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Title: Let me ask all of you some questions:
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www.ChristianPatriot.com
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Published: Apr 22, 2015
Author: Pastor Bob Celeste ACP
Post Date: 2015-04-22 14:58:34 by BobCeleste
Keywords: ACP
Views: 13445
Comments: 102
Let me ask all of you some questions: 1. Do you think today’s preachers are smarter, as smart or not as Scripturally smart as Preachers in the 1770's? 2. Do you think today’s politicians are smarter, as smart, or not as smart Constitutionally as politicians in the 1770's and the first days of our Republic? 3. If Revolution were legal, acceptable and encourage by both the politicians of the colonies and the preachers of the colonies in the 1770's, why is it unacceptable, and discouraged by both the preachers and the politicians today? 4. If Romans chapter 13 was not a problem to Christians revolting against the crown in the 1770's why is it today?
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#41. To: TooConservative (#40)
(Edited)
No, Too, the Bible was invoked. And when you invoke the Bible, you don't get to hide behind historicist and localist arguments about the petty motivations of locals. You stand before the Throne of God and are judged by his standards, which is perfection. If a man is not willing to insist upon God's standard of perfection, then when he quotes any line of the Bible to assert a partial agenda, he's not honest or truthful - he doesn't FEAR God enough to really be sincere about invoking him, he's just looking for some line from the book on which to hang an argument, in order to dupe the rubes. In the First Century Jesus gave a moral standard that had, as its effect, the eventual cessation of the cesspits of public torture and execution in the Roman Empire, and ultimately, the lack of slavery in medieval Europe, a tradition of serfdom, not slavery, in the Christian countries for a millennium, and a strong British tradition, among other places, of no slaves in England. The slave trade was not something happening in Europe in 1400. It was something that exploded on the scene with the discovery of the Americas and the want for labor to work this "brave new world", by monarchies who were already asserting their dominance over the Church. So, the notion that opposition to slavery was "anachronistic" in the 1770s is pure bullshit apologetics. It was illegal in England, and long had been, on Christian grounds. The people who opposed it, opposed it on Christian grounds. And the pure book, the Bible, on which the argument that wants to be born about why it's ok to kill people - the argument that I am smothering in its crib by denying the Founders any BIBLICAL legitimacy for their bloody revolution - has a letter regarding a slave that compels - on pain of the soul - the owner of a slave to remember that the slave is now his brother in Christ. Slavery is fundamental to the morality of the American Revolution. Just because the Americans were greedy and obtuse and chose to morally blind themselves to it does not mean that it isn't obvious, by the Biblical standard of perfection imposed by Jesus, that "all men are created equal, and endowed by their Creator..." includes slaves. Paul and Jesus spoke of slaves as men. And THEREFORE no Founder who would invoke the Bible for anything has any right, or any intellectual defense, in pretending otherwise. Jesus said to pay taxes. He said to submit to leaders and turn the other cheek. He said not to treasure money but God and called for brotherhood and love. And he and his father all the way back to Noah and Cain forbade killing. So, what excuse did the Founders have? They were not REALLY fighting for any CHRISTIAN equality of man: they didn't free the slaves. For what, then? To not pay taxes. That's not a legitimate reason to kill people, according to Jesus. What's left? We want to govern ourselves? God never ever said "Do not kill, unless you want to run the show, THEN you can commit as much killing as you need to." There was no justification for the American Revolution. It was mass killing for evil motives. The only thing that COULD have ended up justifying it WOULD have been the freeing of slaves and establishing brotherhood among Americans. But nothing like that was remotely on the minds of the Founders. There was nothing Christian about the American Revolution. It was murderous rebellion for illegitimate, un-Christian reasons. The Founders killed for reasons that cannot be justified by Scriptures. Romans 13 applied to them, they ignored it, and they won their little war and damned themselves to hell in the process.
I am using auto writer on cell phone - I stopped using computers a while ago. It has its downsides.
Vic, as a Catholic you know there is a justification for just wars. The American rebels rebelled in a legalistic manner after attempting diplomacy, organized an army to fight in the manner prescribed by civilized Christian nations of that era and conducted themselves as a nation state with an army in the field. That is different from say the rebels of Syria who were and are chaotic, have no organizational structure between one militia and the other and produce worse atrocities than the regime they seek to overthrow.
