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New Discovery! 2023 Hottest in over 120 Million Years 2024 and beyond in prophecy Questions Status: Not Logged In; Sign In U.S. Constitution See other U.S. Constitution Articles Title: nolu chan contends an amendment to repeal the 2nd Amdt could be passed Source: LF URL Source: [None] Published: Jul 9, 2015 Author: tpaine Post Date: 2015-07-09 10:39:45 by tpaine Keywords: None Views: 70826 Comments: 255 The Congress proposes, and three-fourths of the states ratify the following amendment AMENDMENT 28. Section 1. The second article of amendment is hereby repealed. Section 2. The individual right to keep and bear, buy, make, and use arms is limited to .22 caliber handguns only. Section 3. All non-conforming guns must be surrendered to government authorities or destroyed within 30 days of ratification of this amendment. Section 4. The Congress shall have the power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation. Poster Comment: During a discussion with Nolu Chan, he asserted that an amendment repealing the 2nd could be ratified, and become a valid part of our Constitution. I contend such an amendment would be unconstitutional. Comments? Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread   Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 33. #3. To: tpaine (#0) During a discussion with Nolu Chan, he asserted that an amendment repealing the 2nd could be ratified, and become a valid part of our Constitution. I contend such an amendment would be unconstitutional. Comments? Nolu Chan is legally correct. Through the amendment process the Constitution can be amended to say anything, except removing equal representation in the Senate. THAT requires unanimity of the states. The Constitution could be amended to require the sacrifice of first-born children. And if the sufficient majorities were found to vote for that, it would be "constitutional". Of course, then treason, and seeking the overthrow and destruction of the Constitution, and supporting foreign invasion and annihilation of the American government, would be the only morally correct thing to do. The Constitution does not guarantee MORAL content. The people have to do that. If the people become depraved and enact depraved laws, then "all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed". America was always depraved. First there was slavery, then there was Indian genocide and segregation. Those things ended, but now we have abortion and the glorification of buggery. Most people think that those evils - slavery, segregation, abortion, gay marriage - are "sufferable evils" and don't rebel. And that would be the case with the Second Amendment abolition also, were it to pass. (Truth is, it could not pass in the current environment). Mandatory sacrifice of firstborn children would be bad enough to justify treason, and would swiftly result in its outbreak. Traitors who win are called "Founding Fathers" of the new order they usher in. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-07-09   10:49:50 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #21. To: Vicomte13 (#3) America was always depraved. First there was slavery, then there was Indian genocide and segregation. Those things ended, but now we have abortion and the glorification of buggery. Disagree wholeheartedly on the above, Vic. In the relative scheme of things, the America of yore was NOT fundamentally evil OR depraved. Its leadership and citizenry by and large WERE a moral people. Contemporary America's standards teach a moral relativity. TOTALLY unlike the days of yore -- and even as recently as 50 years ago. Immorality and depravity are now glorified and sanctioned by America's leaders and institutions -- as well as an appreciable number citizenry. The morality as in the days of yore and defined by Biblical principles are now declared the new verboten. "Always depraved"? Not by a million miles. America was founded and governed fundamentally and extraordinarily morally and ethically. You can't just cherry-pick the way you have. Its few moral shortcomings were indeed addressed eventually and relatively rapidly -- unlike ANY civilization during the 5,000 prior years of history. American became immoral and depraved since the regime of Bill Klintoon, accelerated at the speed of light under the anti-Christ, 0blabla, and his minions. Liberator  posted on  2015-07-09   13:55:04 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #25. To: Liberator (#21) Well, this is where traditional conservatives and I part ways. I dislike the American Founders and do not hold them in any particular esteem. Therefore, I don't care what their intent was. What I care about are the wants and needs of 21st Century Americans in 2015. The structure of government we have underperforms and both under- and over- delivers on many things. To be reasonably free, we need to get society into the sweet spot, which lies above the threshold of enough social infrastructure to provide for the needs of an urbanized society, and below the threshold of overregulation and overcontrol. Going back to the 1700s will not achieve that. We need sewers, and that means eminent domain, taxation, and greater government imposition on private property than the Founders would have accepted. Traditional conservatives are 20% of the electorate. There are not enough of you to win. You need allies. Pragmatic libertarians and pragmatic modern religious moralists - people like me - are the natural allies, and we need allies too. But there have to be terms of agreement. Alliance has to be rooted in the present, without an a priori acceptance of either the Founders' desires, or Christianity or Judaism. A respect for human life and the desire to be as free as is reasonably possible, to not be ruled over and bullied, has to suffice. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-07-09   14:10:32 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #33. To: Vicomte13 (#25) Well, this is where traditional conservatives and I part ways. I dislike the American Founders and do not hold them in any particular esteem. Therefore, I don't care what their intent was. That saddens me, Vic. I realize mankind disappoints you -- as they do me. Heck -- *I* disappoint *myself.* By as imperfect as man is, or the Founders were, they chose the option of We-The-People over We-Your-Lords. They rejected man's fundamental instinct to be King of the Hill and narcissism, for a humble governance and personal sovereignty superseding that of "Rulers." When in history has THAT ever been the case? How do you not respect that?? Those Founders pledged and sacrificed EVERYTHING. What I care about are the wants and needs of 21st Century Americans in 2015. If ONLY 21st Century narcissism of the ruling elite followed the template of the Founders we wouldn't be in this position of tyranny, pseudo-slavery, and a near-dictatorship. The structure of government we have underperforms and both under- and over- delivers on many things. To be reasonably free, we need to get society into the sweet spot, which lies above the threshold of enough social infrastructure to provide for the needs of an urbanized society, and below the threshold of overregulation and overcontrol. Foisting socialism and the 'Great Plantation Society' aka "urban society" RUINED the black family and made generations of blacks fatherless, penniless, and moral-less. Coerced socialism is NOT an American ideal, so I don't know how you can base such a "solution" or responsibility on any moral mooring. Societies that thrive learn to fish. NOT to be confused with a state-mandated obligation to subsidize the lazy and the irresponsible. The truly needy and lame are a different case, as a measure of Christian charity. The "sweet spot" is a matter of individual motivation and planning -- NOT a bureaucratic "Village" holding gun to the head of the rest of us. Going back to the 1700s will not achieve that [enough social infrastructure.] We need sewers, and that means eminent domain, taxation, and greater government imposition on private property than the Founders would have accepted. Pure conjecture. The Founders were wise, and they placed a huge priority on independence, liberty, and commerce and innovation -- but they were also pragmatists. The society of the Founders already pitched in together and helped build infrastructure for the common good of all -- ports, roads, water/sewerage conduits, achieved in large part by free market capitalists by necessity. IF you d like to point at FDR's "workfare" programs as a matter of state-mandated socialist "success stories," THEY were indeed successful because they took the idle and used them to built roads, bridges, sewers, tunnels, etc, for a population never imagined, BUT were necessary. Why can't we (as a compromise) put all those unemployed to work on THESE days for public infrastructure projects? Is it because "Workfare" = "slavery" in some minds? OR it it because Union-Commies have made "workfare" a political hot potato? Traditional conservatives are 20% of the electorate. There are not enough of you to win. You need allies. Pragmatic libertarians and pragmatic modern religious moralists - people like me - are the natural allies, and we need allies too. But there have to be terms of agreement. Yes, yes....I understand the conservative 20% number....and the necessity to aly with those which we disagree to various degrees. So what shall be THE common thread which binds us? Alliance has to be rooted in the present, without an a priori acceptance of either the Founders' desires, or Christianity or Judaism....A respect for human life and the desire to be as free as is reasonably possible, to not be ruled over and bullied, has to suffice. If not bound by traditional embracement of standards of wisdom, liberty, OR the Founders' insistence on personal nd economic sovereignty, than what common cause then binds ANY Americans as allies? ONLY the private sector Liberator  posted on  2015-07-09   14:51:34 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   Replies to Comment # 33. #35. To: Liberator (#33) Societies that thrive learn to fish. Small societies. In a world of 6 billion, if everybody went fishing, the fish stocks in the rivers and lakes and oceans would be gone in a couple of years, and everybody would starve. In the modern, big, industrialized world with billions of people in it, merely learning to fish is NOT ENOUGH. It will certainly result in the end of fishing if everybody who wants or needs to fish just goes out fishing. We MUST have management of fisheries, that say when people can go fishing, and when they can't, and that intervene and stop people from fishing when the fisheries need to recover. Otherwise there will be no fish. That's not a theoretical. That is what has HAPPENED to key fisheries, and still is happening. And it is true across the board. A world with 6 billion