet. There was no Heaven (the firmament of the sky). There was only water.

Genesis 1:2 twice says that everything was water at first. It says "darkness was upon the face of the deep", "the deep" meaning the deep waters, the surging abyssal sea. And then it says "the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

So, things start with Water.

Then on the first day God commands light into being: "Let there be light!"

On the second day, he creates the sky - the Heaven - by dividing the waters by a "firmament". The waters below are separated from the waters above by the firmament.

The blue sky above is the waters above. Below the firmament is the space of the air, with the water below that (on the second day, the waters below the firmament had not been gathered together into seas, leaving dry land ("Earth") yet).

So the firmament - "the Heaven" as the Gen 1:8 refers to it, divides water above from water below.

The sky is blue - the water above. When the Flood comes in Genesis 7:11, the "fountains of the great deep" - the waters below - were broken up - and "the windows of heaven were opened" - and the water poured through the firmament from above, and surged up through the Earth from below.

Water above, water below - the land between the waters, with the firmament - the sky - "the heaven" - separating the two waters and making the space of air in which man and animals and plants inhabit the dry land.

That's what KJV Genesis says.

In the Hebrew, there is much greater detail and precision - but you resist that knowledge and completely distrust me in conveying it.

So we have what the KJV says, and nothing more.

A few things that the KJV does NOT say:

"Earth" is the planet. No. The KJV says that "Earth" is the dry land.

God made everything out of nothing. No. The KJV never says that.

God made everything in seven 24-hour days. No. The KJV describes God's making of the Land and the firmament of the Heaven, and filling up the land, the seas and the sky with things. It says that God did it in seven "Days", but a day is defined as "light", while the darkness is "night". The Sun and Moon and stars were not placed in the firmament until the fourth day of Genesis (see Gen 1:14), and they are there for signs and seasons. So, one can assert that a solar day and a Biblical "Day", a period of light, are the same things from the Fourth Day onward. For then the Sun is the source of the light that is the Day. But for the First, Second and Third Day, there is nothing to measure the time, and the Bible does not say that those days are 24 hours. Nor did it give the slightest indication that they should be considered 24 hour days.

It is fiction writing, adding to the Bible, and NOT THERE that the first three days were 24-hour days. There is no indication whatever in the KJV (or in the Hebrew) how long those first three periods of Light, those first three days were.

The Biblical account of creation is indeed creation, in seven days, not evolution. But it most certainly is not the description of God creating the universe from nothing in 7 24-hour solar days. The Bible does not say that.

The KJV says what it says, and what it says answers the big question: God made it, but it does not contain the details of length of time, especially for the first three days, and it does not concern itself with life on other planets or any such thing. Nor does it say that there is not life on other planets. It is, in fact, completely silent regarding life anywhere else, and it is completely silent as to the length of the first three days.

And whoever asserts that it isn't needs to provide the specific cite from the KJV that says differently. None exists - they make up those details. They are not biblical.

We start at Genesis 1, and we immediately collide with the Creationist vs. Evolutionist argument. I'm not going to dwell on it. I've cited the Scripture. It says God created the world. It does not say that he created the universe, or the world, "from nothing", and it doesn't say that he did it in seven 24 hour days. It describes the making and filling of the land and sky, and describes seven days - which are periods of light and darkness.

The Hebrew gives us more. "Day" is a word that also means "Order". But you're not going to follow me into Hebrew. With the KJV, we've already said what can be said about early creation. Those who deny creation OR who add details not revealed, are all in error. Now we can move on.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-10-21   10:58:08 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: Vicomte13, A K A Stone (#4) (Edited)

Well, yes - that's why the sky is blue.

It's blue because of Rayleigh scattering of light through the atmosphere. This scattering effect is also responsible for the yellow tint of the sun itself (which is actually white). Also, the reddish color of sunrises/sunsets.

The reddening of sunlight is intensified when the sun is near the horizon, because the density of air and particles near the earth's surface through which sunlight must pass is significantly greater than when the sun is high in the sky. The Rayleigh scattering effect is thus increased, removing virtually all blue light from the direct path to the observer. The remaining unscattered light is mostly of a longer wavelength, and therefore appears to be orange.

