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U.S. Constitution
See other U.S. Constitution Articles

Title: The Madisonian Dilemma
Source: Cambridge University Press
URL Source: [None]
Published: May 6, 2015
Author: Dennis Goldford
Post Date: 2015-05-06 20:00:58 by tpaine
Keywords: None
Views: 3167
Comments: 24

The Madisonian Dilemma

Cambridge University Press ^ |

Dennis Goldford

Jefferson commented that the purpose of a constitution is to bind down those whom we are obliged to trust with power, doing so by the chains of the Constitution.

While the binding capacity of the Constitution comes into play in the area of structural principles such as federalism and the separation of powers, perhaps the prime example of that capacity is its role in the problematic relation between majority rule and individual rights. As fundamental law, the Constitution, supposedly above politics, is always drawn into political controversies between majority rule and individual rights precisely because of its binding function. Through this function the Constitution establishes the distinction, central to American political culture, between the sphere of matters subject to decision by majority rule, regardless of individual preferences to the contrary, and the sphere of matters subject to individual choice, regardless of majority preferences to the contrary.

The Constitution binds contemporary majorities to respect this distinction and thereby not to act in certain ways, however democratically decided, vis-à-vis individuals.

Robert Bork aptly distinguishes between these spheres in terms of what he has famously called the Madisonian dilemma:

The United States was founded as a Madisonian system, which means that it contains two opposing principles that must be continually reconciled.

The first principle is self-government, which means that in wide areas of life majorities are entitled to rule, if they wish, simply because they are majorities.

The second is that there are nonetheless some things majorities must not do to minorities, some areas of life in which the individual must be free of majority rule.

The dilemma is that neither majorities nor minorities can be trusted to define the proper spheres of democratic authority and individual liberty....

The political theory of American constitutionalism rests equally on two fundamental premises, the premises of constraint and consent.

The first premise is that the purpose of a constitution, especially a written one, is to bind future generations to the vision of its founders, that is, to constrain the American people, - individuals and institutions, citizens and government officials alike, - to follow the principles of the Constitution rather than anything else.

The second premise is that the binding of future generations to the vision of the founders is a democratically grounded and legitimated act of We the People, that is, that in some sense We the People have consented to be governed - bound - by the principles set forth in the Constitution.


Poster Comment:

"-- there are nonetheless some things majorities must not do to minorities, some areas of life in which the individual must be free of majority rule. --"

I see these areas as enumerated in the Bill of Rights and the 14th Amendment. -- Many here do not. Feel free to tell me why not.

Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread  


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#1. To: tpaine, All (#0)

I see these areas as enumerated in the Bill of Rights and the 14th Amendment. -- Many here do not. Feel free to tell me why not.

Very simple, the Consitution is subject to much interpretaion. Futher, the Consitution has contuinually been violated since the days of Washington.

Now please tell me how a 5-4 decision by SCOTUS resolves for all time the question ruled upon? How did Presidents, Congress and/or SCOTUS get away with bending, if not breaking, the Consitution virtually from its beginnings? What is to be done about it when the majority of We The People and Congress accepts the transgressions and SCOTUS refuses to enter the fray? Do we not reap what we sow?

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2015-05-06   22:29:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: tpaine (#0) (Edited)

The political theory of American constitutionalism rests equally on two fundamental premises, the premises of constraint and consent.

Once a political theory, STILL a political theory...

An activist SCOTUS has demonstrated little "constraint" as the majority all too often deems the Constitution "a living breathing document," heavily influenced by polls, a leftist agenda, and even foreign court opinion.

As to "consent," We The People as represented by Congress are often either ignored or have our consent AND authority usurped by an over-officious, activist-partisan judiciary.

Liberator  posted on  2015-05-07   2:08:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: SOSO (#1)

I see these areas, "areas of life in which the individual must be free of majority rule", --- as those enumerated in the Bill of Rights and the 14th Amendment. -

--- Many here do not. Feel free to tell me why not.

Very simple, the Consitution is subject to much interpretaion.

