[Home]  [Headlines]  [Latest Articles]  [Latest Comments]  [Post]  [Mail]  [Sign-in]  [Setup]  [Help]  [Register] 

[FULL VIDEO] Police release bodycam footage of Monroe County District Attorney Sandra Doorley traffi Police clash with pro-Palestine protesters on Ohio State University campus Joe Rogan Experience #2138 - Tucker Carlson Police Dispersing Student Protesters at USC - Breaking News Coverage (College Protests) What Passover Means For The New Testament Believer Are We Closer Than Ever To The Next Pandemic? War in Ukraine Turns on Russia what happened during total solar eclipse Israel Attacks Iran, Report Says - LIVE Breaking News Coverage Earth is Scorched with Heat Antiwar Activists Chant ‘Death to America’ at Event Featuring Chicago Alderman Vibe Shift A stream that makes the pleasant Rain sound. Older Men - Keep One Foot In The Dark Ages When You Really Want to Meet the Diversity Requirements CERN to test world's most powerful particle accelerator during April's solar eclipse Utopian Visionaries Who Won’t Leave People Alone No - no - no Ain'T going To get away with iT Pete Buttplug's Butt Plugger Trying to Turn Kids into Faggots Mark Levin: I'm sick and tired of these attacks Questioning the Big Bang James Webb Data Contradicts the Big Bang Pssst! Don't tell the creationists, but scientists don't have a clue how life began A fine romance: how humans and chimps just couldn't let go Early humans had sex with chimps O’Keefe dons bulletproof vest to extract undercover journalist from NGO camp. Biblical Contradictions (Alleged) Catholic Church Praising Lucifer Raising the Knife One Of The HARDEST Videos I Had To Make.. Houthi rebels' attack severely damages a Belize-flagged ship in key strait leading to the Red Sea (British Ship) Chinese Illegal Alien. I'm here for the moneuy Red Tides Plague Gulf Beaches Tucker Carlson calls out Nikki Haley, Ben Shapiro, and every other person calling for war: {Are there 7 Deadly Sins?} I’ve heard people refer to the “7 Deadly Sins,” but I haven’t been able to find that sort of list in Scripture. Abomination of Desolation | THEORY, BIBLE STUDY Bible Help Libertysflame Database Updated Crush EVERYONE with the Alien Gambit! Vladimir Putin tells Tucker Carlson US should stop arming Ukraine to end war Putin hints Moscow and Washington in back-channel talks in revealing Tucker Carlson interview Trump accuses Fulton County DA Fani Willis of lying in court response to Roman's motion Mandatory anti-white racism at Disney. Iceland Volcano Erupts For Third Time In 2 Months, State Of Emergency Declared Tucker Carlson Interview with Vladamir Putin How will Ar Mageddon / WW III End? What on EARTH is going on in Acts 16:11? New Discovery! 2023 Hottest in over 120 Million Years 2024 and beyond in prophecy Questions Status: Not Logged In; Sign In U.S. Constitution See other U.S. Constitution Articles Title: nolu chan contends an amendment to repeal the 2nd Amdt could be passed Source: LF URL Source: [None] Published: Jul 9, 2015 Author: tpaine Post Date: 2015-07-09 10:39:45 by tpaine Keywords: None Views: 70933 Comments: 255 The Congress proposes, and three-fourths of the states ratify the following amendment AMENDMENT 28. Section 1. The second article of amendment is hereby repealed. Section 2. The individual right to keep and bear, buy, make, and use arms is limited to .22 caliber handguns only. Section 3. All non-conforming guns must be surrendered to government authorities or destroyed within 30 days of ratification of this amendment. Section 4. The Congress shall have the power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation. Poster Comment: During a discussion with Nolu Chan, he asserted that an amendment repealing the 2nd could be ratified, and become a valid part of our Constitution. I contend such an amendment would be unconstitutional. Comments? Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread   Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest Comments (1-54) not displayed.       .       .       . #55. To: tpaine (#53) They are doing it. Don  posted on  2015-07-09   17:37:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #56. To: Vicomte13 (#42) Every official at every level of gov't is honor bound - (by their oath of office), to support and defend our Constitution. "honor bound"? What is this thing, "honor"? -- Define it.--- What are its parameters? ---- Who says? ---- Who enforces it? Our various govts should enforce it. --- But as to the rest, perhaps you should consult your mental/moral health advisor. tpaine  posted on  2015-07-09   17:39:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #57. To: Don (#44) Did the U.S. Supreme Court just legislate gay marriage for the fifty states? Some people have the opinion that the SCOTUS opinion meant that, but I'd bet 'we' don't comply, any more than we complied with prohibition, -- or would comply with an amendment to repeal the 2nd.. Isn't it the Constitutional limitation for that Court to interpret the laws in accordance with the Constitution, rather than make Federal law? Absolutely correct.. -- Only laws (or amendments) made "in pursuance thereof" (as the supremacy clause says) are part of our supreme law, the Constitution.. tpaine  posted on  2015-07-09   17:52:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #58. To: tpaine, Gatlin, Vicomte13, tomder55, TooConservative, Liberator, Stoner, Don, goldilucky (#0) Below is the actual exchange on another thread, in context. One may readily recognize that tpaine's espoused blather therein is meritless. Dream on that in Nolu Chan's world such an amendment could be valid. It would violate every principle inherent in our constitution, and thus would be null and void from its enactment. This highlights tpaine's ignorance of the law and amendments. Amendments are not enactments. Common legislation of Congress is enacted into law. He erroneously misconstrues the Supremacy Clause to imagine that a constitutional Amendment equates with common legislation. Amendments are ratified by the people acting in their sovereign capacity. The Congress does not have a yea or nay on ratification, and the President does not sign it into law. In a ministerial action, the ratification is certified as having happened. From that point forward, any amendment is considered a part of the Constitution, equal with all other parts of the Constitution. The imaginary world of tpaine: Congress has the power to refuse to fund any efforts to implement the unconstitutional amendment, and to tell the people why. ... It has the power to issue an opinion that such an amendment is unconstitutional.. ... No entity in the government created by the will of the people, as expressed in the Constitution, may lawfully act contrary to the Constitution or with a purpose to subvert any part of the Constitution. The Constitution is the paramount and expresses those powers which the people chose to delegate to the Federal government. Congress has no lawful power to subvert any part of the Constitution by defunding. Congress does not have any lawful power to strike down any part of the Constitution. Neither Congress nor the Supreme Court has any lawful authority to issue an opinion that any part of the Constitution is unconstitutional or null and void. #134. To: tpaine (#123) Does this mean you would contend that an amendment could be passed that prohibited our inalienable rights to buy, make, or use guns? The new, revised and better Declaration of Independence. