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Title: Obama to Limit Military-Style Equipment for Police Forces
Source:
www.nytimes.com
URL Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/19/u ... t&contentID=WhatsNext&configSe
Published: May 18, 2015
Author: JULIE HIRSCHFELD DAVISMAY
Post Date: 2015-05-18 07:12:48 by CZ82
Keywords: None
Views: 12795
Comments: 49
Obama to Limit Military-Style Equipment for Police Forces By JULIE HIRSCHFELD DAVISMAY 18, 2015 WASHINGTON — President Obama on Monday will ban the federal provision of some types of military-style equipment to local police departments and sharply restrict the availability of others, administration officials said. The ban is part of Mr. Obama’s push to ease tensions between law enforcement and minority communities in reaction to the crises in Baltimore; Ferguson, Mo.; and other cities. He is taking the action after a task force he created in January decided that police departments should be barred from using federal funds to acquire items that include tracked armored vehicles, the highest-caliber firearms and ammunition, and camouflage uniforms. The ban is part of a series of steps the president has made to try to build trust between law enforcement organizations and the citizens they are charged with protecting. Mr. Obama planned to promote the effort on Monday during a visit to Camden, N.J. The city, racked by poverty and crime, has become a national model for better relations between the police and citizens after replacing its beleaguered police force with a county-run system that prioritizes community ties. Mr. Obama is expected to hold up Camden as a counterpoint to places like Ferguson, where the killing of a young black man by a white police officer last summer and the violent protests that followed exposed long-simmering hostility between law enforcement agencies and minorities in cities around the country. The trip and the action on military-style equipment are to coincide with the release on Monday of a report from a policing task force that Mr. Obama formed late last year in response to the crisis in Ferguson. The 116-page report calls for law enforcement agencies to “embrace a guardian — rather than a warrior — mind-set to build trust and legitimacy both within agencies and with the public.” It contains dozens of recommendations for agencies throughout the country. “We are, without a doubt, sitting at a defining moment in American policing,” Ronald L. Davis, the director of the Office of Community Oriented Policing Services at the Department of Justice, told reporters in a conference call organized by the White House. “We have a unique opportunity to redefine policing in our democracy, to ensure that public safety becomes more than the absence of crime, but it must also include a presence for justice.” After the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, the federal government sharply expanded its efforts to provide police departments with automatic weapons, armored vehicles and other military-style gear through grant programs at the Homeland Security and Justice Departments and transfers from the Defense Department. The programs have enjoyed widespread popularity among lawmakers eager to take steps to protect their communities and constantly in search of ways to steer federal money to their districts and states. The report from the task force on military equipment cited the police response to the Ferguson unrest as an example of how the “militarization” of police departments can lead to fear and mistrust. In addition to prohibiting some equipment outright, officials said, Mr. Obama accepted the group’s recommendation to impose new restrictions on other military-style items, such as wheeled armored vehicles, pyrotechnics, battering rams and riot gear, and more stringent requirements for training and information collection for departments that acquire them. “The idea is to make sure that we strike a balance in providing the equipment, which is appropriate and useful and important for local law enforcement agencies to keep the community safe, while at the same time putting standards in place,” said Cecilia Muñoz, the director of Mr. Obama’s Domestic Policy Council. The report to be released on Monday represents a two-pronged response to a problem that has emerged as a central predicament for Mr. Obama in recent months. He has struggled to acknowledge the sense of fear, grievance and victimization by the police that dominates many minority communities without seeming to forgive violence or condemn law enforcement with a broad brush. In doing so, he is grappling with the limits of his power to force changes in police departments around the country, where practices and procedures are varied and the federal government’s ability to influence change can be minimal. The equipment task force stems from an executive order, and its conclusions affect only the material supplied by the federal government, while the policing recommendations are merely a blueprint for what Mr. Obama would like to see happen in jurisdictions throughout the country. Mr. Obama on Monday will announce $163 million in grants to encourage police departments to adopt the suggestions. The administration also will launch a “tool kit” for the use of body-worn cameras; the Justice Department created a grant program for law enforcement agencies to purchase them. Ms. Muñoz said the task force’s report was “not just a blueprint for us and for local law enforcement agencies, but also for community leaders and others and stakeholders,” giving them “some very specific things to be asking for and, frankly, insisting on in order to improve policing practices.” That is why Mr. Obama made plans to visit Camden, where he wants to highlight a policing model that emphasizes a collaborative approach. Camden is also one of 20 cities participating in a new White House initiative to enhance the use of police data, by releasing detailed information on such things as traffic stops, officer-involved shootings and the use of force.
