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New Discovery! 2023 Hottest in over 120 Million Years 2024 and beyond in prophecy Questions Status: Not Logged In; Sign In United States News See other United States News Articles Title: Let me ask all of you some questions: Source: www.ChristianPatriot.com URL Source: [None] Published: Apr 22, 2015 Author: Pastor Bob Celeste ACP Post Date: 2015-04-22 14:58:34 by BobCeleste Keywords: ACP Views: 13491 Comments: 102 Let me ask all of you some questions: 1. Do you think today’s preachers are smarter, as smart or not as Scripturally smart as Preachers in the 1770's? 2. Do you think today’s politicians are smarter, as smart, or not as smart Constitutionally as politicians in the 1770's and the first days of our Republic? 3. If Revolution were legal, acceptable and encourage by both the politicians of the colonies and the preachers of the colonies in the 1770's, why is it unacceptable, and discouraged by both the preachers and the politicians today? 4. If Romans chapter 13 was not a problem to Christians revolting against the crown in the 1770's why is it today? Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread   Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest Comments (1-18) not displayed.       .       .       . #19. To: CZ82 (#9) Might explain English as a third language. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3) redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-22   23:34:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #20. To: Willie Green (#8) Many of our Founding Fathers were actually Deists No they were not. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3) redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-22   23:40:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #21. To: Willie Green, GarySpFc, liberator, BobCeleste, CZ82 (#15) Many of our Founding Fathers were actually Deists Three don't even come close to a dozen. How many times must I post here the church affiliations of the founders? Leftists love to trot out Jefferson and Franklin as if they were the only founders. Also selectively quoting them. Over 90% of the founders were practicing Christians of Trinitarian denominations. The First Great Awakening was the major faith influence in colonial America. The Enlightenment swept Western European nations but had little impact in the American colonies. The revolution influenced by the Enlightenment was the French Revolution not the American revolution. In nations where the Enlightenment flourished, churches diminished. Fewer pews were occupied. In colonial America the Christian faith flourished and church membership grew. Call your alma mater and get your money back. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3) redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-23   0:01:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #22. To: TooConservative (#18) Without those Calvinistic Presbyterians, there would have been no Revolution and no America. Which their duly elected officials broke ties with the crown. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3) redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-23   0:06:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #23. To: Pericles (#16) You haven't provided any evidence Protestants are heathens. Other than they don't submit to the Pharisees in funny hats who worship statues and pictures. What's the second commandment again? "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3) redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-23   0:10:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #24. To: TooConservative (#14) You won't get any straight answers to this one. Apparently, it was fine for the Founders to become traitorous rebels and depose the rule of their lawful king but it is unthinkable to dispose of some puny temporary mediocrity like the (generally loathsome) presidents of the last half-century. Part of military strategy is the feasibility of military success. That is also a tenet of the just war theory. I'm sure our founders kept this in mind. Would our founders have declared independence from the crown if the colonies were as close as say Whales or Ireland? Probably not as they knew the history surely of crushed Irish rebellions. Declaring independence was bold and the DoI a bold document. However there was the possibility the crown would capitulate to some of the grievances and spare a cross Atlantic war. The colonies had interior lines. As long as they had local support they could stay fighting. As long as the will was there England would have to keep sending men and supplies constantly over a large body of water. The founders knew this and knew independence was high risk but quite feasible. Pastors knew this as well. They had congregations mixed with Tories and Patriots. They knew that the tenet of feasibility was there given for the same reasons above. Where the founders took most of the risk was with Acceptability. Most historians put support for independence at just over 30%, indifference and crown support gaining the majority view. They took risk in thinking they could garner the undecided or indifferent populace. Seemed to work out. Suitability was never a concern as the colonial legislatures voted for independence. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3) redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-23   0:30:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #25. To: redleghunter (#23) You haven't provided any evidence Protestants are heathens. Other than they don't submit to the Pharisees in funny hats who worship statues and pictures. What's the second commandment again? It is self evident that all men are created equal and Protestants are heretics. Pericles  posted on  2015-04-23   0:47:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #26. To: Pericles (#25) You sure you aren't Catholic? You know the other One True Church the Orthodox are in rebellion against. Like the Highlander movie "there can only be one." The Orthodox were the first Protestants. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3) redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-23   0:56:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #27. To: Pericles (#25) BTW, the actual Exodus 20 second commandment is: “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; So there is that. Many churches violate the second commandment. Some bury it. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3) redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-23   1:00:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #28. To: redleghunter (#26) (Edited) ou sure you aren't Catholic? You know the other One True Church the Orthodox are in rebellion against. Like the Highlander movie "there can only be one." The Orthodox were the first Protestants. The so called Catholics aka Latins left the Orthodox. The Orthodox only call themselves that to not confuse westerners. The Orthodox still calls itself the Catholic church (Catholic being a common Greek word for universal) and to further confuse you ill educated westerners - the Orthodox Church considers itself thee Roman Catholic Church (Byzantine empire = Roman empire). Pericles  posted on  2015-04-23   2:08:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #29. To: redleghunter (#27) (Edited) TW, the actual Exodus 20 second commandment is: “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; So there is that. Many churches violate the second commandment. Some bury it. The reason was that God could not be seen to be represented. Then Jesus was born and could be seen and touched. Also, the Arc had craven images of Angels. Also, you Protestants forget that Jesus came along and ended the Old Covenant. Do you circumcise your male children in a religious ceremony? Do you keep Kosher? Pericles  posted on  2015-04-23   2:13:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #30. To: redleghunter (#24) Suitability was never a concern as the colonial legislatures voted for independence. Unfortunately, the colonial legislatures were only empowered to deal with minor issues of home rule. They never had the authority to vote themselves independence. Tooconservative  posted on  2015-04-23   6:06:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #31. To: redleghunter (#21) How many times must I post here the church affiliations of the founders? Leftists love to trot out Jefferson and Franklin as if they were the only founders. Also selectively quoting them. Until they give up on their propaganda, which will be a long time. You know I wonder how many of the monarchs in the past just up and seized power for themselves?? And it's funny you never ever hear the Leftys complain about that, only that freedom seeking men overthrew the monarchs. Wasn't George the 3rd a Protestant himself?? “Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.â€� CZ82  posted on  2015-04-23   6:58:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #32. To: nolu chan (#12) 4. If Romans chapter 13 was not a problem to Christians revolting against the crown in the 1770's why is it today? The Bible and all else is useful when it supports what someone wants, or if they can bend it or misrepresent it to support what they want, or oppose what they do not want. So, tell me your take on Romans 3, feel free to go into as much detail as you can. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-04-23   7:34:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #33. To: TooConservative (#14) You won't get any straight answers to this one. Apparently, it was fine for the Founders to become traitorous rebels and depose the rule of their lawful king but it is unthinkable to dispose of some puny temporary mediocrity like the (generally loathsome) presidents of the last half-century. I'm afraid that I am starting to agree with you. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-04-23   7:36:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #34. To: BobCeleste (#33) It's one of those arguments where you can be right and your opponents know that you're right but they'll do anything and everything to distract from that or to drag the discussion away from the central question. You can see it right here on this thread. Gee, and the Right wonders why we can't win anything any more when the GOP willingly creates a more and more powerful government at the behest of the big banking interests and the usual slobs at the CoC and the think tanks. Tooconservative  posted on  2015-04-23   7:42:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #35. To: redleghunter (#21) How many times must I post here the church affiliations of the founders? If you posted it 7 times a day, it would not be enough, perhaps 7 times 70 a day might start to reach some after 10 or 20 years, if they actually read first and post second. If you go to the search page of ChristianPatriot.com and put in the word "homosexual" without the quotation marks, you will find that I have been consistent since ACP's conception, yet the other day I got an email condemning me for my support of the homosexual life style. Some only read the heading and then post or email a condemnation. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-04-23   7:43:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #36. To: Pericles (#29) Also, the Arc had craven images of Angels. Graven. Tooconservative  posted on  2015-04-23   7:43:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #37. To: redleghunter (#21) How many times must I post here the church affiliations of the founders? If you have one, I've never seen it, so a comprehensive list would be interesting. Leftists love to trot out Jefferson and Franklin as if they were the only founders. In addition to Jefferson & Franklin, the excerpt I posted names Madison, Hamilton, Ethan Allen, Thomas Paine, Cornelius Harnett, Gouverneur Morris, Hugh Williamson, Elihu Palmer and even to some degree, George Washington. Don't forget: prior to the Revolution and our Constitution & Bill of Rights, religious tolerance was inconsistant in the Colonies. In fact, many colonies had official State religions and participation in politics/government was prohibited unless individuals were members of the officially established state religion. So many of the founding fathers that you claim were "Christian" may have been "Christian in name only"... practicing Public Christianity for political purposes while actually practicing Deism in private... (or perhaps even non-religious agnostics.) Call your alma mater and get your money back. Why? I didn't waste my money on some worthless liberal arts degree in history, political science, philosophy or whatever... My background is Engineering Economics & Business, and has served me quite well over the years. Willie Green  posted on  2015-04-23   8:08:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #38. To: TooConservative (#14) 4. If Romans chapter 13 was not a problem to Christians revolting against the crown in the 1770's why is it today? You won't get any straight answers to this one. Apparently, it was fine for the Founders to become traitorous rebels and depose the rule of their lawful king but it is unthinkable to dispose of some puny temporary mediocrity like the (generally loathsome) presidents of the last half-century. Well, Too, you know that if I give an answer, it will be very straight. You can probably write it yourself for me. Taking the question as phrased "IF Romans chapter 13 was not a problem to Christians..." The answer is that it should have been a problem for them, but it should only have been a very minor problem. Paul is not God. But what Jesus had to say about doing unto others, turning the other cheek, paying taxes and not killing, and what YHWH and the Elohiym had to say about not killing, should have all come together to have presented a great big showstopping problem to the Christians of the 1770s. Having proceeded out onto the very thin ice of "Here are too swords!", they then fell through that ice when they didn't "Do unto others as they would have done unto them" by freeing their slaves. The American Revolution is morally indefensible, and most of those who killed in its name ended up in Gehenna on account of it. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-04-23   8:20:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #39. To: Willie Green (#37) States continued to have Established Religions under the Constitution until the 1820s. The First Amendment doesn't prevent states from establishing an official religion and making everybody in the state pay taxes to support it (or rather, didn't, now it does); it merely prevent(ed) the federal government from doing so. Of course the Supreme Court has changed that by its decisions. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-04-23   8:23:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #40. To: Vicomte13 (#38) Well, Too, you know that if I give an answer, it will be very straight. You can probably write it yourself for me. I don't have your obvious talent with rhetoric and prose style. However: the Revolution was completed prior to any writing of the Constitution. You want to judge the Founders' performance as a whole over decades. The question, as you well know, was the legitimacy of revolt against a lawful king as seen through the lens of Romans 13. So the legitimacy of the Revolution does not depend on other acts of the Founders or the Constitution/BoR they wrote years later. So all of that business about freeing their slaves is an anachronistic editorializing on subsequent history, not the revolt itself. The Founders were relying more on the footnotes from Isaiah in the Geneva bible, the version carried by most colonists (especially rascally Presbyterians) that caused King James to produce the Authorized Version. James' one demand: no footnotes! He was right but he was too late to turn that Presbyterian tide of rebellion in the American colonies. Tooconservative  posted on  2015-04-23   8:41:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #41. To: TooConservative (#40) (Edited) The question, as you well know, was the legitimacy of revolt against a lawful king as seen through the lens of Romans 13. So the legitimacy of the Revolution does not depend on other acts of the Founders or the Constitution/BoR they wrote years later. So all of that business about freeing their slaves is an anachronistic editorializing on subsequent history, not the revolt itself. No, Too, the Bible was invoked. And when you invoke the Bible, you don't get to hide behind historicist and localist arguments about the petty motivations of locals. You stand before the Throne of God and are judged by his standards, which is perfection. If a man is not willing to insist upon God's standard of perfection, then