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness, and to buy, make, or use guns. An amendment to the constitution, made by the people in their sovereign capacity, with the permission and approval of tpaine, to delegate to the government the power to regulate the newfound inalienable right to buy, make, or use guns, may be enacted only in accordance with the new, revised and better Article 5, as enacted by the tpaine court of the imagination. The new, revised and better Article 5: The Congress, whenever two thirds of both houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose amendments to this Constitution, or, on the application of the legislatures of two thirds of the several states, shall call a convention for proposing amendments, which, in either case, shall be valid to all intents and purposes, as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the legislatures of three fourths of the several states, or by conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other mode of ratification may be proposed by the Congress; provided that the amendment may be considered common legislation; and provided further that tpaine approves the content; and provided further that the amendment may be deemed unconstitutional; and provided further that the courts may strike down the amendment; and provided that no amendment which may be made prior to the year one thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any manner affect the first and fourth clauses in the ninth section of the first article; and that no state, without its consent, shall be deprived of its equal suffrage in the Senate. The Congress proposes, and three-fourths of the states ratify the following amendment in tpaineworld. AMENDMENT 28. Section 1. The second article of amendment is hereby repealed. Section 2. The individual right to keep and bear, buy, make, and use arms is limited to .22 caliber handguns only. Section 3. All non-conforming guns must be surrendered to government authorities or destroyed within 30 days of ratification of this amendment. Section 4. The Congress shall have the power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation. Other than soiling yourself and bleating about it, what is to be done in tpaineworld? Does the Congress pass contrary legislation, telling the people that they have abused their sovereign right to amend their constitution? Does the Court strike down this part of the Constitution as unconstitutional? Does the Deemer of tpaineworld deem this part of the Constitution null and void? Does the tpaine court of the imagination tell the people that they can't infringe the right to buy, make, and use arms; deemed an unalienable right by the tpaine imaginary revised, new and improved Declaration of Independence. nolu chan  posted on  2015-07-09   1:09:28 ET - - - - - #136. To: nolu chan, proposes an amendment to repeal the 2nd !! (#134) I asked you if this means you would contend that an amendment could be passed that prohibited our inalienable rights to buy, make, or use guns? Your last post indicates you think this would be possible, and you even outline such an amendment: --- The Congress proposes, and three-fourths of the states ratify the following amendment in Nolu Chan's world. AMENDMENT 28. Section 1. The second article of amendment is hereby repealed. Section 2. The individual right to keep and bear, buy, make, and use arms is limited to .22 caliber handguns only. Section 3. All non-conforming guns must be surrendered to government authorities or destroyed within 30 days of ratification of this amendment. Section 4. The Congress shall have the power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation. Other than soiling yourself and bleating about it, what is to be done in tpaineworld? --- Does the Congress pass contrary legislation, telling the people that they have abused their sovereign right to amend their constitution? Congress has the power to refuse to fund any efforts to implement the unconstitutional amendment, and to tell the people why. Does the Court strike down this part of the Constitution as unconstitutional? It has the power to issue an opinion that such an amendment is unconstitutional.. Does the Deemer of tpaineworld deem this part of the Constitution null and void? ----- Does the tpaine court of the imagination tell the people that they can't infringe the right to buy, make, and use arms; deemed an unalienable right by the tpaine imaginary revised, new and improved Declaration of Independence. Dream on that in Nolu Chan's world such an amendment could be valid. It would violate every principle inherent in our constitution, and thus would be null and void from its enactment. tpaine  posted on  2015-07-09   10:24:44 ET - - - - - nolu chan  posted on  2015-07-09   20:07:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #59. To: tpaine, Gatlin, Vicomte13, tomder55, TooConservative, Liberator, Stoner, Don, goldilucky (#58) The conversation was in the context of my repeatedly citing the actual law and legal precedent. Your opinion, and that of the court, is erroneous. In wingnut world, wingnuttery rules. In the real world, saying the court is erroneous does not change the fact that their holding is the law. amendments to the constitution can be deemed unconstitutional. No power of the government can deem any part of the Constitution to be null and void. The matter of ratification is a political question and the courts have no jurisdiction over political questions. holding that the official notice to the Secretary of State, duly authenticated, of the action of the legislatures of the States, whose alleged ratifications were assailed, was conclusive upon the Secretary of State, and that his proclamation accordingly of ratification was conclusive upon the courts, we affirmed the judgment of the state court. Coleman v Miller, 307 U.S. 433, 440 (1939) The Supreme Court said it — "the official notice to the Secretary of State, duly authenticated … was conclusive upon the courts." LaVergne’s claims also fail on other grounds, including lack of justiciability. LaVergne’s constitutional challenge to § 2a is primarily based on his argument that the apportionment method violates Article the First. He alleges that this proposed constitutional amendment was ratified by the states in November 1791 or June 1792. Putting aside the considerable factual and historical problems with his argument, “[t]he issue of whether a constitutional amendment has been properly ratified is a political question.” United States v. McDonald, 919 F.2d 146, 1990 WL 186103 (table), at *3 (9th Cir. 1990) (per curiam) (citing Coleman v. Miller, 307 U.S. 433, 450 (1939)). In Coleman, the Supreme Court held that “the question of the efficacy of ratifications by state legislatures . . . should be regarded as a political question pertaining to the political departments, with the ultimate authority in the Congress in the exercise of its control over the promulgation of the adoption of the amendment.” 