"Interpret" as much as you like, but we must draw the line at prohibitions on weapons, 'sinful' behaviors and substances, --- passed by would be majority rulers.

Futher, the Consitution has contuinually been violated since the days of Washington.

And usually, those violations are corrected, over time. -- As per the repeal of booze prohibition.

Now please tell me how a 5-4 decision by SCOTUS resolves for all time the question ruled upon?

Such 'decisions' don't resolve anything, because they are opinions, subject to change. - Example: Dred Scott.

How did Presidents, Congress and/or SCOTUS get away with bending, if not breaking, the Consitution virtually from its beginnings?
You voiced this opinion before, and I don't think they did. Our constitution is not broken.
What is to be done about it when the majority of We The People and Congress accepts the transgressions and SCOTUS refuses to enter the fray? Do we not reap what we sow?
What transgressions are you talking about ?

tpaine  posted on  2015-05-07   20:09:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: Liberator (#2)

The political theory of American constitutionalism rests equally on two fundamental premises, the premises of constraint and consent.

The first premise is that the purpose of a constitution, especially a written one, is to bind future generations to the vision of its founders, that is, to constrain the American people, - individuals and institutions, citizens and government officials alike, - to follow the principles of the Constitution rather than anything else.

The second premise is that the binding of future generations to the vision of the founders is a democratically grounded and legitimated act of We the People, that is, that in some sense We the People have consented to be governed - bound - by the principles set forth in the Constitution.

The above is the author's theory of constitutional fundamentals..

Once a political theory, STILL a political theory...

A political theory you oppose?

An activist SCOTUS has demonstrated little "constraint" as the majority all too often deems the Constitution "a living breathing document," heavily influenced by polls, a leftist agenda, and even foreign court opinion.

We have to realise that SCOTUS opinions are just that. They are only binding on the case at hand. --- We the people, and the States we control, can ignore them..

As to "consent," We The People as represented by Congress are often either ignored or have our consent AND authority usurped by an over-officious, activist- partisan judiciary.

We the people, and the States we control, can ignore congress too, -- just as we did with booze prohibition, and as we're doing now with pot and gun prohibitions.

tpaine  posted on  2015-05-07   20:26:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: tpaine (#3)

What is to be done about it when the majority of We The People and Congress accepts the transgressions and SCOTUS refuses to enter the fray? Do we not reap what we sow?

What transgressions are you talking about ?

Good Lord, are you serious? If so this dialogue is over.

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2015-05-07   20:54:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: SOSO (#5)

What is to be done about it when the majority of We The People and Congress accepts the transgressions and SCOTUS refuses to enter the fray? Do we not reap what we sow?

What transgressions are you talking about ?

Good Lord, are you serious? If so this dialogue is over.

Good Lord are you this dense? - I'm not denying that there are transgressions, -- What SPECIFIC transgressions are you talking about?

tpaine  posted on  2015-05-07   21:07:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: tpaine (#6)

What SPECIFIC transgressions are you talking about?

What difference does it make? Pick anyone you like. Just don't pick Prohibition because that was totally Consitutional via an Amendment (the 18th) to the Consitution - just as was its repeal by an Amendment (the 21st).

Or are you going to arguing that it wasn't?

"In the years during which 18th Amendment was in effect, there were no significant constitutional challenges to the prohibition of alcohol itself. But there were some challenges to the procedure used to ratify the amendment.

For example, in Hawke v. Smith (1920), those arguing in favor of prohibition asserted that an Ohio referendum was invalid. In Ohio, the state legislature had approved the 18th Amendment. But a subsequent direct referendum of the voters rejected it.

In the Ohio constitution, the people were given the power to review their legislature’s passage of any amendment to the national Constitutional. The prohibitionists argued – and the Supreme Court agreed – that the process by which amendments are to be ratified only involves state legislatures, not referendums. The Constitution itself made no mention of a review by the people. Thus, Ohio’s referendum was immaterial. The legislature had ratified the amendment and that was all that mattered."