Oooh, but they see that VERY differently. The Orthodox are not in submission to Peter's Chair. No Pope makes you guys Protestant. Welcome home.
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3)
Also, the Arc had craven images of Angels. Also, you Protestants forget that Jesus came along and ended the Old Covenant. Do you circumcise your male children in a religious ceremony? Do you keep Kosher? I've heard some rationalizations before on omitting the 2nd Commandment, but the above tops them all. YHWH commanded HIS earthly Ark (abode) would have the same make up as His Heavenly abode. The 2nd command still applies and is not akin to eating shellfish. Did God command icons and statues to be commissioned in the Christian church? No. He said don't make them and DON'T bow down to them. It was the pagan Greek and Roman influence on apostate assemblies and the incorporation of the church into secular government which led to these pagan images and practices. No one can find any of your church decorations in the NT church. I don't remember an epistle from an apostle which said "you foolish Galatians, why do you soil the holy icons..."
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3)
They did appoint representatives to the Continental Congress. Those representatives brought forth the ideals and policies of the various 'state' or chartered legislative bodies. I know you are pointing to the Reformed worldview as a catalyst for the independence spirit. That would be correct, but I object to the notion the American Revolution was some kind of Presbyterian 'jihad.' The DoI points to the Reformation. I agree.
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3)
Which would raise the inevitable questions:
Object all you want. It's still true.
The best cross-section we have of the recorded faiths or denominations of the founders comes from the Continental Congress: Religious Affiliation of the 56 Signers of the Declaration of Independence In addition to Jefferson & Franklin, the excerpt I posted names Madison, Hamilton, Ethan Allen, Thomas Paine, Cornelius Harnett, Gouverneur Morris, Hugh Williamson, Elihu Palmer and even to some degree, George Washington. Thomas Paine is easy. He was a deist. Franklin's beliefs developed over his long life. Modern historians see him more as a Unitarian and not a deist. There are too many works on Washington showing his belief in a Trinitarian God. A good reference if you are interested is "Sacred Fire" a tome on the faith of George Washington. The book covers his own writings on faith and books he used for Bible Study and prayer. So many of the founding fathers that you claim were "Christian" may have been "Christian in name only"... practicing Public Christianity for political purposes while actually practicing Deism in private... (or perhaps even non- religious agnostics.) The above is called historical revisionism. It is an attempt by leftist 'scholars' today trying to read back modern sentiments/thoughts/motivations into historical figures. Why? I didn't waste my money on some worthless liberal arts degree in history, political science, philosophy or whatever... My background is Engineering Economics & Business, and has served me quite well over the years. Yes I am sure such has served you well in your professional career in your area of expertise. No doubt you would call me on an Engineering matter if I posted an excerpt from wikipedia asserting a matter.
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3)
Wasn't George the 3rd a Protestant himself?? You really know how to cut through the 'bull' very well:) Yeah all great points. Seems leftist are all for the 'rights of kings' now that they have their own emperor Zero.
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3)
Graven. According to Pericles Prots are stupid...At least we can spell:)
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3)
That above is the slogan for TOS.:)
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3)
Is a crucifix a graven image? Can a cross be a graven image? Is a fish figure as an symbol of Christianity a graven image? Good questions. Especially a crucifix or cross with the suffering Christ image on it. It was His time of shame. I always wondered that even when I was Catholic. I said "My Christ is not still hanging on a cross...He is Risen and the tomb is empty." You will probably get quite a few answers to your questions. I think the important piece is what I mentioned...the 2nd Commandment. If one prays to, bows to or worships an image then it is an idol. Some churches kneel before statues of human beings...saints and icons. I see that as a violation of the 2nd commandment which is clear. Now is Christian art ok? I think so. I think art is like music a way to express faith and honor God. When the image becomes an element of the worship and is 'venerated' then that becomes a problem.
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3)
I fully agree.
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
Wasn't George the 3rd a Protestant himself?? You really know how to cut through the 'bull' very well:) Yeah all great points. Seems leftist are all for the 'rights of kings' now that they have their own emperor Zero. Turned into a pretty interesting thread.... Excellent revelations and yes, great points, gents.
Object all you want. It's still true. So you are sticking with a Presbyterian 'jihad' with the Black Bde as a type of Mahdi army?