307 U.S. at 450. See also Luther v. Borden, 48 U.S. (7 How.) 1, 39 (1849) (holding that “the political department has always determined whether the proposed constitution or amendment was ratified or not by the people of the State, and the judicial power has followed its decision”); United States v. Foster, 789 F.2d 457, 463 n.6 (7th Cir. 1986) (holding that the issue of “the validity of an amendment’s ratification [is] a non-justiciable political question” and citing, among other cases, Leser v. Garnett, 258 U.S. 130, 137 (1922), and Coleman, 307 U.S. at 450). LaVergne v Bryson, Secretary of Commerce, 3rd Cir 12-1171 (20 Sep 2012) And in tpaine's court of the imagination, "amendments to the constitution can be deemed unconstitutional." SCOTUS opinions apply to the case at hand and are given due consideration by the other branches of govt, and by the people. All you need to do is believe that when the court held Jane Roe has a constitutional right to an abortion, it only applied to Jane Roe. And when the court held that Obergefell had a constitutional right to marry a person of the same sex, it only applied to Obergefell. In wingnutworld, the legislature and the executive can give the holdings due consideration and choose whether to ignore them or not. Asserting the Supremacy Clause somehow supports the absurd claim that constitutional amendments can be deemed unconstitutional: But you can't refute the fact of the supremacy clause. Demonstrating a delusion about what the Supremacy Clause does, and explaining why his legal logic is so dicked up. Legislation (or amendments) passed contrary to the constitution, are null and void. The Supremacy Clause at Article 6, states, This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding. tpaine labors under the delusion that this clause sets the Constitution at equivalency with ordinary legislated laws and United States treaties. As legislation can be struck down by the court as unconstitutional, this brain fart entices him to imagine that the Constititution can be struck down by the court, or that amendments may be deemed unconstitutional, or that amendments pronounced ratified may be struck down by the courts — this only works if laws made by the legislature are equal to the Constitution, and that is so only in some imaginary world. Ignoring the holding in Coleman, (1939), not to mention the recitation of precedents in LaVergne v. Bryson (2012). What the Supremacy Clause actually states is that any form of Federal law takes precedence over any form of State law, whether the State law be statutory or constitutional. Note that the clause in the 6th Amendment only applied to "judges in every state." Read narrowly, the Supremacy Clause binds only state judges. But other provisions of the Constitution, most notably the Fourteenth Amendment, directly constrain the action of all state officials, often without regard to whether state courts have ruled on the validity of those officials' acts; moreover, Article VI declares that "the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers . . . of the several states, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution. ... " Accordingly, the Court has not limited to state judges its demand for compliance with the federal Constitution. In Cooper v. Aaron, a school desegregation case decided against the background of Governor Faubus's resistance to the desegregation of public schools in Little Rock, Arkansas, the Supreme Court asserted what is probably its broadest definition of its own power: "Marbury v. Madison ... declared the basic principle that the federal judiciary is supreme in the exposition of the law of the Constitution, and that principle has ever since been respected by this Court and the country as a permanent and indispensable feature of our constitutional system. It follows that the interpretation of the Fourteenth Amendment enunciated by this Court in the Brown case is the supreme law of the land.... Every state legislator and executive and judicial officer is solemnly committed by oath ... 'to support this Constitution.'" Laurence H. Tribe, American Constitutional Law, 3rd Ed., Vol. 1 (2000), pg. 255. In tpaine's court of the imagination, the court and Laurence Tribe are erroneous, along with anyone that does not adopt the absurd notions that flow from his imagination. Everyone in America knows that laws are struck down by the court when they are found to conflict with the Constitution. The Constitution is the paramount law and takes precedence over all other American law. Treaties and federal statutes are equal (but below the Constitution), with the most recently adopted controlling. Treaties, agreements between the United States and a foreign country that are negotiated by the president and ratified by the Senate, are permitted unless they violate the Constitution. It is firmly established that if there is a conflict between a treaty and a federal statute, the one adopted last in time controls. * * * Treaties, however, cannot violate the Constitution. Constitutional Law, Principles and Policies, 2 Ed., Erwin Chemerinsky, 2002 at 361 The quote below proves that the SCOTUS heard and considered the constitutionality of the new amendment.. -- Your opinion is wrong... This particular idiocy relates to the National Prohibition Cases in 1920, which was several prohibition cases heard together at the SCOTUS level. The question was not before the court to determine the constitutionality of the 18th Amendment. An amendment cannot be unconstitutional. Counsel did not argue the the amendment was unconstitutional, he argued that, due to its content, it was ordinary legislation and not an amendment at all. And, as ordinary legislation, the court had the authority to strike it down, according to this creative argument. Trust tpaine to bloviate endlessly about crap he has not seen or read. On brief: In this respect a constitutional amendment granting to the government power to prohibit intoxicants would be quite different from an attempted amendment itself directly declaring the prohibition of intoxicants. The former would merely add to the powers of government and would, therefore, in this regard at least, be a proper form of constitutional amendment; while the latter in its essence neither would add nor withdraw powers of government, but would be direct legislation. The Eighteenth Amendment is, therefore, in substance and effect a statute, not a constitutional provision akin to any in the federal Constitution. The briefs were ridiculed in W. F. Dodd, Amending the Federal Constitution, Yale Law Journal, Vl XXX, No. 4, February 1921, p. 322. This is the Yale Law Journal, not tpaine's court of the imagination. The briefs presented against the validity of the Eighteenth Amendment are addressed more to what the opposing interests thought ought to be, than to any issues which may properly be termed legal in character. When read, these briefs in many cases seem to be arguments of counsel who were employed to find arguments, and must, therefore, do so, even though they knew the arguments to be untenable. The most effective statements presented to the Court were those submitted in behalf of a number of states as amici curiae, in the cases of Kentucky Distilleries and Warehouse Co. v. Gregory and Rhode Island v. Palmer. These briefs bear the name of Mr. Charles E. Hughes. The argument was characterized in W. F. Dodd, Amending the Federal Constitution, Yale Law Journal, V1 XXX, No. 4, February 1921, p. 333. This argument might be termed somewhat ridiculous, had it not appeared under the distinguished name of Mr. Elihu Root. [...] Mr. Hughes’ brief in the Kentucky Distilleries