In any event, Prohibition was the law of the land for quite a while, ergo de facto consitutional, until it was repealed.

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2015-05-07   21:23:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: SOSO, y'all (#7) (Edited)

What is to be done about it when the majority of We The People and Congress accepts the transgressions and SCOTUS refuses to enter the fray?

What SPECIFIC transgressions are you talking about?

What difference does it make? Pick anyone you like. Just don't pick Prohibition because that was totally Consitutional via an Amendment (the 18th) to the Consitution ---

Strange you should mention booze prohibition, because the majority of We The People and Congress accepted the unconstitutional 'transgression' of prohibiting booze and then SCOTUS declined to enter the fray by refusing to consider this constitutional question: ---

Where in the constitution is ANY level of govt given the power to prohibit 'sinful'/dangerous substances or devices like guns? -- And if an amendment is passed that infringes on our fundamental rights to possess such 'dangerous' items, -- how could it be valid?

And we the people did the obvious, we ignored an unconstitutional amendment, resulting in its repeal...

tpaine  posted on  2015-05-07   22:27:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: tpaine (#8)

Strange you should mention booze prohibition, because the majority of We The People and Congress accepted the unconstitutional 'transgression' of prohibiting booze and then SCOTUS declined to enter the fray by refusing to consider this constitutional question: ---

You know that you are wrong about this, don't you? SCOTUS did enter the fray (and I gave you a link to the case).

"Where in the constitution is ANY level of govt given the power to prohibit 'sinful'/dangerous substances or devices like guns? -- And if an amendment is passed that infringes on our fundamental rights to possess such 'dangerous' items, -- how could it be valid?"

So it is your contention that the Consitution allows you to maintain your own nuclear arsenal on your private property? Or to experiment with biological and/or chemical weapons in your basement? If you don't believe that these are your consitutional rights then you show me where in the Consitution prohibits you from engaging in those activities.

OTOH, if you do believe that you have the consitutional right to maintain your own personal nuclear arsenal and/or biological and chemcal warfare labs on your premises then this dialogue is over.

But to begin to answer your questions lets start with the first words of the Consitution:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

What do you think these words mean? Who gets to determine what promotes or undermines the "general Welfare"?

BTW, the 18th Amendment did not prohibit the consumption of intoxicating liquors.

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2015-05-07   22:46:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: SOSO (#9)

Strange you should mention booze prohibition, because the majority of We The People and Congress accepted the unconstitutional 'transgression' of prohibiting booze and then SCOTUS declined to enter the fray by refusing to consider this constitutional question: ---

You know that you are wrong about this, don't you?

No.

SCOTUS did enter the fray (and I gave you a link to the case).

I know, -- the SCOTUS also heard several days of arguments on a constitutional challenge to the amendment, and declined to accept the case...

Where in the constitution is ANY level of govt given the power to prohibit 'sinful'/dangerous substances or devices like guns? -- And if an amendment is passed that infringes on our fundamental rights to possess such 'dangerous' items, -- how could it be valid?

So it is your contention that the Consitution allows you to maintain your own nuclear arsenal on your private property? Or to experiment with biological and/or chemical weapons in your basement? If you don't believe that these are your consitutional rights then you show me where in the Consitution prohibits you from engaging in those activities. --- OTOH, if you do believe that you have the consitutional right to maintain your own personal nuclear arsenal and/or biological and chemcal warfare labs on your premises then this dialogue is over.

Nice straw man. You're free to quit this dialogue anytime of course, but you must admit that hundreds of company's experiment with biological, chemical, and nuclear materials every day in the USA.

But to begin to answer your questions lets start with the first words of the Consitution: --- We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. ---- What do you think these words mean? Who gets to determine what promotes or undermines the "general Welfare"?

We the people get to determine what those words mean, of course. And you think that congress or the courts do?

tpaine  posted on  2015-05-07   23:16:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: tpaine (#10)

Nice straw man. You're free to quit this dialogue anytime of course, but you must admit that hundreds of company's experiment with biological, chemical, and nuclear materials every day in the USA.