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3)
Is a crucifix a graven image? Can a cross be a graven image? Is a fish figure as an symbol of Christianity a graven image? Good questions. Especially a crucifix or cross with the suffering Christ image on it. It was His time of shame. I always wondered that even when I was Catholic. I said "My Christ is not still hanging on a cross...He is Risen and the tomb is empty." You will probably get quite a few answers to your questions. I think the important piece is what I mentioned...the 2nd Commandment. If one prays to, bows to or worships an image then it is an idol. Some churches kneel before statues of human beings...saints and icons. I see that as a violation of the 2nd commandment which is clear. I apologize for starting at the bottom on this thread, (more or less)... +100 on all your observations and points. Seemed every nook and cranny of my Roman Catholic church was festooned with statues, crossed, Mary holding Jesus, candles...with kneeling benches propped up before them. And think about *this* seemingly benign gesture: Doing the "sign of the cross" while walking or driving past the church. In that case has the church made itself an "Idol"? Not that it "hurts" anybody and may seem petty....it's just that isn't *it* a violation of the second commandment?
The history TC dug up on the Presbyterian influence and catalyst of the Revolution has not been widely circulated....but sure is interesting and thought-provoking. Instead of a "Jihad," I'd consider it more of a "Mosaic Movement" that led to our own promised land. ;-) The goal of the Reformed Prots wasn't to convert and turn America into a theocracy, but more to unshackle what was fast appearing to be a growing tyranny... Good thing that's nothing to worry about now.
As a Catholic, I am aware of the doctrine and of the history and of the various legalistic justifications. I am not, however, persuaded that there have in fact been many truly Just Wars before God. But if there have been, the American Revolution was not among them. Legalism does not convert wrongful killing into righteous killing, no matter who throws holy water at it.
I don't know where to start...
Oh you might want to use spell check for your post above. It's "inherently." Usually I give a pass on errors like that, but since you were asserting Protestants are stupid, I just thought I'd mention it. OUCH
I appreciate that you have indeed addressed and answered on of Bob's questions. Granted -- I understand where you're coming from. On a personal sovereignty level, at what point should one justify defending themselves? Is it when state/person confiscates/taxes our goods beyond what's considered "fair"? Should our house be confiscated without compensation, then what? I guess we could just find other shelter. What if we are extorted us for more than we could afford? Or are prevented from worship? Prevented from seeking the right medicine that heals us? And at what point should our family resist physical harm (without doing the same in kind?) Some are though calls....and maybe those questions are intended rhetorically.
Signed July 4, 1776 That was a full decade before The Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom was enacted into state law in 1786 and 15 years before our religious freedom was protected by the 1st Amendment to our Constitution. As I explained to you previously, many of the Founders at the Continental Congress were Christians for public/political purposes only, because they were prohibited from participating in politics if their religious beliefs did not conform to the official government religion.
Say Hey, Willie -- what *was* "the official government religion" at the time of the assembly of the Continental Congress? I ferget. Furthermore, THIS was you original assertion: Willie Green posted on 2015-04-22 15:45:19 ET How many "Deists" were only masquerading as Christians for "public/political purposes only," Willie? Got a head count? Or does Salon lack those stats? Let the record show that you've doubled down and wandered into BS territory here.
Don't think the founders were jumping ship based on a state law. Here are the denominations of the The Fifty Five Delegates to the Constitutional Convention: The Fifty Five Delegates to the Constitutional Convention Christian Denominations As I explained to you previously, many of the Founders at the Continental Congress were Christians for public/political purposes only, because they were prohibited from participating in politics if their religious beliefs did not conform to the official government religion. As I explained in response to you such is revisionist history. Trying to put modern ideas/culture/philosophy on 18th century people. What confirms my point is that AFTER the Constitution was ratified and the First Amendment in effect no one 'changed their faith' or expressed their lack of faith in the Christian God. There was no major historical event where people stopped going to church or the Christian faith was diminished. That came much later in American society with the rise of the socialist-progressive atheist humanist movement. This same movement exercised another tactic of historical revisionism by trying to invoke the few deists in colonial America as really atheists and like them. Which of course is bunk.
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3)
All killing is wrong even in war. Orthodox are denied communion for three years as penance if they kill in a war - rightous killing though it may be.
Perfect sound when heretics roast at the stake.