Case presents the situation even more vigorously: “And what is ‘legislation’ which is thus said to lie outside the scope of the amending power according to the theory presented? Is it that the amendment must not be self-executing? But the obvious answer is that the Thirteenth Amendment is self-executing and it has been so adjudged by this court.... “Is it that the amendment must not directly affect the rights of persons without the intervention of legislation? The Thirteenth Amendment did that, for it made free men out of slaves. “Is it that the amendment must not directly disturb without further legislation vested rights of property? But the Thirteenth Amendment destroyed property in slaves. “The attempt is made to explain in some way that the Thirteenth Amendment, which did all these things, was not legislation. It is impossible then to understand in what sense the term “legislation” is used. For that which establishes a rule of law which, being self-executing, determines without further legislation the rights and status of persons and rights of property manifestly has the direct operation and effect of legislation.” The 18th Amendment was an amendment, not common legislation. nolu chan  posted on  2015-07-09   20:15:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #60. To: Stoner, tpaine (#20) Well, I guess they could propose and vote on such an amendment. But I would suspect that anyone & everyone that tried to get it passed, would soon seriously regret their participation! Congress can vote to propose an Amendment. The States that have ratified the Constitution are parties to the Constitution, not the Federal government. Congress gets no vote on ratification. That is by the State legislatures or State conventions. An amendment is ratified rather than passed, and it is adopted when three-fourths of the States have ratified. It is a sovereign act of the people, as was the adoption of the original Constitution before the constitutional government existed. nolu chan  posted on  2015-07-09   20:32:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #61. To: redleghunter (#54) During a discussion with Nolu Chan, he asserted that an amendment repealing the 2nd could be ratified, and become a valid part of our Constitution. I contend such an amendment would be unconstitutional. Comments? First off, creating a vanity thread to call out another poster is bad manners. That's your opinion, and I see you've pinged AKA Stone to give us his, --- but I think we're here to discuss the issues of the day, and Chan has certainly raised one by insisting the 2nd could be repealed. Second, I looked at comments so far and one of two possibilities are evident: - -- 1. Chan is showing restraint and dignity in not responding to your carnival barking. --- or ---- 2. His response is forthcoming and no doubt he will hand you your 4th point of contact (for the civilians in the room the 4th point of contact is what you sit on; for paratroopers it is the 'fourth point' of the body hitting the ground in a 'dynamite' parachute landing fall [PLF]) I served a couple of years in the 503rd and 502nd regiments, so your attempts to instruct me about 'PLF' is as silly as your "carnival barking" about this thread. By all means, come back when you have a real point to discuss.. tpaine  posted on  2015-07-09   20:35:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #62. To: tpaine, redleghunter, nolu chan (#61) I said to you before that you need to listen to nolu chan. I now say to you that you need to also listen to redleghunter. It will be to your advantage to learn from them. Gatlin  posted on  2015-07-09   20:44:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #63. To: Don, tpaine (#44) Did the U.S. Supreme Court just legislate gay marriage for the fifty states? Isn't it the Constitutional limitation for that Court to interpret the laws in accordance with the Constitution, rather than make Federal law? The Court majority found a fundamental right to same-sex marriage somewhere in the due process clause, in a manner similar to how it found a right to abortion. I disagree with their "interpretation" of the Constitution, but it is not legislation. Were it legislation, it could be overturned by Congress with more legislation. A Supreme Court holding on a constitutional issue can only be changed by a constitutional amendment or by the Court itself revisiting the issue in a subsequent case. There can be no appeal of the decided case. nolu chan  posted on  2015-07-09   20:45:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #64. To: Gatlin (#62) I said to you before that you need to listen to nolu chan. I now say to you that you need to also listen to redleghunter. It will be to your advantage to learn from them. Never fear my boy, I'm learning a lot from all you authoritarians. -- And I'm sure others here are. Probably, they're learning more about your politics than you want them to know.. tpaine  posted on  2015-07-09   21:04:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #65. To: nolu chan (#60) What you state is true. My comments would apply to those proposing said amendment ( Congress ) and those voting to ratify ( states ) Si vis pacem, para bellum Stoner  posted on  2015-07-09   21:06:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #66. To: tpaine (#64) Nolu chan is right on this one. It wouldn't be right morally. But it would follow the process laid out in the constitution. Remember the constitution isn't perfect. It is man made and contains flaws. It is worth protecting. A K A Stone  posted on  2015-07-09   21:08:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #67. To: tpaine, Liberator (#40) Not so. Every official at every level of gov't is honor bound to protect and defend the Constitution as written, not as interpreted by the SCOTUS. Even where one feels the opinion of the Court is erroneous, their opinion matters. Abortion and same-sex marriage is legal. All Federal and State laws to the contrary were struck down. However tpaine stated, Your opinion, and that of the court, is erroneous. http://www.supremecourt.gov/about/constitutional.aspx U.S. Supreme Court website: The Court and Constitutional Interpretation When the Supreme Court rules on a constitutional issue, that judgment is virtually final; its decisions can be altered only by the rarely used procedure of constitutional amendment or by a new ruling of the Court. However, when the Court interprets a statute, new legislative action can be taken. https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/2/409/case.html Hayburn’s Case, 2 US 409, 414 (1792) “That the duties assigned to the circuit courts by this act are not of that description, and that the act itself does not appear to contemplate them as such, inasmuch as it subjects the decisions of these courts, made pursuant to those duties, first to the consideration and suspension of the Secretary at War and then to the revision of the legislature, whereas by the Constitution, neither the Secretary at War nor any other Executive officer, nor even the legislature, is authorized to sit as a court of errors on the judicial acts or opinions of this court.” http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/358/1.html Cooper v Aaron, 358 US 1, 18 (1958) Article VI of the Constitution makes the Constitution the “supreme Law of the Land.” In 1803, Chief Justice