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#1. To: CZ82, TooConservative (#0)
I have no basis in statistics but it seems to me that after the police switched over from revolvers to semi-automatic pistols the number of killings went up. I think we see a lot of cases where cops just offload their entire clip at a person because I assume in the heat of battle the trigger is itchy. But with the revolver it takes time and thought to shoot off a second round.
You don't think it has anything to do with increased poverty, welfare, dysfunctional behaviors, addictions, increased amounts of Nonmedicated psychotic people that aren't being institutionalized and increased firepower of criminals? Only a libtard blames the gun and how many rounds the magazine holds. I might have to start calling you Andrew Cuomo.
Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy
Where's the headline? "Federal Government Disarms Local Police to Facilitate Takeover"
It sure does require some thought. However, a revolver in a shoot out with cartel gang members with semi and automatic weapons is one sided. That is why many police departments many moons ago went to the .45, 9mm and 10mm pistols. The key is training and discipline. For example in the military they go through scenarios where they drill escalation of force in a populated area. I know the local police dept and the Texas DPS do similar exercises and training.
“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.” (Matthew 11:28)
Crime is down - that is a verifiable statistic. I am talking more about how when cops shoot these days it seems they shoot their entire magazine in seconds into the 'suspect'. Maybe the old revolver the cops had limited itch trigger fingers. I recall in the 80s cops claiming they were 'outgunned' in the streets and needed to up their fire power - could have been a smart campaign from handgun manufacturers for all we know.
Outside of the LA bank robbery from the 90s we have yet to see these Hollywoodesque shootouts. There was this really great movie staring the dad from Growing Pains (Gross was his last name) and the Starsky And Hutch acter (Soul?) who played bank robbers that FBI were targeting and that ended in a shoot out scene - real great TV movie. But those cases are few and far between. In any case, if we have Cartel action - that is the purpose of SWAT and not beat patrol flat foots to take on.
The NEw York CIty police are some of the best the USA has - well funded and trained - and I keep reading reports of cops letting off full clips - barely hitting the suspect. There were a couple of justified shootings in Manhattan last year in the middle of the day and the cops let off a lot of bullets to kill one man each time.
You need to familiarize yourself with "Rules of a Gunfight":
It's a slanted statistic just like your unemployment stats... and you and a few of the AGENDA posters are too libtard to realize it. The funny shit is, you normally don't believe a damn thing big brother reports to you... unless it helps your libtard ideals. I policed for the last 20 years. Everything has increased, calls, domestics, crimes, tickets... AND PLEA BARGINS Use some common sense... look around. Read your local police blog... does it seem like crime in general has decreased? lol
Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy
The old 'flat foot' needs to be prepared. Needs to be able to protect himself and those citizens around him until the SWAT shows up. Again, it is not the type of weapon that is causing these problems. It is discipline and training. Outside of the LA bank robbery from the 90s we have yet to see these Hollywoodesque shootouts. Cartel shootout with police in Houston Mexican Cartels Publicly Threaten To Kill American Cops In El Paso Just to name a few. Maybe some folks who live closer to the US-Mexico border can elaborate on their local news.
“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.” (Matthew 11:28)
Again training and discipline are key to this. If you look at incidents where there is only one police officer on site (no partner or immediate back up) you will probably see more rounds fired.