This same movement exercised another tactic of historical revisionism by trying to invoke the few deists in colonial America as really atheists and like them. Which of course is bunk. +500 Q: WHAT has prompted this sudden rash of historical revisionism that denied America's Christian Founders' past? I'm not sure Willie can refute and recalibrate your above confirmed point(s). No one was compelled to "changed their faith" after the USCON was ratified. NONE whatsoever. And for some reason, he's not yet refuted you link to the Fifty Five Delegates to the Constitutional Convention who were comprised of various Christian Denominations. Go ahead, Willie. Link us back to a source that supports your assertion that "Deists" were only masquerading as Christians for "public/political purposes only." And specify and source which ones were Deist/Atheist as well. Thanks. P.S. -- If you can't, you're just engaging in propagandist rumor-mongering and wishful thinking, aren't you?
Is your church using voodoo dolls at the Greek weenie roast these days? Or just describing your post-mortem milieu? Sorry... I've made other plans :-)
Oh stop that. The GOs are not blood thirsty murderers like their western 'brothers.' You all have a less bloody history probably because the Muslims killed all the resistance early on.
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3)
More on if the founders were 'phony' Christians.... John Langdon, a Congregationalist, was a founder and the first president of the New Hampshire Bible Society. While Governor of New Hampshire he issued an official Proclamation for a General Thanksgiving in which he said: "The munificent Father of Mercies, and Sovereign Disposer of Events, having been graciously pleased to relieve the United States of America from the Calamities of a long and dangerous war: through the whole course of which, he continued to smile on the Labours of our Husbandmen, thereby preventing Famine (the most inseparable Companion of War) from entering our Borders; - eventually restored to us the blessings of Peace, on Terms advantageous and honourable...." Rufus King, an Episcopalian, was a member of the Continental Congress, aide to General Sullivan in the War for Independence, minister to England, and a U.S. Senator. At a convention considering amendments to the New York Constitution in 1821 he said: "[In our laws...by the oath which they prescribe, we appeal to the Supreme Being to deal with us hereafter as we observe the obligation of our oaths. The Pagan world were and are without the mighty influence of this principle which is proclaimed in the Christian system - their morals were destitute of its powerful sanction while their oaths neither awakened the hopes nor fears which a belief in Christianity inspires." Nathaniel Gorham, a Congregationalist, helped write the Massachusetts's Constitution, which required: "Any person chosen governor, or lieutenant-governor, cousellor, senator, or representative, and accepting the trust, shall before he proceed to execute the duties of his place or office, take, make, and subscribe the following declaration, viz. 'I, ____, do declare, that I believe the Christian religion, and have a firm persuasion of its truth.'" Such a religious test was Constitutional until 1947 when the Supreme Court rewrote the Constitution by making the First Amendment apply to the states, not just the federal government. Roger Sherman, a Congregationalist, was the only Founder to sign the Articles of Association, the Declaration, the Articles of Confederation and the Constitution. He was a member of the committee that drafted the Declaration and the First Amendment. He also drafted the creed of the White Haven Congregationalist church, which he attended. Sherman, John Adams, and George Wythe drafted the instructions to American embassy to Roman Catholic Canada in 1776, which said: "You are further to declare that we hold sacred the rights of conscience, and may promise to the whole people, solemnly in our name, the free and undisturbed exercise of their religion. And...that all civil rights and the right to hold office were to be extended to persons of any Christian denomination." William Samuel Johnson, Episcopalian, son of Anglican (Episcopalian) minister Samuel Johnson and president of Columbia University from 1787-1800. In his remarks to the first graduating class at Columbia after the War for Independence he said: "You this day, gentlemen, assume new characters, enter into new relations, and consequently incur new duties. You have, by the favor of Providence and the attention of your friends, received a public education, the purpose whereof hath been to qualify you the better to serve your Creator and your country...." "Your first great duties, you are sensible, are those you owe to Heaven, to your Creator and Redeemer. Let these be ever present to your minds, and exemplified in your lives and conduct." "Imprint deep upon your minds the principles of piety towards God, and a reverence and fear of His holy name. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom and its consummation is everlasting felicity. Possess yourselves of just and elevated notions of the Divine character, attributes, and administration, and of the end and dignity of your own immortal nature as it stands related to Him." "Reflect deeply and often upon those relations. Remember that it is in God you live and move and have your being, - that in the language of David He is about your bed and about your path and spieth out all your ways, - that there is not a thought in your hearts, nor a word upon your tongues, but lo! He knoweth them altogether, and that he will one day call you to a strict account for all your conduct in this mortal life." "Remember, too, that you are the redeemed of the Lord, that you are bought with a price, even the inestimable price of the precious blood of the Son of God. Adore Jehovah, therefore, as your God and your Judge. Love, fear, and serve Him as your Creator, Redeemer, and Sanctifier. Acquaint yourselves with Him in His word and holy ordinances." "Make Him your friend and protector and your felicity is secured both here and hereafter. And with respect to particular duties to Him, it is your happiness that you are well assured that he best serves his Maker, who does most good to his country and to mankind." Alexander Hamilton, an Episcopalian, not only signed the Constitution but wrote 51 of the 85 Federalist Papers with Madison and Jay. He believed agreement on the Constitution could not have been obtained "without the finger of God." Although he agreed to duel with Burr, he told others that his duty as a Christian would prevent him from shooting and in his dying words claimed "a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ." When he was killed he was planning the creation of "The Christian Constitutional Society," as he explained in an 1802 letter to James Bayard: "I now offer you the outline of the plan they have suggested. Let an association be formed to be denominated 'The Christian Constitutional Society,' its object to be first: The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States." William Paterson, a Presbyterian, was a state attorney general, Governor of New Jersey, and a Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court. He studied law after attending the College of New Jersey, though, given his interests, if he was alive today he might have earned a criminal justice degree online. The town of Paterson, New Jersey was named in his honor. As a Supreme Court Justice, a newspaper account of his visit to the federal court in Portsmouth, New Hampshire shows he opened court in this fashion: "On Monday last the Circuit Court of the United States was opened in this town. The Hon. Judge Paterson presided. After the Jury were impaneled, the Judge delivered a most eloquent and appropriate charge....Religion and morality were pleasingly inculcated and enforced as being necessary to good government, good order, and good laws, for 'when the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice [Proberbs 29:2].'... After the [jury] charge was delivered, the Rev. Mr. Alden addressed the Throne of Grace in an excellent and well adapted prayer." William Livingston, a Presbyterian, was a delegate to both Continental Congresses, the first Governor of New Jersey, and a Brigadier General in the militia. He published articles defending Christianity in The Independent Reflector and offered this resolution in Congress on March 16, 1776, passed without objection: "We earnestly recommend that Friday, the 17th day of May next, be observed by the colonies as a day of humiliation, fasting, and prayer, that we may with united hearts confess and bewail our manifold sins and transgressions, and by a sincere repentance and amendment of life appease God's righteous displeasure, and through the merits and mediation of Jesus Christ obtain His pardon and forgiveness." David Brearly, an Episcopalian, served as a colonel in the War for Independence, Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of New Jersey, and was appointed to the federal bench by George Washington. He was a warden of St. Michael's Church, a delegate to the Episcopal General Convention in 1786, and helped compile the Protestant Episcopal Prayer Book. Benjamin Franklin, "I have lived, sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- God Governs in the Affairs of Men, And if a Sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, Is it possible that an empire can rise without His aid? "Except the Lord build the house, They labor in vain who build it." "I firmly believe this." Benjamin Franklin, June 28, 1787 Constitutional Convention James Wilson, "Human law must rest its authority ultimately upon the authority of that law which is divine....Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other."James Wilson, a signer of the Constitution and an original Justice on the U.S. Supreme Court In 1776 William Blount, a Presbyterian, helped draft the Tennessee Constitution which said: Article VIII, Section II: No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this State. Article XI, Section IV: That no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under this State. The quotation shows the Founders did not consider a belief in God to be a "religious test," which in the history of England in the century before our Constitution meant allegiance to a particular denomination. Equally important, modern political scientists now understand that man's rights arise from the prohibition's of God's moral rules, and the branch of modern mathematics known as Game Theory has now proven that it is not rational to follow God's rules unless one believes in a God who can see into the hearts and in the existence of eternal rewards and punishments. Evidently our Founders understood these ideas innately, though our own science has only recently been able to demonstrate them rigorously. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3)
That's the reason why I ended up being an E7 for over 10 years, I wasn't PC. And when you have PC NCOs writing your performance reports you aint going any higher, they're scared you'll end up being their boss or you'll take their place.