Marshall, speaking for a unanimous Court, referring to the Constitution as “the fundamental and paramount law of the nation,” declared in the notable case of Marbury v. Madison, 1 Cranch 137, 177, that “It is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is.” This decision declared the basic principle that the federal judiciary is supreme in the exposition of the law of the Constitution, and that principle has ever since been respected by this Court and the Country as a permanent and indispensable feature of our constitutional system. nolu chan  posted on  2015-07-09   21:13:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #68. To: tpaine (#64) (Edited) Just so you know, every piece of content about the US Constitution can be destroyed by legislative acts. The Bill of Rights or any Amendments are not exonerated from the legislative process, either; I assume you think the Bill of Rights are built on a bedrock or fixed foundation that is unshakable. What is really sad is the government knows this FACT. That is why America is sinking into a cesspool of illegal immigration; it is to liberalize the foundations of America by creating a fascist government by clever opinions outside of American cultural norms or societal standards. Just as the Confederate Flag goes away for some of the states; just as the Ten Commandments goes away for some of the states; so goes the second amendment. buckeroo  posted on  2015-07-09   21:14:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #69. To: A K A Stone (#66) Remember the constitution isn't perfect. It is man made and contains flaws. Yeah! They tried to take away our rights to drinking whiskey; and they gave it back! Now, if we can get rid of the fed. buckeroo  posted on  2015-07-09   21:18:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #70. To: nolu chan (#63) Don (#44) --- Did the U.S. Supreme Court just legislate gay marriage for the fifty states? Some people have the opinion that the SCOTUS opinion meant that, but I'd bet 'we' don't comply, any more than we complied with prohibition, -- or would comply with an amendment to repeal the 2nd.. Isn't it the Constitutional limitation for that Court to interpret the laws in accordance with the Constitution, rather than make Federal law? Absolutely correct.. -- Only laws (or amendments) made "in pursuance thereof" (as the supremacy clause says) are part of our supreme law, the Constitution.. Nolu Chan -- The Court majority found a fundamental right to same-sex marriage somewhere in the due process clause, in a manner similar to how it found a right to abortion. --- I disagree with their "interpretation" of the Constitution, but it is not legislation. Were it legislation, it could be overturned by Congress with more legislation. We agree... A Supreme Court holding on a constitutional issue can only be changed by a constitutional amendment or by the Court itself revisiting the issue in a subsequent case. There can be no appeal of the decided case. We disagree. -- There is nothing in our constitution itself that supports your opinion. -- Your lengthy postings of opinions by other authorities are just that, --- opinions. They do not prove your case. tpaine  posted on  2015-07-09   21:19:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #71. To: buckeroo, tpaine, nolu chan, All (#68) The Bill of Rights or any Amendments are not exonerated from the legislative process, either; I assume you think the Bill of Rights are built on a bedrock or fixed foundation that is unshakable. The only rights that one has in the real world are the rights that one can defend. Otherwise it's Katy bar the door. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь SOSO  posted on  2015-07-09   21:23:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #72. To: A K A Stone, tpaine (#66) Nolu chan is right on this one. It wouldn't be right morally. But it would follow the process laid out in the constitution. Remember the constitution isn't perfect. It is man made and contains flaws. If the sovereign people do not have the power to change the organic law of the country as they choose, the Constitution and the government formed under it surely resulted from unlawful acts. The explanation of the power exercised is that the people are the sovereigns, and the sovereign answers to nobody. There is no guarantee they will act wisely. It was definitely not done pursuant to the Articles of Confederation. Article 13 of the Articles of Confederation: Every State shall abide by the determination of the United States in Congress assembled, on all questions which by this confederation are submitted to them. And the Articles of this Confederation shall be inviolably observed by every State, and the Union shall be perpetual; nor shall any alteration at any time hereafter be made in any of them; unless such alteration be agreed to in a Congress of the United States, and be afterwards confirmed by the legislatures of every State. nolu chan  posted on  2015-07-09   21:24:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #73. To: tpaine (#70) Your lengthy postings of opinions by other authorities are just that, --- opinions. They do not prove your case. Your posting your wingnut nonsense certainly does not prove your point. nolu chan  posted on  2015-07-09   21:27:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #74. To: SOSO, tpaine (#71) The only rights that one has in the real world are the rights that one can defend. Good commentary. The issue today, particularly because the US government is so weak with debt while stricken with an anemic economy for the past decade is, they are ripping the place up attempting to install disipline to the people obeying a government. Tpaine makes good points about his considerations. But the second amendment (as all amendments) are only reliable and trustworthy as the people and the representative government that is voted by the people. buckeroo  posted on  2015-07-09   21:34:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #75. To: tpaine, tomder55 (#53) The constitutionality of the 18th was challenged in 1920. The SCOTUS declined to issue an opinion on that specific issue, and left it at that, whereupon damn near everyone ignored the 'amendment, until it was repealed. This claim is false, as previously explained thoroughly on the other thread. The question was not before the court to determine the constitutionality of the 18th Amendment. An amendment cannot be unconstitutional. Counsel did not argue the the amendment was unconstitutional, he argued that, due to its content, it was ordinary legislation and not an amendment at all. And, as ordinary legislation, the court had the authority to strike it down, according to this creative argument. Trust tpaine to bloviate endlessly about crap he has not seen or read. On brief: In this respect a constitutional amendment granting to the government power to prohibit intoxicants would be quite different from an attempted amendment itself directly declaring the prohibition of intoxicants. The former would merely add to the powers of government and would, therefore, in this regard at least, be a proper form of constitutional amendment; while the latter in its essence neither would add nor withdraw powers of government, but would be direct legislation. The Eighteenth Amendment is, therefore, in substance and effect a statute, not a constitutional