“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.” (Matthew 11:28)
It's a slanted statistic just like your unemployment stats... and you and a few of the AGENDA posters are too libtard to realize it. Yeah - those libtards at the FBI with their cop-hating agenda!!! Violent crime drops, reaches 1970s level Oh wait - that's just more yellow journalism from the libtard anarchists at the Chicago Tribune. There have been several high profile cases where unarmed men were shot at dozens of time by multiple cops at the same time - like one cop panics and fires and all cops join in the shooting and keep shooting till the mag is dry. The NYC Police do a lot of training and if they can't get it right what are the chances some other less professional police force does?
Only here on LF you mean.
“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.” (Matthew 11:28)
He's already armed them. He can stop now.
The bigger the department, the more problems per officer. Not the other way around. Use some common sense.
Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy
A cop with better gun training and constant practice will do better and end up firing fewer shots. To me, this is a secondary consideration. It's hard to say that firing a full clip is wrong if it was correct to fire even one shot to begin with. Admittedly, we don't like to see cops completely unload on someone. It is disturbing. But if even one bullet is justified, so are fifteen rounds.
That is actually not true. Cops are not combat soldiers and even when confronting an armed person they are constrained by the law. Do they get away with? All the time.
You dodged my point. Let's say you are in charge. A policeman has to fire his gun and is justified in doing so under the law and under his PD training and policy. So is he allowed to fire one shot? 3? 5? 10? 15? Give me a number. Let's apply this to the cops in Waco shooting it out with the bikers. We'll assume the police had adequate cause to use deadly force to stop the bikers and take them into custody. Biker scum are shooting at the cops and each other in a public mall and restaurant with innocent civilians in the area. Cops show up in seconds. Do they get to fire one shot? 5? 10? 15? [The answer is as many as it takes. And better trained cops require fewer shots.]
You continue to spew ignorance. "Cops" are constrained by the same laws as YOU when it comes to SELF DEFENSE. I can assure you, almost every use of DPF by an officer is self defense of himself or a third party. Show me one time were a civilian was charged (or found to be wrong) for shooting too many bullets while being justified to shoot in the first place. I've said it one million times, and I'll say it one more time for the liberally ignorant. OFFICERS ARE TRAINED TO SHOOT UNTIL THE THREAT IS ENDED. No set amount of rounds... what the person doing the shooting feels is enough and he/she is no longer in danger. Not what YOU feel was enough... but the person that is exercising his/her self defense rights. Ignorant, libtard, bleeding heart opinions, from the safety of their computer DONT COUNT.
Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy
It's probably impossible to talk any sense into him or her... it's too bleeding heart to understand why some criminals have to be punished, die or anything sad. Soon, I'll put Piricles on the "do not respond to their ignorance list"... like Bucky, Deckard and tpaine.
Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy
It's easy to forget that non-gunowners never really grasp with what must be done in a gunfight. It is combat. Maybe you just haven't had the non-gun perspective in decades, like since you were 6 or 8. Other people aren't like that. Gun families are different this way from non-gun families. When you realize what it takes to use a gun in self-defense, it changes your opinions in major ways. I don't like the thought of it but if police are justified to use one bullet, they're justified to empty a machine gun into the suspect if necessary. But I really don't want to see police go in that direction. The magic number of bullets police are allowed to use to defend the public (including themselves) is whatever it takes to stop the threat. And no more. Typically, this will be 3-6 shots in a well-placed center torso grouping if the officer is well-trained with his weapon. More shots will be needed if in a fluid combat situation or against multiple aggressors.
Tho I agree in concept, I might disagree in reality. Anyone that's ever hunted will tell you that, most often, when you put the first shot in a deer... it runs, thrashes and acts violent for quite some time until it finally is obvious its dead. Humans, when shot, do the same thing. Only on TV do humans die instantly from gunfire. In a self defense situation, I recommend you shoot until Ray Charles would know that the threat IS DEAD.... and to be quite honest, I don't G. A. S. if it doesn't look good or if it make a liberal like Piricles sad.
Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy
So is he allowed to fire one shot? 3? 5? 10? 15? Give me a number. The shooting of Amadou Diallo occurred on February 4, 1999, when Amadou Diallo, a 22-year-old immigrant from Guinea, was shot and killed by four New York City Police Department plain-clothed officers: Sean Carroll, Richard Murphy, Edward McMellon and Kenneth Boss. The officers fired a combined total of 41 shots, 19 of which struck Diallo, outside his apartment at 1157 Wheeler Avenue in the Soundview section of The Bronx. The four were part of the now-defunct Street Crimes Unit. All four officers were charged with second-degree murder and acquitted at trial in Albany, New York. So, this incident shows cops panic - Diallo was unarmed - and was reaching for his wallet - 4 cops fired 41 bullets in rapid succession. And managed only 19 hits. And this was an elite unit. So maybe these rapid fire guns allow for spray and pray type shooting till the clip is expended? Taking into account years of service and as much practice as a human can do with a handgun is 46% on target rate the best they can do? What if there were civilians on the other side of the victim? I am arguing not that the cops are at fault per say but maybe the nature of the firearm makes shooting easier - especially rapid fire reaction (unthining) shooting.
As a practical matter, it's hard to shoot your entire 15-round Glock mag in one series of shots; the need for that is pretty uncommon. You most likely fire one or two groups of three shots at center torso. If your arm is good, this will stop perps in most situations or you'll need to improve your combat position. Firing one or two 3-round groups will also leave you with 9-12 more rounds in your 15-round mag, enough to fire another grouping at your target (if you didn't disable him yet) and still have enough bullets to take on a second assailant without fumbling for another magazine. Running out of bullets in combat is a Really Bad Thing. Civvies think more about this situation as we are limited to the 10-round magazines and you cops get 15 but this is why you get those extra rounds. This is the kind of thing that non-gun people never ever consider, that you really only have one clip you can use fast against one or more assailants, often in difficult shooting conditions. Being a gun guy, you start to think this through and act to improve your chances of survival and taking out your target. The non-gun people simply never think it through or rely on movie imagery to form ideas about handgun combat.
Cops seem to shoot in a pray and spray manner. http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/25/justice/new-york-empire-state-shooting/ Police: All Empire State shooting victims were wounded by officers On a busy Friday morning in Manhattan, nine pedestrians suffered bullet or fragment wounds after police unleashed a hail of gunfire at a man wielding a .45 caliber pistol who had just killed a former co-worker. The officers unloaded 16 rounds in the shadow of the Empire State Building at a disgruntled former apparel designer, killing him after he engaged in a gunbattle with police, authorities said. Three passersby sustained direct gunshot wounds, while the remaining six were hit by fragments, according to New York Police Commissioner Ray Kelly. All injuries were caused by police, he said Saturday. One officer shot nine rounds and another shot seven. Police identified the gunman as Jeffrey Johnson, 58, who was apparently laid off from his job as a designer of women's accessories at Hazan Import Co. last year. Ever see those pictures of Liberian kids shooting their AKs in a chaotic manner as they are running and doding? That is how I imagine these cops were shooting.
Trial in Albany is a get-out-of-jail-free card for cops. Miserable accuracy. They should be fired for such incompetence alone. There weren't civvies in danger. It's still a pathetic performance. I think you make a mistake to take a single egregious case that few people will defend as good policing and then try to generalize that pattern to all the police in America. So often that is the subtext of discussing an infamous case like Diallo. Quality of police vary considerably by PD and are related to the quality of recruits, strength of leadership, and intensity of training and discipline.
Even so, not every PD is so careless. This does highlight the increasing militarization of police and routinely arming with extremely deadly weapons. Obviously, there was something seriously wrong with the training and weapons control of the police involved. Also keep in mind that the apparel designer might have started shooting a bunch of civvies himself if the cops didn't go after him full-bore. We also have to keep in mind that no police can ever be perfect all the time. Unless you just want to abolish policing, you will have a few of these incidents. The problem arises when it starts to seem like standard operating procedure among so many militarized PDs. You'll notice no one complaining that the PD in Waco was using excessive force against those bikers. But Texas cops are better than NYC cops. And Texas is a state with a vast number of serious firearms, tons of CCW holders, etc. By comparison, the NYPD look like a bunch of incompetent scared pussies that shit their pants and shoot up the neighborhood over any street combat. Compare the Texas deputy who stopped the Islamist attack on the Pam Geller event. There was one cool customer. He knew the angles, took bold action, his weapons training and situational awareness carried him through. And he didn't have to shoot up the entire neighborhood either.
