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I'm here for the moneuy Status: Not Logged In; Sign In United States News See other United States News Articles Title: Let me ask all of you some questions: Source: www.ChristianPatriot.com URL Source: [None] Published: Apr 22, 2015 Author: Pastor Bob Celeste ACP Post Date: 2015-04-22 14:58:34 by BobCeleste Keywords: ACP Views: 13593 Comments: 102 Let me ask all of you some questions: 1. Do you think today’s preachers are smarter, as smart or not as Scripturally smart as Preachers in the 1770's? 2. Do you think today’s politicians are smarter, as smart, or not as smart Constitutionally as politicians in the 1770's and the first days of our Republic? 3. If Revolution were legal, acceptable and encourage by both the politicians of the colonies and the preachers of the colonies in the 1770's, why is it unacceptable, and discouraged by both the preachers and the politicians today? 4. If Romans chapter 13 was not a problem to Christians revolting against the crown in the 1770's why is it today? Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread   Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 84. #8. To: BobCeleste (#0) #1 -- I have no idea... #2 -- The Constitution wasn't penned until the late 1780s, so during the 1770s everybody was Constitutionally clueless. #3 -- The Revolution only became "legal" and acceptable after our Founding Fathers won... Prior to that, they were considered to be treasonous outlaws. #4 -- Many of our Founding Fathers were actually Deists and not overly "Christian" as we understand today. Perhaps the God-fearing Christians tended more to be the Tories who were "conservative" and loyal to the Crown. And our Founding Fathers were at best Deists... or perhaps godless merchants who despised paying taxes. Willie Green  posted on  2015-04-22   15:45:19 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #11. To: Willie Green (#8) #4 -- Many of our Founding Fathers were actually Deists and not overly "Christian" as we understand today. Perhaps the God-fearing Christians tended more to be the Tories who were "conservative" and loyal to the Crown. And our Founding Fathers were at best Deists... or perhaps godless merchants who despised paying taxes. You started out pretty good, but your number four is pure bull, never ever print, as fact, what you learned in the public indoctrination centers called schools. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-04-22   17:05:37 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #15. To: BobCeleste, tpaine (#11) You started out pretty good, but your number four is pure bull, never ever print, as fact, what you learned in the public indoctrination centers called schools. Wikipedia excerpt: Deism in the United States In the United States, Enlightenment philosophy (which itself was heavily inspired by deist ideals) played a major role in creating the principle of religious freedom, expressed in Thomas Jefferson's letters and included in the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. American Founding Fathers, or Framers of the Constitution, who were especially noted for being influenced by such philosophy include Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Cornelius Harnett, Gouverneur Morris, and Hugh Williamson. Their political speeches show distinct deistic influence. Other notable Founding Fathers may have been more directly deist. These include James Madison, possibly Alexander Hamilton, Ethan Allen,[44] and Thomas Paine (who published The Age of Reason, a treatise that helped to popularize deism throughout the United States and Europe). A major contributor was Elihu Palmer (1764–1806), who wrote the "Bible" of American deism in his Principles of Nature (1801) and attempted to organize deism by forming the "Deistical Society of New York" and other deistic societies from Maine to Georgia.[45] In the United States there is controversy over whether the Founding Fathers were Christians, deists, or something in between.[46][47] Particularly heated is the debate over the beliefs of Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and George Washington.[48][49][50] Benjamin Franklin wrote in his autobiography, "Some books against Deism fell into my hands; they were said to be the substance of sermons preached at Boyle's lectures. It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist. My arguments perverted some others, particularly Collins and Ralph; but each of them having afterwards wrong'd me greatly without the least compunction, and recollecting Keith's conduct towards me (who was another freethinker) and my own towards Vernon and Miss Read, which at times gave me great trouble, I began to suspect that this doctrine, tho' it might be true, was not very useful."[51][52] Franklin also wrote that "the Deity sometimes interferes by his particular Providence, and sets aside the Events which would otherwise have been produc'd in the Course of Nature, or by the Free Agency of Man.[53] He later stated, in the Constitutional Convention, that "the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- that God governs in the affairs of men."