No straw man but a legitimate questions. I have had this discussion with COnsitutional lawyers who claim that it is everyone's consitutional right to maintain their personal nuclear arsenal and any and all biological and chemical weapons on their property. Nice attempt at dodging my question though. How about responding to it, if you have the courage and integrity?

BTW, you comment about companies experimenting with biological, chemical, and nuclear materials every day in the USA is about as bogus as your weasel away form answering the question. These companies do so with to consent and oversight of the government, otherwise they don't do it at all without being subject to the full weight of government action against them.

I doubt that you have the cojones to answer a very straight forward question.

"We the people get to determine what those words mean, of course."

Nice dancing, again. What are you doing now, the Weasel Hustle? Didn't you claim the we the people means the people of the individual states or the states themself? So exactly how do we the people determine what promotes or undermines the general Welfare? HINT: And you think that congress or the courts do not?

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2015-05-07   23:52:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: SOSO (#11)

No straw man but a legitimate questions. I have had this discussion with COnsitutional lawyers who claim that it is everyone's consitutional right to maintain their personal nuclear arsenal and any and all biological and chemical weapons on their property. Nice attempt at dodging my question though. How about responding to it, if you have the courage and integrity?

Here's a good answer to your straw man question, from freerepublic....

Why can't I own nuclear weapons? The Second Amendment guarantees it! [THREAD THREE] My work, and the work of Thornwell Simons ^ | 07/12/2001 | Lazamataz Posted on 4/18/2002, 8:59:28 AM by Lazamataz

Why can't I own nuclear weapons? The Second Amendment guarantees it!

This argument comes up from time to time during gun control arguments. An anti-gun person who intends to use it as a strawman argument usually offers it facetiously or sarcastically. A strawman is a logical fallacy in which a debater exaggerates an opponent's position, directs arguments at this exaggerated position, and claims to have defeated the opponent's real argument.

The Second Amendment guarantees individual citizens the right to keep and bear arms. Even professors who can only be described as extremely left-wing have come to this conclusion. For example, the prominent law professor Laurence Tribe, has reluctantly concluded that this Amendment explicitly upholds the right of citizens to keep and bear arms.1

The writings of our Founding Fathers reveal that there were two sociological reasons to uphold this natural right: To prevent crime, and to defend against a rogue domestic government. As example of the Founders thoughts on the crime- deterrent effect of civilian firearms possession, I give you Thomas Jefferson:

"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms ... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Can it be supposed that those who have the courage to violate the most sacred laws of humanity ... will respect the less important and arbitrary ones ... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants, they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." 2

And as an example of how the Founders felt about civilian firearms possession as regards keeping our government 'honest and upright', I give you, again, Thomas Jefferson, who warns:

And what country can preserve its liberties, if it's rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.3

And from John Adams:

To suppose arms in the hands of citizens, to be used at individual discretion, except in private self-defense, or by partial orders of towns, countries or districts of a state, is to demolish every constitution, and lay the laws prostrate, so that liberty can be enjoyed by no man; it is a dissolution of the government. The fundamental law of the militia is, that it be created, directed and commanded by the laws, and ever for the support of the laws. 4 Therefore, we can reasonably suppose that the Founders intended us to have access to every manner of weapon for defense of home and of liberty. However, therein lies the rub: Does every manner of weapon mean access to nuclear weapons, biological weapons, chemical weapons?

Our Founders were just men, men of proportion. They drew their ideas for our constitution from the writer and philosopher John Locke. Locke believed that the state of nature implied a law of nature, which is that "no one ought to harm another in his life, heath, liberty or possessions." Ergo, there were "natural rights" to life, liberty and property.5 Locke puts forth that we own our own bodies, and thusly we have the right to own and control ourselves.