All human beings panic... even "elite" forces in police or military. They were cleared by a jury of their peers.
Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy
If only the "average" cop was like this... but they aren't and neither is the civilian population as average as those officers. We can dream... but when you wake up, we are still humans... and usually perform below the standards that most people have that are so opinionated and critical to post on a site like these.
Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy
You guys are msiunderstanding - I am not being a mindless anti-police guy here - I am saying maybe it is the automatic handgun being used that is a big part of the problem? Does automatic - 9 to 15 round guns make shooting easier or a go to first option for a cop? Would a revolver force a cop to think before he shoots - even if a nano-second? - it would sure force him to think on his second shot, etc. Sometimes it's the tools fault and not the operator. I don't want cops spraying lead like Robocop....
You would think Gatlin could comment on the border happenings considering where he lives, but don't remember him ever posting about that.
“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”
In some cases, it will cause them to be out gunned and die.
Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy
Heck why limit yourself to 15 rounds why not go for the gusto. “Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”
As above, as many shots as it takes, no more. If one shot is justified to stop a perp, any number of shots are justified. But a good cop with the right training and mental preparedness needs far fewer shots. For instance, I think there's a very good chance that GrandIsland in that same situation could alone take out a renegade 56yo women's accessory designer and have enough bullets left to deal with his accomplices, a raging 55yo interior designer with a .38 and a really peeved 60yo milliner with a Glock and some wicked hatpins. : ) My point being: it's mostly the shooter, not the gun that he uses. Almost without exception. You can't overemphasize hardnosed mental preparedness and regular firearms practice. Or:
I'd love one but I don't think those are legal for civvies in America. I'd like to have a 30-round magazine and a shear kit too but those are also illegal. Besides, what kind of holster could you use?
How can you know? You can't.
You wouldn't use a holster I would imagine you would have to use a shoulder strap like the Italian Carabinieri do with their Uzis. “Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”
Why limit yourself to semi-auto?
California, Connecticut, Maryland, Massachusetts, New York, New Jersey, Hawaii, Puerto Rico & Washington D.C. Note: The following US Cities restrict high capacity magazines: City of Denver, CO, Aurora, IL, Chicago, IL, Franklin Park, IL, Oak Park, IL, Riverdale, IL http://www.betaco.com/cmag_product_details.asp?product=25&weapon=46 http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/Glock-100-Round-9mm-Drum-Magazine-p2622.htm http://www.betaco.com/cmag_product_details.asp?product=25&weapon=46 http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/MAG-2420 Those links are for 33, 50 and 100 round Glock mags..
“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”
Very stylish, as you would expect for Italians. But those are national military police. We don't have those here. Even so, I would consider their outfitting preferable to American SWAT units with the black uniforms and face masks. I like police to wear actual uniforms. And no face masks.
I see HKParts has a 30-round mag for my .40 Glock 23. $30. Nice. I'm not sure it is legal in my state. I know they have liberalized many of these magazine restrictions over the last 10 years so I should look into it. I tend to think that it is unlikely I'll ever have need (or chance) to shoot more than 10 rounds. I think it is important to make those 10 rounds count. Again, a 30-round mag is fine but your gun no longer looks like a handgun and holstering is kinda impossible. A gun whose weight changes that much over the course of firing the entire magazine is somewhat problematic. You might become a worse shot by practicing with one. I'd fare better with a 13-round genuine Glock magazine for $21 from CheaperThanDirt. Holsterable and with a relatively consistent weight.
If I had a mag like that I would only have it for use inside the house and for playing at the range.
“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”
Just call them and find out, I imagine they have a toll free number.
“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”
I really try not to shoot inside a house. At most, a rabbit or possum with a .22 from an open window but then you have the uncouth smell of gunpowder inside your house. So it would just be a range toy. I'd do better with a more realistic magazine since I shoot alone.