[54] For his part, Thomas Jefferson is perhaps one of the Founding Fathers with the most outspoken of Deist tendencies, though he is not known to have called himself a deist, generally referring to himself as a Unitarian. In particular, his treatment of the Biblical gospels which he titled The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth, but which subsequently became more commonly known as the Jefferson Bible, exhibits a strong deist tendency of stripping away all supernatural and dogmatic references from the Christ story. However, Frazer, following the lead of Sydney Ahlstrom, characterizes Jefferson as not a Deist but a "theistic rationalist", because Jefferson believed in God's continuing activity in human affairs.[55][56] Frazer cites Jefferson's Notes on the State of Virginia, where he wrote, "I tremble" at the thought that "God is just," and he warned of eventual "supernatural influence" to abolish the scourge of slavery That's quite a few Founding Fathers who were either "deists" or had deist tendencies, Bob. I concede that Wikipedia isn't always the most accurate source of such information. But you'll have to cite a more reputable source if you want to claim that these men were strictly God-fearing Christians and not Deists. Willie Green  posted on  2015-04-22   20:23:48 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #21. To: Willie Green, GarySpFc, liberator, BobCeleste, CZ82 (#15) Many of our Founding Fathers were actually Deists Three don't even come close to a dozen. How many times must I post here the church affiliations of the founders? Leftists love to trot out Jefferson and Franklin as if they were the only founders. Also selectively quoting them. Over 90% of the founders were practicing Christians of Trinitarian denominations. The First Great Awakening was the major faith influence in colonial America. The Enlightenment swept Western European nations but had little impact in the American colonies. The revolution influenced by the Enlightenment was the French Revolution not the American revolution. In nations where the Enlightenment flourished, churches diminished. Fewer pews were occupied. In colonial America the Christian faith flourished and church membership grew. Call your alma mater and get your money back. redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-23   0:01:01 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #37. To: redleghunter (#21) How many times must I post here the church affiliations of the founders? If you have one, I've never seen it, so a comprehensive list would be interesting. Leftists love to trot out Jefferson and Franklin as if they were the only founders. In addition to Jefferson & Franklin, the excerpt I posted names Madison, Hamilton, Ethan Allen, Thomas Paine, Cornelius Harnett, Gouverneur Morris, Hugh Williamson, Elihu Palmer and even to some degree, George Washington. Don't forget: prior to the Revolution and our Constitution & Bill of Rights, religious tolerance was inconsistant in the Colonies. In fact, many colonies had official State religions and participation in politics/government was prohibited unless individuals were members of the officially established state religion. So many of the founding fathers that you claim were "Christian" may have been "Christian in name only"... practicing Public Christianity for political purposes while actually practicing Deism in private... (or perhaps even non-religious agnostics.) Call your alma mater and get your money back. Why? I didn't waste my money on some worthless liberal arts degree in history, political science, philosophy or whatever... My background is Engineering Economics & Business, and has served me quite well over the years. Willie Green  posted on  2015-04-23   8:08:34 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #49. To: Willie Green, GarySpFc (#37) If you have one, I've never seen it, so a comprehensive list would be interesting. The best cross-section we have of the recorded faiths or denominations of the founders comes from the Continental Congress: Religious Affiliation of the 56 Signers of the Declaration of Independence In addition to Jefferson & Franklin, the excerpt I posted names Madison, Hamilton, Ethan Allen, Thomas Paine, Cornelius Harnett, Gouverneur Morris, Hugh Williamson, Elihu Palmer and even to some degree, George Washington. Thomas Paine is easy. He was a deist. Franklin's beliefs developed over his long life. Modern historians see him more as a Unitarian and not a deist. There are too many works on Washington showing his belief in a Trinitarian God. A good reference if you are interested is "Sacred Fire" a tome on the faith of George Washington. The book covers his own writings on faith and books he used for Bible Study and prayer. So many of the founding fathers that you claim were "Christian" may have been "Christian in name only"... practicing Public Christianity for political purposes while actually practicing Deism in private... (or perhaps even non- religious agnostics.) The above is called historical revisionism. It is an attempt by leftist 'scholars' today trying to read back modern sentiments/thoughts/motivations into historical figures. Why? I didn't waste my money on some worthless liberal arts degree in history, political