provision akin to any in the federal Constitution. The briefs were ridiculed in W. F. Dodd, Amending the Federal Constitution, Yale Law Journal, Vl XXX, No. 4, February 1921, p. 322. This is the Yale Law Journal, not tpaine's court of the imagination. The briefs presented against the validity of the Eighteenth Amendment are addressed more to what the opposing interests thought ought to be, than to any issues which may properly be termed legal in character. When read, these briefs in many cases seem to be arguments of counsel who were employed to find arguments, and must, therefore, do so, even though they knew the arguments to be untenable. The most effective statements presented to the Court were those submitted in behalf of a number of states as amici curiae, in the cases of Kentucky Distilleries and Warehouse Co. v. Gregory and Rhode Island v. Palmer. These briefs bear the name of Mr. Charles E. Hughes. The argument was characterized in W. F. Dodd, Amending the Federal Constitution, Yale Law Journal, V1 XXX, No. 4, February 1921, p. 333. This argument might be termed somewhat ridiculous, had it not appeared under the distinguished name of Mr. Elihu Root. [...] Mr. Hughes’ brief in the Kentucky Distilleries Case presents the situation even more vigorously: “And what is ‘legislation’ which is thus said to lie outside the scope of the amending power according to the theory presented? Is it that the amendment must not be self-executing? But the obvious answer is that the Thirteenth Amendment is self-executing and it has been so adjudged by this court.... “Is it that the amendment must not directly affect the rights of persons without the intervention of legislation? The Thirteenth Amendment did that, for it made free men out of slaves. “Is it that the amendment must not directly disturb without further legislation vested rights of property? But the Thirteenth Amendment destroyed property in slaves. “The attempt is made to explain in some way that the Thirteenth Amendment, which did all these things, was not legislation. It is impossible then to understand in what sense the term “legislation” is used. For that which establishes a rule of law which, being self-executing, determines without further legislation the rights and status of persons and rights of property manifestly has the direct operation and effect of legislation.” The 18th Amendment was an amendment, not common legislation. In 264 Federal Reporter 186, on the Feigenspan case, the headnotes read, 1. Eighteenth Amendment, with respect to its subject-matter, held within the power to amend given by article 5, and valid. 2. Every grant of power to the federal government, whether by the Constitution as orlglnally framed or by subsequent amendment, necessariy diminished powers of the several st.ates, and that an amendment takes away a pollce power previously In the state dpes not render It invalid. 3. That a constitutional amendment is in effect legislation controlling the conduct of private individuals, in that it ordains a final permanent law prohibiting certain acts, not alterable at the will of a majority, does not render it invalid. 4. The provision of Const. art. 5, authorizing Congress to propose amendments "whenever two-thirds of both houses shall deem it necessary," does not require that a joint resolution proposing an amendment shall expressly declare that it is deemed necessary. 5. Congress alone, of all departments of the federal government, is intrusted with the power of proposing amendments to the Constitution, and the form of resolutions by which it proposes an amendment is not subject to judicial investigation. 6. In Const. art. 5, providing that a proposed amendment shall be valid "when ratified by the legislatures of three-fourths of the several states," when that mode shall be proposed by Congress, the word "Legislature" means the then recognized representative law-making bodies of the states, and the validity of an amendment ratified by the requisite number of such Legislatures cannot be affected by state laws providing for, or permitting, a referendum vote on legislative acts. 7. Eighteenth Amendment, § 2, providing that "the Congress and the several states shall have concurrent power to enforce this article by appropriate legislatlon," must be construed, in harmony with its purpose, to expressly authorize effective legislation for enforcement of section 1, which excludes a construction making concurrence of the states necessary to tbe effectiveness of congressional legislation, and such legislation, if enacted, is parramount, and, while it may be supplemented by state legislation, it cannot be defeated by any action or nonaction of the states. In the absence of action by Congress, any state may enact enforcement legislation effective within its borders. 8. National Prohibition Act Oct. 28, 1919, § 1, in providing that "intoxicating liquor" as used in the act, shall be construed to include all liquors, liquids, or compounds containing one-half of 1 per centum or more of alcohol by volume, does not make a definition which may be declared arbitrary and unconstitutional by the courts, but one which it was within the reasonable discretion of Congress to make for the purposes of the act. 9. National Prohibition Act Oct 28, 1919, held not invalid, as taking private property for public use without just compensution, in violation of Fifth Amendment, because, as incidental to the exercise of a lawful power, loss may result to certain species of property. 10. "Amendment" includes additions to, as well as corrections of, matters already treated, and there is nothing in the context of Const. art. 5, providing that Congress, whenever two-thirds of both houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose amendments, which suggests that it was used in a restricted sense. The Decree in Feigenspan was affirmed by SCOTUS. 253 US 350, 40 Sup Ct 486. nolu chan  posted on  2015-07-09   21:35:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #76. To: A K A Stone, nolu chan, Y'ALL (#66) During a discussion with Nolu Chan, he asserted that an amendment repealing the 2nd could be ratified, and become a valid part of our Constitution. I contend such an amendment would be unconstitutional. Nolu chan is right on this one. I beg to differ. I think we have an unalienable right to keep and bear arms. -- I see nothing in the Constitution itself that says we could amendment away that right. It wouldn't be right morally. But it would follow the process laid out in the constitution. I've been asking Chan to point out where in the Constitution it allows a majority to repeal ANY of our basic inalienable rights. He can't quite find it. --- Can anyone?? Remember the constitution isn't perfect. It is man made and contains flaws. --- It is worth protecting. We agree.. tpaine  posted on  2015-07-09   21:36:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #77. To: buckeroo (#68) I assume you think the Bill of Rights are built on a bedrock or fixed foundation that is unshakable. Damn right.. tpaine  posted on  2015-07-09   21:40:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #78. To: tpaine (#76) I think we have an unalienable right to keep and bear arms. -- I see nothing in the Constitution itself that says we could amendment away that right. Yes you do. It is called the Amendment process. It is a built in mechanism of the US