As long as someone doesn't kick in my door in the middle of the night then neither will I.. My Father in law used to keep a .16 gauge in the upstairs bathroom for shooting groundhogs out in the garden. :)
“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”
I know guys like that. I try not to be one of those guys. : )
Whats wrong with the smell of gunpowder in the house? Be better than air fresheners. Some guys like to use Hoppes No 9 as cologne, LOL
Si vis pacem, para bellum
What wuz I thinking? : )
#2. To: Pericles (#1)
I have no basis in statistics but it seems to me that after the police switched over from revolvers to semi-automatic pistols the number of killings went up.
#3. To: CZ82 (#0)
#4. To: Pericles, CZ82 (#1)
But with the revolver it takes time and thought to shoot off a second round.
#5. To: GrandIsland (#2)
You don't think it has anything to do with increased poverty, welfare, dysfunctional behaviors, addictions, increased amounts of Nonmedicated psychotic people that aren't being institutionalized and increased firepower of criminals?
#6. To: redleghunter (#4)
It sure does require some thought. However, a revolver in a shoot out with cartel gang members with semi and automatic weapons is one sided.
#7. To: redleghunter (#4)
The key is training and discipline. For example in the military they go through scenarios where they drill escalation of force in a populated area. I know the local police dept and the Texas DPS do similar exercises and training.
#8. To: Pericles (#5)
"I am talking more about how when cops shoot these days it seems they shoot their entire magazine in seconds into the 'suspect'."
#9. To: Pericles (#5)
(Edited)
Crime is down - that is a verifiable statistic.
#10. To: Pericles, CZ82, misterwhite (#6)
In any case, if we have Cartel action - that is the purpose of SWAT and not beat patrol flat foots to take on.
#11. To: Pericles (#7)
The NEw York CIty police are some of the best the USA has - well funded and trained - and I keep reading reports of cops letting off full clips - barely hitting the suspect. There were a couple of justified shootings in Manhattan last year in the middle of the day and the cops let off a lot of bullets to kill one man each time.
#12. To: GrandIsland, Pericles (#9)
Crime is down - that is a verifiable statistic.
“Truth is treason in the empire of lies.” - Ron Paul
Americans who have no experience with, or knowledge of, tyranny believe that only terrorists will experience the unchecked power of the state. They will believe this until it happens to them, or their children, or their friends.
Paul Craig Roberts
#13. To: redleghunter, GrandIsland (#11)
Again training and discipline are key to this. If you look at incidents where there is only one police officer on site (no partner or immediate back up) you will probably see more rounds fired.
#14. To: Pericles (#13)
There have been several high profile cases where unarmed men were shot at dozens of time by multiple cops at the same time
#15. To: CZ82 (#0)
Obama to Limit Military-Style Equipment for Police Forces
#16. To: Pericles (#13)
The NYC Police do a lot of training and if they can't get it right what are the chances some other less professional police force does?
#17. To: redleghunter, GrandIsland (#11)
(Edited)
Again training and discipline are key to this. If you look at incidents where there is only one police officer on site (no partner or immediate back up) you will probably see more rounds fired.
#18. To: TooConservative, redleghunter, GrandIsland (#17)
Admittedly, we don't like to see cops completely unload on someone. It is disturbing. But if even one bullet is justified, so are fifteen rounds.
#19. To: Pericles, GrandIsland (#18)
#20. To: Pericles (#18)
(Edited)
That is actually not true. Cops are not combat soldiers and even when confronting an armed person they are constrained by the law. Do they get away with? All the time.
#21. To: TooConservative (#19)
(Edited)
#22. To: GrandIsland, Pericles (#21)
It's probably impossible to talk any sense into him or her... it's too bleeding heart to understand why some criminals have to be punished, die or anything sad.
#23. To: TooConservative (#22)
The magic number of bullets police are allowed to use to defend the public (including themselves) is whatever it takes to stop the threat. And no more. Typically, this will be 3-6 shots in a well-placed center torso grouping if the officer is well-trained with his weapon. More shots will be needed if in a fluid combat situation or against multiple aggressors.
#24. To: TooConservative, GrandIsland (#19)
(Edited)
Let's say you are in charge. A policeman has to fire his gun and is justified in doing so under the law and under his PD training and policy.