The color of the sky has very little connection to water vapor. The sky is blue because of its gaseous components, nitrogen (78%), oxygen (21%) and argon (1%). Argon was also discovered by Lord Rayleigh. Brilliant fellow in the late nineteenth century, contributed to many scientific fields.

BTW, the color of water is bluer the deeper it is. Water vapor is far too scattered to affect the color of the sky.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-10-22   8:59:23 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: TooConservative (#23)

The color of the sky has very little connection to water vapor.

And water vapor is only a subset of "water" in the English of 1611.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-10-22   9:42:57 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: Vicomte13 (#25)

And water vapor is only a subset of "water" in the English of 1611.

So the King James Bible which you kind of use as a pejorative. The King James is written by men and not really the word of God?

Because that is exactly what your words imply.

A K A Stone  posted on  2015-10-22   20:21:16 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: A K A Stone, Vicomte13 (#28)

So the King James Bible which you kind of use as a pejorative. The King James is written by men and not really the word of God?

Because that is exactly what your words imply.

Oh, AKA, say it ain't so!!!!

SOSO  posted on  2015-10-22   21:37:17 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: SOSO (#29)

Oh, AKA, say it ain't so!!!!

I can't say it aint so.

That is what my take on what his words say.

Is it an unreasonable intrepretation in your view?

A K A Stone  posted on  2015-10-22   21:43:53 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: A K A Stone, Vicomte13 (#30)

Is it an unreasonable intrepretation in your view?

I have long advocated on LP and now on here that (1) the translation of any lanugage into another is less than 100% accurate just by the very nature of the beast (some words, phrases, etc. simply do not translate well or even at all), and, (2) idoms, the meanings of words, etc. even in the same language, change over time, sometimes radically (e.g. - take the word gay in the English language, it was not too long ago that the word was understood by all to mean happy, joyful).

Just look how the English language has changed in just a few hundred years from Old English (how many native English speaking people today can even read Old English much less understand it?). Imagine how the meaning of words, idioms, etc. in a language can change over 2,000 years. Vicomte13 is very familiar with my position on this. He still maintains that the English translations (all of them) represent for practical purposes a perfect (or nearly so) representation of God's words (and the meaning of same) as first recorded by men thousands of years ago, many of which being in a dead language and the rest in the dialect and/or vocabulary of still existing languages but as they existed 2,000 years or more ago.

SOSO  posted on  2015-10-22   22:00:53 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: SOSO (#31)

He still maintains that the English translations (all of them) represent for practical purposes a perfect (or nearly so) representation of God's words (

For practical purposes, yes.

If God really inspired Scripture at all - if it's really a holy bible and not just a bunch of old papers - then God has made sure to convey what he wanted to convey through it.

I have done the work, and I know that only about 8% of the whole text is actually the direct words of God. I've counted. And I know that God repeats just about everything over and over, and refers back to it, usually at least three times, which means that the actual original material from God is only about 2.75% of the Bible, which amounts to about 50 pages of text, total, in a 2000 page book. I know that the rest of the Bible is structured around those words, and records the effect they had, how people followed them or didn't,. and how God reminded them of them. So I know that the actual literal words of God in the Bible are not numerous and are straightforward.

And because all law comes from God, I just concentrate on those words as the ones that contain all of the authority the book ever had (or will have), which is why it is theologically irrelevant to me whether or not the "Apocrypha" or the books of the Ethiopian and other extended canons are left in or out: they contain very few words of God, and very, very little that adds anything (in that respect) to what is already in the canon everybody accepts.

And I recognize, from having read the text so often, that the things God says are generally short and rather curt. Paul's letters, and John's, and really get flowery and long, and confusing, but God is quite gruff and direct. Jesus speaks at greater length, but he is usually clear - and challenging.

Genesis 1 et seq are really important for the Creationist argument, but they're pretty trivial when it comes to moral commandments of God. That's why ultimately I don't engage in the theological debate concerning them - they tell a story of creation, but the only parts that really affect our BEHAVIOR are the commands about reproduction and food and dominion. The rest is interesting detail, a story, but a story that doesn't matter for the things on which I focus.