THE RIGHT OF SELF DEFENSE

If you have the right to own, then you also have the right to assert ownership -- otherwise known as "protect" -- that which is yours. The right of self-defense flows naturally from this right, and is enshrined by our Founders as the Bill of Rights, and even is quite prevalent in the Declaration of Independence. If you have the right to self-defense, then it naturally follows you have the right to effective tools to exercise that right. In simple terms, it makes no sense to say you have the right to drive on highways, but then ban automobiles. Again, the learned Mr. Jefferson agrees:

"The right to use a thing comprehends a right to the means necessary to its use, and without which it would be useless." 6

THE RIGHT TO BE UNMOLESTED

Another right flows from John Lockes principles: You also have the right to be undisturbed. In his words, "....liberty is to be free from restraint and violence from others....". You have the right of 'quiet enjoyment' of your belongings, including your body, so long as you do not molest or act aggressively or violently to another. Nor, of course, do you have the right to disturb anothers quiet enjoyment of his or her belongings by molesting, acting aggressively, or acting violently to another person.

Take these two rights together: YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO SELF DEFENSE (and effective tools to defend yourself), and YOU MAY NOT MOLEST OR ATTACK THOSE WHO ARE NOT ATTACKING YOU FIRST.

Therefore, it is clear that any tool of self defense you choose must be a tool you can direct to be capable of discriminating between an attacker and an innocent. Clearly, the following tools are capable, with a minimum of care, of being directed against an attacker without jeopardizing innocents:

Knife

Club

Sword

Dirk

Mace

Pistol

Rifle

Shotgun

Cannon shooting ball shot

The following tools are slightly more questionable, since they are somewhat less able to be directed with great accuracy, and thusly are less discriminating. They have a larger chance of violating an innocent persons 'quiet enjoyment' of his property during the suppression of a criminal attack:

Machine gun

Machine pistol

Small explosive device

Satchel charge

Antitank rocket

The following tools are completely indiscriminate, and may harm innocent people decades after their use. These tools are completely inappropriate for your right of self defense, since they will certainly violate an innocent persons right of quiet enjoyment of their property.

Nuclear device

Large explosive device

Fuel-air explosive

Biological weapon

Land mine

Chemical weapon

Booby trap

Hopefully, this will lay to rest once and for all the straw man offered by so many antigunners. Nuclear weapons are not allowed to be used for self defense by private citizens because they are not sufficiently discriminating.

tpaine  posted on  2015-05-08   8:51:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: SOSO (#11)

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." ---- What do you think these words mean? Who gets to determine what promotes or undermines the "general Welfare"?

We the people get to determine what those words mean, of course. And you think that congress or the courts do?

Didn't you claim the we the people means the people of the individual states or the states themself? So exactly how do we the people determine what promotes or undermines the general Welfare?

The prime example is how we dealt with booze prohibition. We ignored it, as it did NOT promote the general welfare, and it was repealed.

HINT: And you think that congress or the courts do not?

Obviously, you do. Fess up, you're a big brother fellow traveler.

tpaine  posted on  2015-05-08   9:03:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: tpaine (#13)

HINT: And you think that congress or the courts do not? Obviously, you do. Fess up, you're a big brother fellow traveler.

Whether you like it or not you clearly do not understand the concept of representative government, the basic tenet and structure of the U.S. and the States. We The People first act through the ballot box. We The People do not have a direct say in all, and not in most, of the decisions made by the representative elected officials. The alternative to this is anarchy and revolution. Which are you, an anarchist or revolutionary?

If reresentative government is Big Brother then blame the FF becuase that is what they deliberately with forethought has given us. I am about as Big Brother as you are an Anarchist (oops, I better be careful here, you just may be an Anarchist).

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2015-05-08   10:33:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: SOSO (#14)

We the people get to determine what those words mean, of course. And you think that congress or the courts do?

Didn't you claim the we the people means the people of the individual states or the states themself? So exactly how do we the people determine what promotes or undermines the general Welfare?

The prime example is how we dealt with booze prohibition. We ignored it, as it did NOT promote the general welfare, and it was repealed.

Whether you like it or not you clearly do not understand the concept of representative government, the basic tenet and structure of the U.S. and the States.

That's your opinion, and its clearly wrong.