Constitution. Here is an authoritative glimse: The Constitutional Amendment Process The authority to amend the Constitution of the United States is derived from Article V of the Constitution. After Congress proposes an amendment, the Archivist of the United States, who heads the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA), is charged with responsibility for administering the ratification process under the provisions of 1 U.S.C. 106b. The Archivist has delegated many of the ministerial duties associated with this function to the Director of the Federal Register. Neither Article V of the Constitution nor section 106b describe the ratification process in detail. The Archivist and the Director of the Federal Register follow procedures and customs established by the Secretary of State, who performed these duties until 1950, and the Administrator of General Services, who served in this capacity until NARA assumed responsibility as an independent agency in 1985. The Constitution provides that an amendment may be proposed either by the Congress with a two-thirds majority vote in both the House of Representatives and the Senate or by a constitutional convention called for by two-thirds of the State legislatures. None of the 27 amendments to the Constitution have been proposed by constitutional convention. The Congress proposes an amendment in the form of a joint resolution. Since the President does not have a constitutional role in the amendment process, the joint resolution does not go to the White House for signature or approval. The original document is forwarded directly to NARA's Office of the Federal Register (OFR) for processing and publication. The OFR adds legislative history notes to the joint resolution and publishes it in slip law format. The OFR also assembles an information package for the States which includes formal "red-line" copies of the joint resolution, copies of the joint resolution in slip law format, and the statutory procedure for ratification under 1 U.S.C. 106b. The Archivist submits the proposed amendment to the States for their consideration by sending a letter of notification to each Governor along with the informational material prepared by the OFR. The Governors then formally submit the amendment to their State legislatures. In the past, some State legislatures have not waited to receive official notice before taking action on a proposed amendment. When a State ratifies a proposed amendment, it sends the Archivist an original or certified copy of the State action, which is immediately conveyed to the Director of the Federal Register. The OFR examines ratification documents for facial legal sufficiency and an authenticating signature. If the documents are found to be in good order, the Director acknowledges receipt and maintains custody of them. The OFR retains these documents until an amendment is adopted or fails, and then transfers the records to the National Archives for preservation. A proposed amendment becomes part of the Constitution as soon as it is ratified by three-fourths of the States (38 of 50 States). When the OFR verifies that it has received the required number of authenticated ratification documents, it drafts a formal proclamation for the Archivist to certify that the amendment is valid and has become part of the Constitution. This certification is published in the Federal Register and U.S. Statutes at Large and serves as official notice to the Congress and to the Nation that the amendment process has been completed. In a few instances, States have sent official documents to NARA to record the rejection of an amendment or the rescission of a prior ratification. The Archivist does not make any substantive determinations as to the validity of State ratification actions, but it has been established that the Archivist's certification of the facial legal sufficiency of ratification documents is final and conclusive. In recent history, the signing of the certification has become a ceremonial function attended by various dignitaries, which may include the President. President Johnson signed the certifications for the 24th and 25th Amendments as a witness, and President Nixon similarly witnessed the certification of the 26th Amendment along with three young scholars. On May 18, 1992, the Archivist performed the duties of the certifying official for the first time to recognize the ratification of the 27th Amendment, and the Director of the Federal Register signed the certification as a witness. From: http://www.archives.gov/federal-register/constitution/ buckeroo  posted on  2015-07-09   21:42:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #79. To: nolu chan (#73) Nolu Chan -- The Court majority found a fundamental right to same-sex marriage somewhere in the due process clause, in a manner similar to how it found a right to abortion. --- I disagree with their "interpretation" of the Constitution, but it is not legislation. Were it legislation, it could be overturned by Congress with more legislation. We agree... A Supreme Court holding on a constitutional issue can only be changed by a constitutional amendment or by the Court itself revisiting the issue in a subsequent case. There can be no appeal of the decided case. We disagree. -- There is nothing in our constitution itself that supports your opinion. -- Your lengthy postings of opinions by other authorities are just that, --- opinions. They do not prove your case. Your posting your wingnut nonsense certainly does not prove your point. Your pejorative comments lead me to believe you want to end this discussion in a flame war. -- No thanks... tpaine  posted on  2015-07-09   21:45:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #80. To: tpaine (#76) I see nothing in the Constitution itself that says we could amendment away that right. I see no limitation on the amendments. Is there somewhere that says the second amendment can't be amended. Now I think it is a stupid idea to try to repeal the second amendment. But technically speaking I don't see how it would be unconstitutional. It would be against the Declaration of Independence. A superior document. A K A Stone  posted on  2015-07-09   21:50:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #81. To: tpaine (#77) buckeroo: I assume you think the Bill of Rights are built on a bedrock or fixed foundation that is unshakable. tpaine: Damn right.. In these days of increasing incredible fascism in America, what makes you think there is any safety about our personal dignity or rights anymore? buckeroo  posted on  2015-07-09   21:51:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #82. To: tpaine (#79) Your pejorative comments lead me to believe you want to end this discussion in a flame war. -- No thanks... A flame war does not consist of mildly perjorative comments. I am expressing my disdain for your blather. nolu chan  posted on  2015-07-09   21:55:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #83. To: tpaine, nolu chan (#79) Supreme Court holding on a constitutional issue can only be changed by a constitutional amendment or by the Court itself revisiting the issue in a subsequent case. There can be no appeal of the decided case. We disagree. -- There is nothing in our constitution itself that supports your opinion. -- Who has ever successfully defied a Supreme Court ruling on a consitutional issue? What is the avenue of appeal other than what nolu has identified? потому что Бог хочет это тот путь SOSO  posted on  2015-07-09   21:56:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #84. To: All, tpaine, Deckard (#81) I forgot to include Deckard in my above post. Almost daily, he confirms that a Fascist America is alive & thriving while begging to ensure that a police state over-powers American citizens. buckeroo  posted on  2015-07-09   21:56:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #85. To: buckeroo (#74) But the second amendment (as all amendments) are only reliable and trustworthy as the people and the representative government that is voted by the people. Actually not even that as the recent Supreme Court decisions prove. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь SOSO  posted on  2015-07-09   21:58:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #86. To: tpaine, nolu chan (#83) BTW, what does the Consitution say about the involuntary removal of a Supreme Court judge? потому что Бог хочет это тот путь SOSO  posted on  2015-07-09   21:59:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #87. To: Liberator, tpaine (#9) Chan is only the bearer of bad (obvious) news. Don't kill the messenger. He asked, "Does this mean you would contend that an amendment could be passed that prohibited our inalienable rights to buy, make, or use guns?" [emphasis added] I replied with an example of such an Amendment and asked how it could be struck down. I did not advocate for such an Amendment, but only observed that the people, as the sovereigns, have the power to do it. I would advocate for an amendment strengthening the RKBA and 2nd Amdt. What would prevent an amendment taking away the RKBA today would be the requirement of getting 38 states to ratify it. nolu chan  posted on  2015-07-09   22:03:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #88. To: tpaine (#0) Nolu chan never proposed any such amendment. I changed the Title. A K A Stone  posted on  2015-07-09   22:04:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #89. To: nolu chan (#75) The constitutionality of the 18th was challenged in 1920. The SCOTUS declined to issue an opinion on that specific issue, and left it at that, whereupon damn near everyone ignored the 'amendment, until it was repealed. This claim is false, as previously explained thoroughly on the other thread. Anyone can read the other thread, and see that you did not prove your claim. The question was not before the court to determine the constitutionality of the 18th Amendment. Root made that argument, among others. Your lengthy posts only cite the others, and the opinions about those other arguments.. An amendment cannot be unconstitutional. So you've been claiming, (without any constitutional basis) - for several days now. -- It's your opinion. Counsel did not argue the the amendment was unconstitutional, he argued that, due to its content, it was ordinary legislation and not an amendment at all. And, as ordinary legislation, the court had the authority to strike it down, according to this creative argument. Trust tpaine to bloviate endlessly about crap he has not seen or read. As I've noted before, you seem to want to end this discussion (because you realise you can't what - 'win'?) with a flame war. --- No sale.. tpaine  posted on  2015-07-09   22:05:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #90. To: SOSO (#85) Actually not even that as the recent Supreme Court decisions prove. The US Supreme Court can not strike down an amendment. They infer or "interpret" a decision based acceptable cases rising on their scrutiny for cse law for and about the US Constitution requirements. They are a "whacky, weird set of opinions" too. For what it is worth, I disagree with just about every decision they make. I disagee with the process for their cases, alo ... as they are as politically motivated as a pile of pirates begging for some rum in a nudity bar and getting a quickie in a backroom. buckeroo  posted on  2015-07-09   22:09:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #91. To: SOSO, tpaine (#86) BTW, what does the Consitution say about the involuntary removal of a Supreme Court judge? Article 2, Section 4: The President, Vice President and all civil officers of the United States, shall be removed from office on impeachment for, and conviction of, treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors. In 1804, the Senate held an impeachment trial for U.S. Supreme Court Justice Samuel Chase. He was not convicted. nolu chan  posted on  2015-07-09   22:10:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #92. To: buckeroo (#90) The US Supreme Court can not strike down an amendment. They don't have to strike it down. What would have happened if SCOTUS ruled the other way against the various City and State laws resticting gun ownership by implementing extremely onerous, if not practically impossible, permiting requirements? Also, what happens if the Fed refuses to enforce a constitutional valid law or Supreme Court decision for itself or for a State? SCOTUS does not have any enforcement power. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь SOSO  posted on  2015-07-09   22:16:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #93. To: nolu chan (#91) In 1804, the Senate held an impeachment trial for U.S. Supreme Court Justice Samuel Chase. He was not convicted. Who presided? потому что Бог хочет это тот путь SOSO  posted on  2015-07-09   22:19:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #94. To: nolu chan (#87) I asked, "Does this mean you would contend that an amendment could be passed that prohibited our inalienable rights to buy, make, or use guns?" [emphasis added] I replied with an example of such an Amendment and asked how it could be struck down. ---- I did not advocate for such an Amendment, but only observed that the people, as the sovereigns, have the power to do it. And I read your example, and observed that it seemed you advocated the power of the people to pass such an unconstitutional act.. I would advocate for an amendment strengthening the RKBA and 2nd Amdt. -- What would prevent an amendment taking away the RKBA today would be the requirement of getting 38 states to ratify it. It's unfortunate you didn't revise your comments over on the other thread, isn't it.. tpaine  posted on  2015-07-09   22:19:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #95. To: SOSO (#92) They don't have to strike it down. What would have happened if SCOTUS ruled the other way against the various City and State laws resticting gun ownership by implementing extremely onerous, if not practically impossible, permiting requirements? Well stated. The USSC can simply "interpret the laws under the US Constitution." So, they practice "due diligence" as blacked robed thieves of citizen rights, liberties, freedoms and dignites. They have been performing their black maejiick nearly since their first appearance. buckeroo  posted on  2015-07-09   22:21:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply         .       .       . Comments (96 - 255) not displayed. Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest

[Home]  [Headlines]  [Latest Articles]  [Latest Comments]  [Post]  [Mail]  [Sign-in]  [Setup]  [Help]  [Register]  Please report web page problems, questions and comments to webmaster@libertysflame.com