I don't get lost in the weeds of storytelling. I am focused sharply on "What does the Master command?" Our God is a God who says repeatedly in both testaments that he judges men by their deeds, so I think that what's important is reading the Scripture to learn what God wants us to DO or NOT do - as our afterlife with him depends on THAT. What we think happened at the creation of the world is not one of the things on the list that make a man acceptable or unacceptable to God, so I don't sweat it.

Other people do, and I humor them a bit, but I don't think it matters for salvation. God's few direct words in the morass of text do matter, and they're repeated at least three times, almost always, and it is because of the curtness and consistency of meaning in the repetition that I am confident that we are getting what we need out of the text FOR PRACTICAL PURPOSES.

When it comes to God, the purpose I am interested in IS the practical one: what are the standards for getting into Paradise and Heaven and having a good afterlife with God. THAT is what matters. Winning some sort of foolish Internet debate with contentious people doesn't really matter to me. I do it because what I have to say, when we get to the morals part, really DOES matter to all of us. When there's a pit, you warn people about the pit.

That's the what and the why of it.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-10-22   22:27:53 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: Vicomte13 (#33)

I have done the work, and I know that only about 8% of the whole text is actually the direct words of God. I've counted. And I know that God repeats just about everything over and over, and refers back to it, usually at least three times, which means that the actual original material from God is only about 2.75% of the Bible, which amounts to about 50 pages of text, total, in a 2000 page book. I know that the rest of the Bible is structured around those words, and records the effect they had, how people followed them or didn't,. and how God reminded them of them. So I know that the actual literal words of God in the Bible are not numerous and are straightforward.

But when it comes right down to it you expect me to take your word for this. And this is no differnt from what others who preach Scripture tells me I must do, i.e. - believe them. Only a very, very, very small group of people have the luxury of becoming knowledgable enough to read AND understand scripture in its original languages.

So in reality the what and the why of it for me, and most people, is what we understand from our personal relationship with God through the faith that He has bestow upon us. And He does grant us free will (many, but not all would argue). Surely scriptures provides a guide to understand His will but as a written lanuage it is insufficient on its own to do this. You may be content to extract from the writtings those things that are meaningful to you - and that's fine. But your interpretation of scriptures is no more or less valid than others who have put the time into learning the original language of the scirptures.

It almost seems that by your philosophy/reasoning really all one needs is the Ten Comandments. By that measure Christ is totally unnessesary for salvation.

SOSO  posted on  2015-10-22   22:50:05 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: SOSO (#34)

t almost seems that by your philosophy/reasoning really all one needs is the Ten Comandments. By that measure Christ is totally unnessesary for salvation.

The Ten Commandments are not what one needs. It doesn't matter for your going into Paradise after death whether you keep the Sabbath Day or not, but things that are not in the Ten Commandments, such as love your neighbor, and the Golden Rule, DO matter greatly.

The Ten Commandments don't refer to heaven and hell. They are part of the Mosaic covenant. Do these things, and the rest, and you Hebrews here at Sinai will get a farm in Egypt.

The commandments that MATTER are the ones of Jesus - do THOSE, and you get a room in God's City at the end of time. Defy THOSE, and you get thrown into the fire at final judgment. There is overlap with the law given to the Jews, but the purpose is different.

As far as just following God through the faith, that's swell. But if your faith is telling you that it's fine to do what Jesus prohibited, then your faith is false and the spirit that is whispering in your ear is not the Holy Spirit but a demon.

In truth, if you want to get into Heaven, you can set aside the entire Old Testament, and all of the epistles of the New Testament, and just read Revelation and one Gospel and the early part of Acts, looking at what Jesus said to DO and NOT do. And if you DO that, and REFRAIN from that, you are following Jesus, and will be acceptable to him at judgment.

If your faith is true, and the spirit you are following is true, the spirit will be leading you directly towards those things.

But if the spirit of faith that you're following is telling you that it's ok to be a coward, to be sexually immoral, to slay people, to lie, to blow your mind on drugs, to deny God or follow Gods other than Jesus' father and teach others the same, then that spirit is an evil one leading you into a pit.

