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I'm here for the moneuy Status: Not Logged In; Sign In United States News See other United States News Articles Title: Let me ask all of you some questions: Source: www.ChristianPatriot.com URL Source: [None] Published: Apr 22, 2015 Author: Pastor Bob Celeste ACP Post Date: 2015-04-22 14:58:34 by BobCeleste Keywords: ACP Views: 13585 Comments: 102 Let me ask all of you some questions: 1. Do you think today’s preachers are smarter, as smart or not as Scripturally smart as Preachers in the 1770's? 2. Do you think today’s politicians are smarter, as smart, or not as smart Constitutionally as politicians in the 1770's and the first days of our Republic? 3. If Revolution were legal, acceptable and encourage by both the politicians of the colonies and the preachers of the colonies in the 1770's, why is it unacceptable, and discouraged by both the preachers and the politicians today? 4. If Romans chapter 13 was not a problem to Christians revolting against the crown in the 1770's why is it today? Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread   Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 63. #8. To: BobCeleste (#0) #1 -- I have no idea... #2 -- The Constitution wasn't penned until the late 1780s, so during the 1770s everybody was Constitutionally clueless. #3 -- The Revolution only became "legal" and acceptable after our Founding Fathers won... Prior to that, they were considered to be treasonous outlaws. #4 -- Many of our Founding Fathers were actually Deists and not overly "Christian" as we understand today. Perhaps the God-fearing Christians tended more to be the Tories who were "conservative" and loyal to the Crown. And our Founding Fathers were at best Deists... or perhaps godless merchants who despised paying taxes. Willie Green  posted on  2015-04-22   15:45:19 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #11. To: Willie Green (#8) #4 -- Many of our Founding Fathers were actually Deists and not overly "Christian" as we understand today. Perhaps the God-fearing Christians tended more to be the Tories who were "conservative" and loyal to the Crown. And our Founding Fathers were at best Deists... or perhaps godless merchants who despised paying taxes. You started out pretty good, but your number four is pure bull, never ever print, as fact, what you learned in the public indoctrination centers called schools. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-04-22   17:05:37 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #15. To: BobCeleste, tpaine (#11) You started out pretty good, but your number four is pure bull, never ever print, as fact, what you learned in the public indoctrination centers called schools. Wikipedia excerpt: Deism in the United States In the United States, Enlightenment philosophy (which itself was heavily inspired by deist ideals) played a major role in creating the principle of religious freedom, expressed in Thomas Jefferson's letters and included in the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. American Founding Fathers, or Framers of the Constitution, who were especially noted for being influenced by such philosophy include Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Cornelius Harnett, Gouverneur Morris, and Hugh Williamson. Their political speeches show distinct deistic influence. Other notable Founding Fathers may have been more directly deist. These include James Madison, possibly Alexander Hamilton, Ethan Allen,[44] and Thomas Paine (who published The Age of Reason, a treatise that helped to popularize deism throughout the United States and Europe). A major contributor was Elihu Palmer (1764–1806), who wrote the "Bible" of American deism in his Principles of Nature (1801) and attempted to organize deism by forming the "Deistical Society of New York" and other deistic societies from Maine to Georgia.[45] In the United States there is controversy over whether the Founding Fathers were Christians, deists, or something in between.[46][47] Particularly heated is the debate over the beliefs of Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and George Washington.[48][49][50] Benjamin Franklin wrote in his autobiography, "Some books against Deism fell into my hands; they were said to be the substance of sermons preached at Boyle's lectures. It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist. My arguments perverted some others, particularly Collins and Ralph; but each of them having afterwards wrong'd me greatly without the least compunction, and recollecting Keith's conduct towards me (who was another freethinker) and my own towards Vernon and Miss Read, which at times gave me great trouble, I began to suspect that this doctrine, tho' it might be true, was not very useful."[51][52] Franklin also wrote that "the Deity sometimes interferes by his particular Providence, and sets aside the Events which would otherwise have been produc'd in the Course of Nature, or by the Free Agency of Man.[53] He later stated, in the Constitutional Convention, that "the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- that God governs in the affairs of men."[54] For his part, Thomas Jefferson is perhaps one of the Founding Fathers with the most outspoken of Deist tendencies, though he is not known to have called himself a deist, generally referring to himself as a Unitarian. In particular, his treatment of the Biblical gospels which he titled The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth, but which subsequently became more commonly known as the Jefferson Bible, exhibits a strong deist tendency of stripping away all supernatural and dogmatic references from the Christ story. However, Frazer, following the lead of Sydney Ahlstrom, characterizes Jefferson as not a Deist but a "theistic rationalist", because Jefferson believed in God's continuing activity in human affairs.