We The People first act through the ballot box. We The People do not have a direct say in all, and not in most, of the decisions made by the representative elected officials.

And when our elected officials pass unconstitutional laws or amendments, with Court backing, -- We the People have the duty to reject and ignore such infringements..

tpaine  posted on  2015-05-08   12:53:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: tpaine (#12)

Therefore, it is clear that any tool of self defense you choose must be a tool you can direct to be capable of discriminating between an attacker and an innocent. Clearly, the following tools are capable, with a minimum of care, of being directed against an attacker without jeopardizing innocents:

The following tools are slightly more questionable, since they are somewhat less able to be directed with great accuracy, and thusly are less discriminating. They have a larger chance of violating an innocent persons 'quiet enjoyment' of his property during the suppression of a criminal attack:

Machine gun

Machine pistol

Small explosive device

Satchel charge

Antitank rocket

Questionable? You mean the Constitution is not specific about these weapons? Mon Dieu, shocking!!!!!!! Who gets to decide?

But you raise an interesting questions in the context of this discussion (no red herrings please): Does the Consitution allow the Government to do (i.e. - use indiscriminate weapons, inclduing weapons of mass destruction, in self-defense of the government and /or country) what you claim the Consitution prohibits an individual from doing (i.e. - using indiscreminate weapons for self-defense of the individual, his family and/or his property)? If yes, please show me where this says so in the Constitution.

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2015-05-08   17:38:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: tpaine (#15)

The prime example is how we dealt with booze prohibition. We ignored it, as it did NOT promote the general welfare, and it was repealed.

Not universally. Many that ignored it were punished to the full extent of the law. I would concur that a law that isn't ebforce is de facto not a law. But there also are examples of unconsitutional laws that We The People fully supported and the victims of those laws were f*cked over big time.

There was a great line in one of the episodes of Law and Order a number of years ago which paraphased was "you only have those those rights which you can defend". In the real world there is much truth to that statement. Being on the right side of the Consitution does not assure that the Government or We The People will not trample your rights and/or your person.

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2015-05-08   17:44:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: SOSO (#16)

From the essay: ---

The following tools are slightly more questionable, since they are somewhat less able to be directed with great accuracy, and thusly are less discriminating. They have a larger chance of violating an innocent persons 'quiet enjoyment' of his property during the suppression of a criminal attack:

Machine gun

Machine pistol

Small explosive device

Satchel charge

Antitank rocket

soso -- Questionable? You mean the Constitution is not specific about these weapons? Mon Dieu, shocking!!!!!!! Who gets to decide?

We the people HAVE decided that the above tools/weapons are 'legal' to possess. -- However, we still argue with fellas like you who insist on prohibitive 'rules' about them, but eventually, reason will prevail.

But you raise an interesting questions in the context of this discussion (no red herrings please): Does the Consitution allow the Government to do (i.e. - use indiscriminate weapons, inclduing weapons of mass destruction, in self-defense of the government and /or country) --

You know the government does indeed claim that power, don't you?

-- what you claim the Consitution prohibits an individual from doing (i.e. - using indiscreminate weapons for self-defense of the individual, his family and/or his property)? If yes, please show me where this says so in the Constitution.

You've raised a red herring/straw man. --- It's obvious our constitution makes no such claim. Do you think it does?

tpaine  posted on  2015-05-08   18:08:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: tpaine (#18)

We the people HAVE decided that the above tools/weapons are 'legal' to possess. -- However, we still argue with fellas like you who insist on prohibitive 'rules' about them, but eventually, reason will prevail.

Excuse me but are yu lucid or on meds. Where did I even hint about my feelings about prohibitve 'rules'? How do you know what my position on gun control is? For all you know I am packing right now, and legally so.

"But you raise an interesting questions in the context of this discussion (no red herrings please): Does the Consitution allow the Government to do (i.e. - use indiscriminate weapons, inclduing weapons of mass destruction, in self-defense of the government and /or country) --

You know the government does indeed claim that power, don't you?"