But if the spirit is teaching you to avoid those things, to love everybody and not be judgmental and to forgive and to be generous and not hoard up wealth, then that is the Holy Spirit leading you, and you don't have to read the Bible.

The Bible is a backstop, a written guide to know if you're going off the rails. And all you REALLY need to know that is one Gospel and the first few chapters of Acts. The actual LAW of the new covenant is in there.

The rest is explanatory material: where we come from, why God set the things as he did, why Jesus was a Jew, but why he calls us not to be Jews but followers of him to the Father directly. All of that.

One can get to all of that just through the Holy Spirit, directly from God. That is true. But the reason that the New Testament was written in the first place, was that lots and lots of people hear spirits and follow them, but they cannot discern between the good ones and the evil ones, and so go astray and lead others astray by the spirit. The written text of Gospel and Revelation provide the "from Jesus' own mouth" rules by which a man may TEST the spirits that are leading him.

That's the truth of it. If you don't want to listen to me say it, then don't.

But if the faith you've been bestowed is telling you that it's ok to go kill people to establish your dominion, then that spirit leading you is not God but Satan, and you would know that by reading the written record God left so that you could test that spirit. If you refuse to use the book to make that test, then you're throwing away the lifeboat God life you so that you would not go astray.

That's the truth of it too, and why the Scripture matters.

The reason we're having all of these fights is that I keep saying what Christ actually SAID, and people, led by their "spirits" keep not wanting to do it, and then accusing ME of being evil or satanic for urging them to stop following demons and get back to doing exactly what Christ said to do.

That's the whole reason for the discussion.

And yes, I say that one CAN rely on the KJV for what Christ said, which is really the LAW that WE are bound to. The Law of Moses is gone, but the Law of Christ is forever. Lawlessness will earn you the pit.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-10-23   7:29:10 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: Vicomte13 (#35)

and not be judgmental

Is it a sin to judge people?

A K A Stone  posted on  2015-10-23   7:34:39 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: A K A Stone (#36)

Is it a sin to judge people?

It is something God tells us to not do.

"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged." - Jesus, quoted in Matthew 7.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-10-23   8:33:15 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Vicomte13 (#39)

It is something God tells us to not do.

John 7:24King James Version (KJV)

24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

So there you have it again. You misrepresent what the Bible actually says. That is why I asked you to document your claims.

A K A Stone  posted on  2015-10-23   9:04:26 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: A K A Stone (#40)

So there you have it again. You misrepresent what the Bible actually says. That is why I asked you to document your claims.

You continue to render a stream of unrighteous judgment.

Which is why I am using your selected text and going through it from the beginning, so that you can stop twisting Scripture to your own destruction.

Now I'm going back to Genesis 1 and will be moving forward from there.

You take Scripture out of context and play around with it to get the result you want. You are only deceiving yourself.

To maintain proper context I am going through it front to back. I will continue to do so, and ignore the personal attacks.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-10-23   9:35:01 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: Vicomte13 (#43)

I will continue to do so, and ignore the personal attacks.

It isn't a personal attack when you claim God said not to judge. When he actually said to judge righteously.

I don't disagree with everything you are saying. I'm just commenting when I disagree.

A K A Stone  posted on  2015-10-23   22:33:32 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: A K A Stone (#48)

It isn't a personal attack when you claim God said not to judge. When he actually said to judge righteously.

But he did not "actually" say to judge righteously. I gave you the full quote. He said 'Don't judge, or you will be judged, and you will be judged using the standard by which you judged.' You didn't address what Jesus said there. You just skipped ahead to some other part of the Bible where he warned to judge righteously.

Those things all go together. You're going to be judged by the standards by which you judged. We all are. If we are hypocrites who hold others to a harsh standard, we've bought that standard for ourselves. So we'd better judge righteously. But what is the nature of that judgment? What is righteous and good? There is none good but God - Jesus said that too. And God said "Vengeance is mine alone."

So, what is this "just judging" that a man dares to do?

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-10-23   22:51:25 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 50.

#51. To: Vicomte13 (#50)

God said judge righteous judgement.

A K A Stone  posted on  2015-10-23 22:57:30 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 50.

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