when he quotes any line of the Bible to assert a partial agenda, he's not honest or truthful - he doesn't FEAR God enough to really be sincere about invoking him, he's just looking for some line from the book on which to hang an argument, in order to dupe the rubes. In the First Century Jesus gave a moral standard that had, as its effect, the eventual cessation of the cesspits of public torture and execution in the Roman Empire, and ultimately, the lack of slavery in medieval Europe, a tradition of serfdom, not slavery, in the Christian countries for a millennium, and a strong British tradition, among other places, of no slaves in England. The slave trade was not something happening in Europe in 1400. It was something that exploded on the scene with the discovery of the Americas and the want for labor to work this "brave new world", by monarchies who were already asserting their dominance over the Church. So, the notion that opposition to slavery was "anachronistic" in the 1770s is pure bullshit apologetics. It was illegal in England, and long had been, on Christian grounds. The people who opposed it, opposed it on Christian grounds. And the pure book, the Bible, on which the argument that wants to be born about why it's ok to kill people - the argument that I am smothering in its crib by denying the Founders any BIBLICAL legitimacy for their bloody revolution - has a letter regarding a slave that compels - on pain of the soul - the owner of a slave to remember that the slave is now his brother in Christ. Slavery is fundamental to the morality of the American Revolution. Just because the Americans were greedy and obtuse and chose to morally blind themselves to it does not mean that it isn't obvious, by the Biblical standard of perfection imposed by Jesus, that "all men are created equal, and endowed by their Creator..." includes slaves. Paul and Jesus spoke of slaves as men. And THEREFORE no Founder who would invoke the Bible for anything has any right, or any intellectual defense, in pretending otherwise. Jesus said to pay taxes. He said to submit to leaders and turn the other cheek. He said not to treasure money but God and called for brotherhood and love. And he and his father all the way back to Noah and Cain forbade killing. So, what excuse did the Founders have? They were not REALLY fighting for any CHRISTIAN equality of man: they didn't free the slaves. For what, then? To not pay taxes. That's not a legitimate reason to kill people, according to Jesus. What's left? We want to govern ourselves? God never ever said "Do not kill, unless you want to run the show, THEN you can commit as much killing as you need to." There was no justification for the American Revolution. It was mass killing for evil motives. The only thing that COULD have ended up justifying it WOULD have been the freeing of slaves and establishing brotherhood among Americans. But nothing like that was remotely on the minds of the Founders. There was nothing Christian about the American Revolution. It was murderous rebellion for illegitimate, un-Christian reasons. The Founders killed for reasons that cannot be justified by Scriptures. Romans 13 applied to them, they ignored it, and they won their little war and damned themselves to hell in the process. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-04-23   9:26:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #42. To: TooConservative (#36) I am using auto writer on cell phone - I stopped using computers a while ago. It has its downsides. Pericles  posted on  2015-04-23   9:58:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #43. To: Vicomte13, TooConservative (#41) Vic, as a Catholic you know there is a justification for just wars. The American rebels rebelled in a legalistic manner after attempting diplomacy, organized an army to fight in the manner prescribed by civilized Christian nations of that era and conducted themselves as a nation state with an army in the field. That is different from say the rebels of Syria who were and are chaotic, have no organizational structure between one militia and the other and produce worse atrocities than the regime they seek to overthrow. Pericles  posted on  2015-04-23   10:02:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #44. To: Pericles, SOSO (#28) The so called Catholics aka Latins left the Orthodox. Oooh, but they see that VERY differently. The Orthodox are not in submission to Peter's Chair. No Pope makes you guys Protestant. Welcome home. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3) redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-23   10:44:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #45. To: Pericles (#29) The reason was that God could not be seen to be represented. Then Jesus was born and could be seen and touched. Also, the Arc had craven images of Angels. Also, you Protestants forget that Jesus came along and ended the Old Covenant. Do you circumcise your male children in a religious ceremony? Do you keep Kosher? I've heard some rationalizations before on omitting the 2nd Commandment, but the above tops them all. YHWH commanded HIS earthly Ark (abode) would have the same make up as His Heavenly abode. The 2nd command still applies and is not akin to eating shellfish. Did God command icons and statues to be commissioned in the Christian church? No. He said don't make them and DON'T bow down to them. It was the pagan Greek and Roman influence on apostate assemblies and the incorporation of the church into secular government which led to these pagan images and practices. No one can find any of your church decorations in the NT