#25. To: GrandIsland (#23)
(Edited)
In a self defense situation, I recommend you shoot until Ray Charles would know that the threat IS DEAD...
#26. To: GrandIsland, TooConservative (#20)
(Edited)
I've said it one million times, and I'll say it one more time for the liberally ignorant. OFFICERS ARE TRAINED TO SHOOT UNTIL THE THREAT IS ENDED.
#27. To: Pericles (#24)
All four officers were charged with second-degree murder and acquitted at trial in Albany, New York.
So, this incident shows cops panic - Diallo was unarmed - and was reaching for his wallet - 4 cops fired 41 bullets in rapid succession. And managed only 19 hits. And this was an elite unit.
So maybe these rapid fire guns allow for spray and pray type shooting till the clip is expended? Taking into account years of service and as much practice as a human can do with a handgun is 46% on target rate the best they can do? What if there were civilians on the other side of the victim?
#28. To: Pericles, GrandIsland (#26)
The officers unloaded 16 rounds in the shadow of the Empire State Building at a disgruntled former apparel designer, killing him after he engaged in a gunbattle with police, authorities said.
#29. To: Pericles (#24)
So, this incident shows cops panic - Diallo was unarmed - and was reaching for his wallet - 4 cops fired 41 bullets in rapid succession. And managed only 19 hits. And this was an elite unit.
#30. To: TooConservative (#28)
Compare the Texas deputy who stopped the Islamist attack on the Pam Geller event. There was one cool customer. He knew the angles, took bold action, his weapons training and situational awareness carried him through. And he didn't have to shoot up the entire neighborhood either.
#31. To: TooConservative, GrandIsland (#28)
We also have to keep in mind that no police can ever be perfect all the time. Unless you just want to abolish policing, you will have a few of these incidents. The problem arises when it starts to seem like standard operating procedure among so many militarized PDs.
#32. To: redleghunter (#10)
Just to name a few. Maybe some folks who live closer to the US-Mexico border can elaborate on their local news.
#33. To: Pericles (#31)
Would a revolver force a cop to think before he shoots - even if a nano-second? - it would sure force him to think on his second shot, etc.
#34. To: TooConservative (#25)
it's hard to shoot your entire 15-round Glock mag in one series of shots
#35. To: Pericles, GrandIsland, Gatlin (#31)
You guys are msiunderstanding - I am not being a mindless anti-police guy here - I am saying maybe it is the automatic handgun being used that is a big part of the problem?
Average Texan: "It's a gun. So what?"
These lead to very different outcomes in gun combat.
Average NYCer: "Eeeeek, IT'S A GUN!"
#36. To: CZ82 (#34)
Heck why limit yourself to 15 rounds why not go for the gusto.
#37. To: GrandIsland (#33)
In some cases, it will cause them to be out gunned and die.
#38. To: TooConservative (#36)
#39. To: CZ82 (#34)
"Heck why limit yourself to 15 rounds why not go for the gusto."
#40. To: TooConservative (#36)
Note: The following US States restrict high capacity magazines:
#41. To: CZ82 (#38)
You wouldn't use a holster I would imagine you would have to use a shoulder strap like the Italian Carabinieri do with their Uzis.
#42. To: CZ82 (#40)
(Edited)
Those links are for 33, 50 and 100 round Glock mags..
#43. To: TooConservative (#42)
Again, a 30-round mag is fine but your gun no longer looks like a handgun and holstering is kinda impossible.
#44. To: TooConservative (#42)
I'm not sure it is legal in my state.
#45. To: CZ82 (#43)
(Edited)
If I had a mag like that I would only have it for use inside the house and for playing at the range.
#46. To: TooConservative (#45)
I really try not to shoot inside a house.
#47. To: CZ82 (#46)
My Father in law used to keep a .16 gauge in the upstairs bathroom for shooting groundhogs out in the garden. :)
#48. To: TooConservative (#45)
" you have the uncouth smell of gunpowder inside your house. "
#49. To: Stoner (#48)
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