[55][56] Frazer cites Jefferson's Notes on the State of Virginia, where he wrote, "I tremble" at the thought that "God is just," and he warned of eventual "supernatural influence" to abolish the scourge of slavery That's quite a few Founding Fathers who were either "deists" or had deist tendencies, Bob. I concede that Wikipedia isn't always the most accurate source of such information. But you'll have to cite a more reputable source if you want to claim that these men were strictly God-fearing Christians and not Deists. Willie Green  posted on  2015-04-22   20:23:48 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #21. To: Willie Green, GarySpFc, liberator, BobCeleste, CZ82 (#15) Many of our Founding Fathers were actually Deists Three don't even come close to a dozen. How many times must I post here the church affiliations of the founders? Leftists love to trot out Jefferson and Franklin as if they were the only founders. Also selectively quoting them. Over 90% of the founders were practicing Christians of Trinitarian denominations. The First Great Awakening was the major faith influence in colonial America. The Enlightenment swept Western European nations but had little impact in the American colonies. The revolution influenced by the Enlightenment was the French Revolution not the American revolution. In nations where the Enlightenment flourished, churches diminished. Fewer pews were occupied. In colonial America the Christian faith flourished and church membership grew. Call your alma mater and get your money back. redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-23   0:01:01 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #37. To: redleghunter (#21) How many times must I post here the church affiliations of the founders? If you have one, I've never seen it, so a comprehensive list would be interesting. Leftists love to trot out Jefferson and Franklin as if they were the only founders. In addition to Jefferson & Franklin, the excerpt I posted names Madison, Hamilton, Ethan Allen, Thomas Paine, Cornelius Harnett, Gouverneur Morris, Hugh Williamson, Elihu Palmer and even to some degree, George Washington. Don't forget: prior to the Revolution and our Constitution & Bill of Rights, religious tolerance was inconsistant in the Colonies. In fact, many colonies had official State religions and participation in politics/government was prohibited unless individuals were members of the officially established state religion. So many of the founding fathers that you claim were "Christian" may have been "Christian in name only"... practicing Public Christianity for political purposes while actually practicing Deism in private... (or perhaps even non-religious agnostics.) Call your alma mater and get your money back. Why? I didn't waste my money on some worthless liberal arts degree in history, political science, philosophy or whatever... My background is Engineering Economics & Business, and has served me quite well over the years. Willie Green  posted on  2015-04-23   8:08:34 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #49. To: Willie Green, GarySpFc (#37) If you have one, I've never seen it, so a comprehensive list would be interesting. The best cross-section we have of the recorded faiths or denominations of the founders comes from the Continental Congress: Religious Affiliation of the 56 Signers of the Declaration of Independence In addition to Jefferson & Franklin, the excerpt I posted names Madison, Hamilton, Ethan Allen, Thomas Paine, Cornelius Harnett, Gouverneur Morris, Hugh Williamson, Elihu Palmer and even to some degree, George Washington. Thomas Paine is easy. He was a deist. Franklin's beliefs developed over his long life. Modern historians see him more as a Unitarian and not a deist. There are too many works on Washington showing his belief in a Trinitarian God. A good reference if you are interested is "Sacred Fire" a tome on the faith of George Washington. The book covers his own writings on faith and books he used for Bible Study and prayer. So many of the founding fathers that you claim were "Christian" may have been "Christian in name only"... practicing Public Christianity for political purposes while actually practicing Deism in private... (or perhaps even non- religious agnostics.) The above is called historical revisionism. It is an attempt by leftist 'scholars' today trying to read back modern sentiments/thoughts/motivations into historical figures. Why? I didn't waste my money on some worthless liberal arts degree in history, political science, philosophy or whatever... My background is Engineering Economics & Business, and has served me quite well over the years. Yes I am sure such has served you well in your professional career in your area of expertise. No doubt you would call me on an Engineering matter if I posted an excerpt from wikipedia asserting a matter. redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-23   11:18:13 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #63. To: redleghunter, Vicomte13, GarySpFc (#49) The best cross-section we have of the recorded faiths or denominations of the founders comes from the Continental Congress: Religious Affiliation of the 56 Signers of the Declaration of Independence Signed July 4, 1776 Religious Affiliation of the 56 Signers of the Declaration of Independence That was a full decade before The Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom was enacted into state law in 1786 