people in it where people live in cities, not on farms, is a fundamentally different place that cannot operate on the same principles as a world where people could, and did, simple walk across a line of settlement to go live in the plains or the forests. There's no frontier anymore, and there are too many people to live every-man-for-himself. It saddens me that folks like you refuse to acknowledge this fundamental reality of an industrialized, heavily populated family. If we all live as though it were 1799, we will have epidemics and famines that will make the Black Death look modest. Philosophically, you are devoted to that past. I cannot follow you there. You're willing to look over the sins of the Founders, because you like them. You won't overlook the sins of, say, the Catholics, of any era, because you don't like them. That's nice for you. But no cooperation can be built on it. In realityville, we must have a heavy government infrastructure. And we will. We can make its footprint lighter upon our backs and foreheads, but we cannot will it away. I am willing to work with traditionalist conservatives to make things better. But going back to 1787 doesn't make anything better. So if that's the price, then there's no ability to deal, and that means that the Progressives, Liberals and Communists rule and run the state THEIR way. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-07-09 15:02:15 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #37. To: Liberator (#33) (Edited) Yes, yes....I understand the conservative 20% number....and the necessity to aly with those which we disagree to various degrees. So what shall be THE common thread which binds us? If not bound by traditional embracement of standards of wisdom, liberty, OR the Founders' insistence on personal nd economic sovereignty, than what common cause then binds ANY Americans as allies? ONLY the private sector No, not "the private sector". Life itself. A respect for life itself. First, foremost, we have to decide how sacred life is, and why that is so, and what are its parameters, when can it be taken, and when not. This provides a template for military affairs, law enforcement, abortion, euthanasia, suicide, etc. For the religious, life is sacred because of a commandment of God. For the secular, the "sacredness" of life is a matter of what people value. It's finding the article of common interest, for different reasons, where cooperation is possible, because the subject of life itself moves a great deal of freight. Then we expand out from life to consider other liberties, including financial liberty. In the process, we find pragmatic agreement based on different personal beliefs. This is the approach that can work between seculars and Christians, and between Republicans and Democrats, or so-called "liberals", "libertarians" and "conservatives". Insisting on crucifying the country to the opinions of the Founders won't fly for the simple reason that the vast majority of the people don't care what the Founders thought, and won't. More and more people don't care what Jesus thought either. And Catholics and Protestants think that Jesus thought very different things. Nobody is going to accept anybody else's doctrine. So IF the basis of building anything must be that we all accept somebody else's fundamental doctrine, that means that we all lose, and those who have the largest modern doctrines win. But if we find common moral ground on key issues, and accept and understand that others who do not share our philosophical convictions will go no farther with us than that, we can form quite an immense group. There's no better place to start than you and me. You're a Protestant Christian. I'm a sloppdox Catholic whose reasoning is not based on Scripture but on my own intuitions of right and wrong. I think there is PLENTY of common ground between us, if we try to find it. It's a cinch that we'll never find it by talking about Thomas Jefferson, because I will focus on his hypocrisy. Nor will we find it by discussing St. Paul and Jesus, because our respective Churches actually believe that those men meant different things by what they said. So, instead of refighting the Reformation, the Revolution, the Civil War, the New Deal, the Great Society and all of the rest, and losing the moment, let's seize the moment. Here's a proposition: Human life is fundamental to all of our discussions. As a general rule, people should not kill other people, but sometimes we recognize that they may have to. I would think that every rational person would accept this statement as true: "As a general rule, we all agree that people should not kill other people, but we recognize that sometimes we may have to." Follow me here. Do you agree with this statement: "As a general rule, people should not kill other people, but we recognize that sometimes they may have to." ? This is the first brick for building consensus. It doesn't matter WHY you think it - Christ, YHWH, ahimsa, the Bhudda, your own personal ethics, secular reasoning. The key question is not WHY you agree with the statement, but that you agree with it. Because if you do, then we've found complete common ground, and we can try to take a second step. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-07-09 15:29:02 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   End Trace Mode for Comment # 33. Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest

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