“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”
Those Progressives within academia, politics, and the left-leaning media are concerned that religious ideas may receive too much attention or acceptance within the general culture. As William F. Buckley said "...what we're up against, and though the Academy and the judiciary, is a felt disappointment that the American Revolution was not the French Revolution, and a consequent attempt to Jacobinize the Constitution into religion and its influence are wholly vanished from our public life." This attempt to marginalize religion, or even exclude it from the public sphere is an unstated recognition that religious ideology has profound influence on the minds of people, ideas that might run counter to contemporary Progressive elitism.
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
And when you have PC NCOs writing your performance reports you aint going any higher, they're scared you'll end up being their boss or you'll take their place. I survived my officer 'youth' because of NCOs like you in the Army. My godfather (Italian of course too:)) and father's best friend was an NCO in the Marine Corps during WWII in Pacific. When I was commissioned he told me there are good NCOs and bad NCOs and the test of a good junior officer is to listen to the good ones and take care of the men and the men will take care of you. Best advice and turned out to be the most solid advice I received.
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3)
Yep, first order of business for progressive socialist humanists is to silence any opposing views. The Bolsheviks were good at this.
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3)
I am in total disagreement with you, have you ever read the Declaration of Independence? Did you see the list of instances where the crown broke the law? When the Potentate breaks the law, it is justification to revolt, according to Romans 13.
The thread writer wants to color the revolutionary war in religious terms and that ends with heretics being burned at the stake - as is proper.
I am in total disagreement with you, have you ever read the Declaration of Independence? Did you see the list of instances where the crown broke the law? When the Potentate breaks the law, it is justification to revolt, according to Romans 13. Well, the quote is Vic's. If the reason the revolt back then was an unlawful regime, couldn't we also make that case for contemporary times? Maybe we're talking semantics here; Is "revolt" the same as waging a "just war" in this case? Or is it different? I can honestly see both the pro and con as it's pertains to Romans 13. Was the revolution fundamentally about self-defense or of an offensive nature? Was it about the oppressive evil and tyranny of a governance vs. negotiable quibbles? How *would* Jesus have handled it? (Just sayin.)
Is every Protestant a Salem Witch to you?
Exactly !!! Many Federal statist's would have you believe otherwise !!
Si vis pacem, para bellum
Comments (81 - 102) not displayed.
Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestThe question, as you well know, was the legitimacy of revolt against a lawful king as seen through the lens of Romans 13. So the legitimacy of the Revolution does not depend on other acts of the Founders or the Constitution/BoR they wrote years later. So all of that business about freeing their slaves is an anachronistic editorializing on subsequent history, not the revolt itself.
#42. To: TooConservative (#36)
#43. To: Vicomte13, TooConservative (#41)
#44. To: Pericles, SOSO (#28)
The so called Catholics aka Latins left the Orthodox.
#45. To: Pericles (#29)
The reason was that God could not be seen to be represented. Then Jesus was born and could be seen and touched.
#46. To: TooConservative (#30)
Unfortunately, the colonial legislatures were only empowered to deal with minor issues of home rule. They never had the authority to vote themselves independence.
#47. To: redleghunter (#45)
Did God command icons and statues to be commissioned in the Christian church? No. He said don't make them and DON'T bow down to them. It was the pagan Greek and Roman influence on apostate assemblies and the incorporation of the church into secular government which led to these pagan images and practices. No one can find any of your church decorations in the NT church.
#48. To: redleghunter (#46)
That would be correct, but I object to the notion the American Revolution was some kind of Presbyterian 'jihad.'
#49. To: Willie Green, GarySpFc (#37)
If you have one, I've never seen it, so a comprehensive list would be interesting.
#50. To: CZ82, liberator, tomder55 (#31)
You know I wonder how many of the monarchs in the past just up and seized power for themselves?? And it's funny you never ever hear the Leftys complain about that, only that freedom seeking men overthrew the monarchs.
#51. To: TooConservative, Pericles (#36)
Also, the Arc had craven images of Angels.
#52. To: BobCeleste (#35)
Some only read the heading and then post or email a condemnation.
#53. To: TooConservative, GarySpFc (#47)
Which would raise the inevitable questions:
#54. To: redleghunter (#53)
Good questions. Especially a crucifix or cross with the suffering Christ image on it. It was His time of shame. I always wondered that even when I was Catholic. I said "My Christ is not still hanging on a cross...He is Risen and the tomb is empty."