and 15 years before our religious freedom was protected by the 1st Amendment to our Constitution. As I explained to you previously, many of the Founders at the Continental Congress were Christians for public/political purposes only, because they were prohibited from participating in politics if their religious beliefs did not conform to the official government religion. Willie Green  posted on  2015-04-23   13:28:17 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   Replies to Comment # 63. #64. To: Willie Green, redleghunter, Vicomte13, GarySpFc (#63) As I explained to you previously, many of the Founders at the Continental Congress were Christians for public/political purposes only, because they were prohibited from participating in politics if their religious beliefs did not conform to the official government religion. Say Hey, Willie -- what *was* "the official government religion" at the time of the assembly of the Continental Congress? I ferget. Furthermore, THIS was you original assertion: "Many of our Founding Fathers were actually Deists...our Founding Fathers were at best Deists... or perhaps godless merchants who despised paying taxes." Willie Green posted on 2015-04-22 15:45:19 ET How many "Deists" were only masquerading as Christians for "public/political purposes only," Willie? Got a head count? Or does Salon lack those stats? Let the record show that you've doubled down and wandered into BS territory here. Liberator  posted on  2015-04-23 13:46:36 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #65. To: Willie Green, liberator, BobCeleste, GarySpFc (#63) That was a full decade before The Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom was enacted into state law in 1786 and 15 years before our religious freedom was protected by the 1st Amendment to our Constitution. Don't think the founders were jumping ship based on a state law. Here are the denominations of the The Fifty Five Delegates to the Constitutional Convention: The Fifty Five Delegates to the Constitutional Convention Christian Denominations As I explained to you previously, many of the Founders at the Continental Congress were Christians for public/political purposes only, because they were prohibited from participating in politics if their religious beliefs did not conform to the official government religion. As I explained in response to you such is revisionist history. Trying to put modern ideas/culture/philosophy on 18th century people. What confirms my point is that AFTER the Constitution was ratified and the First Amendment in effect no one 'changed their faith' or expressed their lack of faith in the Christian God. There was no major historical event where people stopped going to church or the Christian faith was diminished. That came much later in American society with the rise of the socialist-progressive atheist humanist movement. This same movement exercised another tactic of historical revisionism by trying to invoke the few deists in colonial America as really atheists and like them. Which of course is bunk. redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-23 13:58:50 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #71. To: Willie Green, GarySpFc, liberator, BobCeleste (#63) As I explained to you previously, many of the Founders at the Continental Congress were Christians for public/political purposes only, because they were prohibited from participating in politics if their religious beliefs did not conform to the official government religion. More on if the founders were 'phony' Christians.... John Langdon, a Congregationalist, was a founder and the first president of the New Hampshire Bible Society. While Governor of New Hampshire he issued an official Proclamation for a General Thanksgiving in which he said: "The munificent Father of Mercies, and Sovereign Disposer of Events, having been graciously pleased to relieve the United States of America from the Calamities of a long and dangerous war: through the whole course of which, he continued to smile on the Labours of our Husbandmen, thereby preventing Famine (the most inseparable Companion of War) from entering our Borders; - eventually restored to us the blessings of Peace, on Terms advantageous and honourable...." Rufus King, an Episcopalian, was a member of the Continental Congress, aide to General Sullivan in the War for Independence, minister to England, and a U.S. Senator. At a convention considering amendments to the New York Constitution in 1821 he said: "[In our laws...by the oath which they prescribe, we appeal to the Supreme Being to deal with us hereafter as we observe the obligation of our oaths. The Pagan world were and are without the mighty influence of this principle which is proclaimed in the Christian system - their morals were destitute of its powerful sanction while their oaths neither awakened the hopes nor fears which a belief in Christianity inspires." Nathaniel Gorham, a Congregationalist, helped write the Massachusetts's Constitution, which required: "Any person chosen governor, or lieutenant-governor, cousellor, senator, or representative, and accepting the trust, shall before he proceed to execute the duties of his place or office, take, make, and subscribe the following declaration, viz. 