Yes, by its actions Government not only makes that claim but acts on it. You claim to be the expert on the COnsitution. So please tell me where in the Consitutuion is that right conferred upon the Government (NB - second request)?

"If yes, please show me where this says so in the Constitution. --- It's obvious our constitution makes no such claim."

It also does not make such claim about what individuals may or may not utilize in their self-defense. I am glad to see that you acknowledge that the Consitution requires much interpretation, which may be right or wrong, may or may align with the opinion of We The People, may or may not have formal sanction of SCOTUS, may or may not be rectified in time. In summary, it is not the definitive document that you claim it to be, certainly not in practice. Keep coming to the light.

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2015-05-08   19:01:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: SOSO (#19)

We the people HAVE decided that the above tools/weapons are 'legal' to possess. -- However, we still argue with fellas like you who insist on prohibitive 'rules' about them, but eventually, reason will prevail.

Where did I even hint about my feelings about prohibitve 'rules'?

Just above, whenever you're arguing that the govt has the power to prohibit.

How do you know what my position on gun control is? For all you know I am packing right now, and legally so.

Diane Feinstein also 'packs legally', and we all know her position.

But you raise an interesting questions in the context of this discussion (no red herrings please): Does the Consitution allow the Government to do (i.e. - use indiscriminate weapons, inclduing weapons of mass destruction, in self-defense of the government and /or country) --

You know the government does indeed claim that power, don't you?"

Yes, by its actions Government not only makes that claim but acts on it. You claim to be the expert on the COnsitution. So please tell me where in the Consitutuion is that right conferred upon the Government

ARTICLE I, Section 8. -- You should try reading it.

(NB - second request)?
Both roscoe and robertpaulsen/misterwhite have used the 2nd request ploy - ad nauseam. Which one are you?

If yes, please show me where this says so in the Constitution. ---

It's obvious our constitution makes no such claim.

It also does not make such claim about what individuals may or may not utilize in their self-defense.

We agree for a change. Keep coming to the light.

I am glad to see that you acknowledge that the Consitution requires much interpretation, which may be right or wrong, may or may align with the opinion of We The People, may or may not have formal sanction of SCOTUS, may or may not be rectified in time. In summary, it is not the definitive document that you claim it to be, certainly not in practice. Keep coming to the light.

Whatever.

tpaine  posted on  2015-05-08   19:33:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: tpaine (#20)

Where did I even hint about my feelings about prohibitve 'rules'?

Just above, whenever you're arguing that the govt has the power to prohibit.

Please post my quote supporting gun control or where I say I am in favor any prohibition on guns. Please do not put words in my mouth.

It is you that argued that the government has the consitutional right to prohibit the types of weapons and/or means of self-defense an individual can legally possess, remember? I just happen to agree with you that the gobernment has that consitutional authority to do so.

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2015-05-08   19:47:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: SOSO (#21)

Where did I even hint about my feelings about prohibitve 'rules'?

Just above, whenever you're arguing that the govt has the power to prohibit.

Please post my quote supporting gun control or where I say I am in favor any prohibition on guns. Please do not put words in my mouth. ---

It is you that argued that the government has the consitutional right to prohibit the types of weapons and/or means of self-defense an individual can legally possess, remember?

Please post my quote where I claim "the government has the consitutional right to prohibit the types of weapons and/or means of self-defense an individual can legally possess". ---- Please do not put words in my mouth

I just happen to agree with you that the gobernment has that consitutional authority to do so.

Well, there you go, admitting that govt has the power to prohibit.

tpaine  posted on  2015-05-08   20:00:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: tpaine (#22)

I just happen to agree with you that the gobernment has that consitutional authority to do so.

Well, there you go, admitting that govt has the power to prohibit.

Are you lucid or on meds? Damn you really are all over the place. Adios.

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2015-05-08   20:26:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: SOSO (#23)

Typical roscoe type reply. Or is it 'Palmdale'? Mojave? SOSO?

(2nd request)

tpaine  posted on  2015-05-08   22:17:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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