#55. To: redleghunter, CZ82, Bob Celeste, tomder55 (#50)
You know I wonder how many of the monarchs in the past just up and seized power for themselves?? And it's funny you never ever hear the Leftys complain about that, only that freedom seeking men overthrew the monarchs.
#56. To: TooConservative, liberator (#48)
American Revolution was some kind of Presbyterian 'jihad.'
#57. To: redleghunter, TooConservative, GarySpFc (#53)
Which would raise the inevitable questions:
#58. To: redleghunter, TooConservative (#46)
I know you are pointing to the Reformed worldview as a catalyst for the independence spirit. That would be correct, but I object to the notion the American Revolution was some kind of Presbyterian 'jihad.'
#59. To: Pericles (#43)
Vic, as a Catholic you know there is a justification for just wars. The American rebels rebelled in a legalistic manner after attempting diplomacy, organized an army to fight in the manner prescribed by civilized Christian nations of that era and conducted themselves as a nation state with an army in the field.
#60. To: Pericles (#4)
Protestant preachers are accursed heretics and thus inherintly stupid.
#61. To: redleghunter, Pericles (#7)
Forret Gump has a few one liners for you...
#62. To: Vicomte13, BobCeleste (#59)
I am not, however, persuaded that there have in fact been many truly Just Wars before God. But if there have been, the American Revolution was not among them.
#63. To: redleghunter, Vicomte13, GarySpFc (#49)
The best cross-section we have of the recorded faiths or denominations of the founders comes from the Continental Congress:
Religious Affiliation of the 56 Signers of the Declaration of Independence
Religious Affiliation of the 56 Signers of the Declaration of Independence
#64. To: Willie Green, redleghunter, Vicomte13, GarySpFc (#63)
As I explained to you previously, many of the Founders at the Continental Congress were Christians for public/political purposes only, because they were prohibited from participating in politics if their religious beliefs did not conform to the official government religion.
"Many of our Founding Fathers were actually Deists...our Founding Fathers were at best Deists... or perhaps godless merchants who despised paying taxes."
#65. To: Willie Green, liberator, BobCeleste, GarySpFc (#63)
That was a full decade before The Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom was enacted into state law in 1786 and 15 years before our religious freedom was protected by the 1st Amendment to our Constitution.
#66. To: Vicomte13 (#59)
Legalism does not convert wrongful killing into righteous killing, no matter who throws holy water at it.
#67. To: Liberator (#61)
OUCH
#68. To: redleghunter, Willie Green (#65)
What confirms my point is that AFTER the Constitution was ratified and the First Amendment in effect no one 'changed their faith' or expressed their lack of faith in the Christian God. There was no major historical event where people stopped going to church or the Christian faith was diminished. That came much later in American society with the rise of the socialist-progressive atheist humanist movement.
#69. To: Pericles (#67)
(Edited)
Perfect sound when heretics roast at the stake.
#70. To: Pericles, liberator (#67)
Perfect sound when heretics roast at the stake.
#71. To: Willie Green, GarySpFc, liberator, BobCeleste (#63)
As I explained to you previously, many of the Founders at the Continental Congress were Christians for public/political purposes only, because they were prohibited from participating in politics if their religious beliefs did not conform to the official government religion.
#72. To: redleghunter (#50)
You really know how to cut through the 'bull' very well:)
#73. To: All, redleghunter (#71)
#74. To: CZ82 (#72)
That's the reason why I ended up being an E7 for over 10 years, I wasn't PC.
#75. To: GarySpFC, BobCeleste, liberator, CZ82 (#73)
This attempt to marginalize religion, or even exclude it from the public sphere is an unstated recognition that religious ideology has profound influence on the minds of people, ideas that might run counter to contemporary Progressive elitism.
#76. To: Liberator, Vicomte13 (#62)
(Edited)
I am not, however, persuaded that there have in fact been many truly Just Wars before God. But if there have been, the American Revolution was not among them.
#77. To: redleghunter, liberator (#70)
#78. To: BobCeleste, Vicomte13 (#76)
I am not, however, persuaded that there have in fact been many truly Just Wars before God. But if there have been, the American Revolution was not among them.
#79. To: Pericles, BobCeleste, redleghunter, (#77)
The thread writer wants to color the revolutionary war in religious terms and that ends with heretics being burned at the stake - as is proper.
#80. To: nolu chan (#13)
" All of us need to be reminded that the Federal Government did not create the States; the States created the Federal Government. "
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