'I, ____, do declare, that I believe the Christian religion, and have a firm persuasion of its truth.'" Such a religious test was Constitutional until 1947 when the Supreme Court rewrote the Constitution by making the First Amendment apply to the states, not just the federal government. Roger Sherman, a Congregationalist, was the only Founder to sign the Articles of Association, the Declaration, the Articles of Confederation and the Constitution. He was a member of the committee that drafted the Declaration and the First Amendment. He also drafted the creed of the White Haven Congregationalist church, which he attended. Sherman, John Adams, and George Wythe drafted the instructions to American embassy to Roman Catholic Canada in 1776, which said: "You are further to declare that we hold sacred the rights of conscience, and may promise to the whole people, solemnly in our name, the free and undisturbed exercise of their religion. And...that all civil rights and the right to hold office were to be extended to persons of any Christian denomination." William Samuel Johnson, Episcopalian, son of Anglican (Episcopalian) minister Samuel Johnson and president of Columbia University from 1787-1800. In his remarks to the first graduating class at Columbia after the War for Independence he said: "You this day, gentlemen, assume new characters, enter into new relations, and consequently incur new duties. You have, by the favor of Providence and the attention of your friends, received a public education, the purpose whereof hath been to qualify you the better to serve your Creator and your country...." "Your first great duties, you are sensible, are those you owe to Heaven, to your Creator and Redeemer. Let these be ever present to your minds, and exemplified in your lives and conduct." "Imprint deep upon your minds the principles of piety towards God, and a reverence and fear of His holy name. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom and its consummation is everlasting felicity. Possess yourselves of just and elevated notions of the Divine character, attributes, and administration, and of the end and dignity of your own immortal nature as it stands related to Him." "Reflect deeply and often upon those relations. Remember that it is in God you live and move and have your being, - that in the language of David He is about your bed and about your path and spieth out all your ways, - that there is not a thought in your hearts, nor a word upon your tongues, but lo! He knoweth them altogether, and that he will one day call you to a strict account for all your conduct in this mortal life." "Remember, too, that you are the redeemed of the Lord, that you are bought with a price, even the inestimable price of the precious blood of the Son of God. Adore Jehovah, therefore, as your God and your Judge. Love, fear, and serve Him as your Creator, Redeemer, and Sanctifier. Acquaint yourselves with Him in His word and holy ordinances." "Make Him your friend and protector and your felicity is secured both here and hereafter. And with respect to particular duties to Him, it is your happiness that you are well assured that he best serves his Maker, who does most good to his country and to mankind." Alexander Hamilton, an Episcopalian, not only signed the Constitution but wrote 51 of the 85 Federalist Papers with Madison and Jay. He believed agreement on the Constitution could not have been obtained "without the finger of God." Although he agreed to duel with Burr, he told others that his duty as a Christian would prevent him from shooting and in his dying words claimed "a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ." When he was killed he was planning the creation of "The Christian Constitutional Society," as he explained in an 1802 letter to James Bayard: "I now offer you the outline of the plan they have suggested. Let an association be formed to be denominated 'The Christian Constitutional Society,' its object to be first: The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States." William Paterson, a Presbyterian, was a state attorney general, Governor of New Jersey, and a Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court. He studied law after attending the College of New Jersey, though, given his interests, if he was alive today he might have earned a criminal justice degree online. The town of Paterson, New Jersey was named in his honor. As a Supreme Court Justice, a newspaper account of his visit to the federal court in Portsmouth, New Hampshire shows he opened court in this fashion: "On Monday last the Circuit Court of the United States was opened in this town. The Hon. Judge Paterson presided. After the Jury were impaneled, the Judge delivered a most eloquent and appropriate charge....Religion and morality were pleasingly inculcated and enforced as being necessary to good government, good order, and good laws, for 'when the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice [Proberbs 29:2].'... After the [jury] charge was delivered, the Rev. Mr. Alden addressed the Throne of Grace in an excellent and well adapted prayer." William Livingston, a Presbyterian, was a delegate to both Continental Congresses, the first Governor of New Jersey, and a Brigadier General in the militia. He published articles defending Christianity in The Independent Reflector and offered this resolution in Congress on March 16, 1776, passed without objection: "We earnestly recommend that Friday, the 17th day of May next, be observed by the colonies as a day of humiliation, fasting, and prayer, that we may with united hearts confess and bewail our manifold sins and transgressions, and by a sincere repentance and amendment of life appease God's righteous displeasure, and through the merits and mediation of Jesus Christ obtain His pardon and forgiveness." David Brearly, an Episcopalian, served as a colonel in the War for Independence, Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of New Jersey, and was appointed to the federal bench by George Washington. He was a warden of St. Michael's Church, a delegate to the Episcopal General Convention in 1786, and helped compile the Protestant Episcopal Prayer Book. Benjamin Franklin, "I have lived, sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- God Governs in the Affairs of Men, And if a Sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, Is it possible that an empire can rise without His aid? "Except the Lord build the house, They labor in vain who build it." "I firmly believe this." Benjamin Franklin, June 28, 1787 Constitutional Convention James Wilson, "Human law must rest its authority ultimately upon the authority of that law which is divine....Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other."James Wilson, a signer of the Constitution and an original Justice on the U.S. Supreme Court In 1776 William Blount, a Presbyterian, helped draft the Tennessee Constitution which said: Article VIII, Section II: No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this State. Article XI, Section IV: That no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under this State. The quotation shows the Founders did not consider a belief in God to be a "religious test," which in the history of England in the century before our Constitution meant allegiance to a particular denomination. Equally important, modern political scientists now understand that man's rights arise from the prohibition's of God's moral rules, and the branch of modern mathematics known as Game Theory has now proven that it is not rational to follow God's rules unless one believes in a God who can see into the hearts and in the existence of eternal rewards and punishments. Evidently our Founders understood these ideas innately, though our own science has only recently been able to demonstrate them rigorously. In the founder's own words---scroll down redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-23 17:49:03 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #84. To: Willie Green (#63) Deism, Atheism, and the Founders By Dave Miller, Ph.D. Popular propaganda spouted for half a century or more claims that the Founders and Framers of America were deists and largely irreligious men who sought to establish a secular society that celebrates all ideologies, religions, and philosophies as equally valid. This sinister “diversity” myth has inflicted untold damage on American society, bringing the nation literally to the brink of disaster. The failure of the average citizen to examine the facts and assess the gravity of the situation is inexcusable. In reality, the religious orientation of the architects of American civilization, and their view regarding its importance to the establishment and perpetuation of the Republic, is easily ascertainable. Rather than wade through the myriad pages and books that purport to depict American history accurately, all one need do is simply reread the organic utterances issued by the Founders as they orchestrated the founding. Though not including all those who rightly wear the appellation “Founder,” nevertheless, the Continental Congress comprised a substantial portion of those men, and they may clearly be designated quintessential Founders (see Miller, 2009, p. 3). They certainly constitute a representative cross section of the men who brought the Republic into existence. Consider one sample among many in which the Continental Congress en masse issued a proclamation to the entire population of the country on March 19, 1782: The United States in Congress assembled...think it their indispensable duty to call upon the several states, to set apart the last Thursday in April next, as a day of fasting, humiliation and prayer...that He would incline the hearts of all men to peace, and fill them with universal charity and benevolence, and that the religion of our Divine Redeemer, with all its benign influences, may cover the earth as the waters cover the seas (Journals of..., 22:137-138, emp. added). The “Divine Redeemer” is Jesus Christ. Calling for Christ’s religion to “cover the earth as the waters cover the seas” is a direct allusion to two Old Testament passages—Isaiah 11:9 and Habakkuk 2:14.  The Founders insisted that the stability of the Republic depends on the Christian religion, with its moral principles and spiritual framework. They felt that though other religions may certainly be tolerated in America, the peculiar doctrines and practices of those religions must not be allowed to alter the laws and institutions of the nation. Nor must those doctrines and practices do any physical harm to Americans or violate Christian morality (e.g., polygamy, homosexuality, and abortion). The Founders would be horrified at the notion of “political correctness” and its corrosive, destructive influence. They would have difficulty believing that Americans would ever even consider allowing Sharia law to be included in our courts, schools, or government. The Founders never asked that Hinduism cover the Earth, nor Islam, Buddhism, or Atheism. Rather, they begged God to cover the Earth with the religion of Christ as thoroughly and completely as the waters cover the oceans of the world.b REFERENCES Journals of the Continental Congress, 1774-1789 (1904-1937), ed. Worthington C. Ford, et al. (Washington, D.C.: Government Printing Office), Library of Congress, http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/amlaw/lwjc.html. Miller, Dave (2009), Christ and the Continental Congress (Montgomery, AL: Apologetics Press). GarySpFC  posted on  2015-04-24 17:19:18 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   End Trace Mode for Comment # 63. Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest

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