science, philosophy or whatever... My background is Engineering Economics & Business, and has served me quite well over the years. Yes I am sure such has served you well in your professional career in your area of expertise. No doubt you would call me on an Engineering matter if I posted an excerpt from wikipedia asserting a matter. redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-23   11:18:13 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #63. To: redleghunter, Vicomte13, GarySpFc (#49) The best cross-section we have of the recorded faiths or denominations of the founders comes from the Continental Congress: Religious Affiliation of the 56 Signers of the Declaration of Independence Signed July 4, 1776 Religious Affiliation of the 56 Signers of the Declaration of Independence That was a full decade before The Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom was enacted into state law in 1786 and 15 years before our religious freedom was protected by the 1st Amendment to our Constitution. As I explained to you previously, many of the Founders at the Continental Congress were Christians for public/political purposes only, because they were prohibited from participating in politics if their religious beliefs did not conform to the official government religion. Willie Green  posted on  2015-04-23   13:28:17 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #84. To: Willie Green (#63) Deism, Atheism, and the Founders By Dave Miller, Ph.D. Popular propaganda spouted for half a century or more claims that the Founders and Framers of America were deists and largely irreligious men who sought to establish a secular society that celebrates all ideologies, religions, and philosophies as equally valid. This sinister “diversity” myth has inflicted untold damage on American society, bringing the nation literally to the brink of disaster. The failure of the average citizen to examine the facts and assess the gravity of the situation is inexcusable. In reality, the religious orientation of the architects of American civilization, and their view regarding its importance to the establishment and perpetuation of the Republic, is easily ascertainable. Rather than wade through the myriad pages and books that purport to depict American history accurately, all one need do is simply reread the organic utterances issued by the Founders as they orchestrated the founding. Though not including all those who rightly wear the appellation “Founder,” nevertheless, the Continental Congress comprised a substantial portion of those men, and they may clearly be designated quintessential Founders (see Miller, 2009, p. 3). They certainly constitute a representative cross section of the men who brought the Republic into existence. Consider one sample among many in which the Continental Congress en masse issued a proclamation to the entire population of the country on March 19, 1782: The United States in Congress assembled...think it their indispensable duty to call upon the several states, to set apart the last Thursday in April next, as a day of fasting, humiliation and prayer...that He would incline the hearts of all men to peace, and fill them with universal charity and benevolence, and that the religion of our Divine Redeemer, with all its benign influences, may cover the earth as the waters cover the seas (Journals of..., 22:137-138, emp. added). The “Divine Redeemer” is Jesus Christ. Calling for Christ’s religion to “cover the earth as the waters cover the seas” is a direct allusion to two Old Testament passages—Isaiah 11:9 and Habakkuk 2:14.  The Founders insisted that the stability of the Republic depends on the Christian religion, with its moral principles and spiritual framework. They felt that though other religions may certainly be tolerated in America, the peculiar doctrines and practices of those religions must not be allowed to alter the laws and institutions of the nation. Nor must those doctrines and practices do any physical harm to Americans or violate Christian morality (e.g., polygamy, homosexuality, and abortion). The Founders would be horrified at the notion of “political correctness” and its corrosive, destructive influence. They would have difficulty believing that Americans would ever even consider allowing Sharia law to be included in our courts, schools, or government. The Founders never asked that Hinduism cover the Earth, nor Islam, Buddhism, or Atheism. Rather, they begged God to cover the Earth with the religion of Christ as thoroughly and completely as the waters cover the oceans of the world.b REFERENCES Journals of the Continental Congress, 1774-1789 (1904-1937), ed. Worthington C. Ford, et al. (Washington, D.C.: Government Printing Office), Library of Congress, http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/amlaw/lwjc.html. Miller, Dave (2009), Christ and the Continental Congress (Montgomery, AL: Apologetics Press). GarySpFC  posted on  2015-04-24   17:19:18 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   Replies to Comment # 84.         There are no replies to Comment # 84. End Trace Mode for Comment # 84. Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest

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