church. I don't remember an epistle from an apostle which said "you foolish Galatians, why do you soil the holy icons..." "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3) redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-23   10:51:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #46. To: TooConservative (#30) Unfortunately, the colonial legislatures were only empowered to deal with minor issues of home rule. They never had the authority to vote themselves independence. They did appoint representatives to the Continental Congress. Those representatives brought forth the ideals and policies of the various 'state' or chartered legislative bodies. I know you are pointing to the Reformed worldview as a catalyst for the independence spirit. That would be correct, but I object to the notion the American Revolution was some kind of Presbyterian 'jihad.' The DoI points to the Reformation. I agree. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3) redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-23   10:57:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #47. To: redleghunter (#45) Did God command icons and statues to be commissioned in the Christian church? No. He said don't make them and DON'T bow down to them. It was the pagan Greek and Roman influence on apostate assemblies and the incorporation of the church into secular government which led to these pagan images and practices. No one can find any of your church decorations in the NT church. Which would raise the inevitable questions: Is a crucifix a graven image? Can a cross be a graven image? Is a fish figure as an symbol of Christianity a graven image? Tooconservative  posted on  2015-04-23   10:57:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #48. To: redleghunter (#46) That would be correct, but I object to the notion the American Revolution was some kind of Presbyterian 'jihad.' Object all you want. It's still true. Tooconservative  posted on  2015-04-23   11:01:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #49. To: Willie Green, GarySpFc (#37) If you have one, I've never seen it, so a comprehensive list would be interesting. The best cross-section we have of the recorded faiths or denominations of the founders comes from the Continental Congress: Religious Affiliation of the 56 Signers of the Declaration of Independence In addition to Jefferson & Franklin, the excerpt I posted names Madison, Hamilton, Ethan Allen, Thomas Paine, Cornelius Harnett, Gouverneur Morris, Hugh Williamson, Elihu Palmer and even to some degree, George Washington. Thomas Paine is easy. He was a deist. Franklin's beliefs developed over his long life. Modern historians see him more as a Unitarian and not a deist. There are too many works on Washington showing his belief in a Trinitarian God. A good reference if you are interested is "Sacred Fire" a tome on the faith of George Washington. The book covers his own writings on faith and books he used for Bible Study and prayer. So many of the founding fathers that you claim were "Christian" may have been "Christian in name only"... practicing Public Christianity for political purposes while actually practicing Deism in private... (or perhaps even non- religious agnostics.) The above is called historical revisionism. It is an attempt by leftist 'scholars' today trying to read back modern sentiments/thoughts/motivations into historical figures. Why? I didn't waste my money on some worthless liberal arts degree in history, political science, philosophy or whatever... My background is Engineering Economics & Business, and has served me quite well over the years. Yes I am sure such has served you well in your professional career in your area of expertise. No doubt you would call me on an Engineering matter if I posted an excerpt from wikipedia asserting a matter. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3) redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-23   11:18:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #50. To: CZ82, liberator, tomder55 (#31) You know I wonder how many of the monarchs in the past just up and seized power for themselves?? And it's funny you never ever hear the Leftys complain about that, only that freedom seeking men overthrew the monarchs. Wasn't George the 3rd a Protestant himself?? You really know how to cut through the 'bull' very well:) Yeah all great points. Seems leftist are all for the 'rights of kings' now that they have their own emperor Zero. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3) redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-23   11:20:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #51. To: TooConservative, Pericles (#36) Also, the Arc had craven images of Angels. Graven. According to Pericles Prots are stupid...At least we can spell:) "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3) redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-23   11:38:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #52. To: BobCeleste (#35) Some only read the heading and then post or email a condemnation. That above is the slogan for TOS.:) "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3) redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-23   11:39:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #53. To: TooConservative, GarySpFc (#47) Which would raise the inevitable questions: Is a crucifix a graven image? Can a cross be a graven image? Is a fish figure as an symbol of Christianity a graven image? Good questions. Especially a crucifix or cross with the suffering Christ image on it. It was His time of shame. I always wondered that even when I was Catholic. I said "My Christ is not still hanging on a cross...He is Risen and the tomb is empty." You will probably get quite a few answers to your questions. I think the important piece is what I mentioned...the 2nd Commandment. If one prays to, bows to or worships an image then it is an idol. Some churches kneel before statues of human beings...saints and icons. I see that as a violation of the 2nd commandment which is clear. Now is Christian art ok? I think so. I think art is like music a way to express faith and honor God. When the image becomes an element of the worship and is 'venerated' then that becomes a problem. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3) redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-23   11:49:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #54. To: redleghunter (#53) Good questions. Especially a crucifix or cross with the suffering Christ image on it. It was His time of shame. I always wondered that even when I was Catholic. I said "My Christ is not still hanging on a cross...He is Risen and the tomb is empty." I fully agree. “Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org GarySpFC  posted on  2015-04-23   12:22:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #55. To: redleghunter, CZ82, Bob Celeste, tomder55 (#50) You know I wonder how many of the monarchs in the past just up and seized power for themselves?? And it's funny you never ever hear the Leftys complain about that, only that freedom seeking men overthrew the monarchs. Wasn't George the 3rd a Protestant himself?? You really know how to cut through the 'bull' very well:) Yeah all great points. Seems leftist are all for the 'rights of kings' now that they have their own emperor Zero. Turned into a pretty interesting thread.... Excellent revelations and yes, great points, gents. Liberator  posted on  2015-04-23   12:37:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #56. To: TooConservative, liberator (#48) American Revolution was some kind of Presbyterian 'jihad.' Object all you want. It's still true. So you are sticking with a Presbyterian 'jihad' with the Black Bde as a type of Mahdi army? "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3) redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-23   12:42:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #57. To: redleghunter, TooConservative, GarySpFc (#53) Which would raise the inevitable questions: Is a crucifix a graven image? Can a cross be a graven image? Is a fish figure as an symbol of Christianity a graven image? Good questions. Especially a crucifix or cross with the suffering Christ image on it. It was His time of shame. I always wondered that even when I was Catholic. I said "My Christ is not still hanging on a cross...He is Risen and the tomb is empty." You will probably get quite a few answers to your questions. I think the important piece is what I mentioned...the 2nd Commandment. If one prays to, bows to or worships an image then it is an idol. Some churches kneel before statues of human beings...saints and icons. I see that as a violation of the 2nd commandment which is clear. I apologize for starting at the bottom on this thread, (more or less)... +100 on all your observations and points. Seemed every nook and cranny of my Roman Catholic church was festooned with statues, crossed, Mary holding Jesus, candles...with kneeling benches propped up before them. And think about *this* seemingly benign gesture: Doing the "sign of the cross" while walking or driving past the church. In that case has the church made itself an "Idol"? Not that it "hurts" anybody and may seem petty....it's just that isn't *it* a violation of the second commandment? Liberator  posted on  2015-04-23   12:46:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #58. To: redleghunter, TooConservative (#46) I know you are pointing to the Reformed worldview as a catalyst for the independence spirit. That would be correct, but I object to the notion the American Revolution was some kind of Presbyterian 'jihad.' The history TC dug up on the Presbyterian influence and catalyst of the Revolution has not been widely circulated....but sure is interesting and thought-provoking. Instead of a "Jihad," I'd consider it more of a "Mosaic Movement" that led to our own promised land. ;-) The goal of the Reformed Prots wasn't to convert and turn America into a theocracy, but more to unshackle what was fast appearing to be a growing tyranny... Good thing that's nothing to worry about now. Liberator  posted on  2015-04-23   12:56:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #59. To: Pericles (#43) Vic, as a Catholic you know there is a justification for just wars. The American rebels rebelled in a legalistic manner after attempting diplomacy, organized an army to fight in the manner prescribed by civilized Christian nations of that era and conducted themselves as a nation state with an army in the field. As a Catholic, I am aware of the doctrine and of the history and of the various legalistic justifications. I am not, however, persuaded that there have in fact been many truly Just Wars before God. But if there have been, the American Revolution was not among them. Legalism does not convert wrongful killing into righteous killing, no matter who throws holy water at it. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-04-23   12:58:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply         .       .       . Comments (60 - 102) not displayed. Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest

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