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Title: I RECANT.
Source: Chuck Baldwin / Facebook
URL Source: https://www.facebook.com/permalink. ... 69863063938&id=226997970644468
Published: Apr 5, 2015
Author: Chuck Baldwin
Post Date: 2015-04-15 02:15:42 by Hondo68
Keywords: None
Views: 52232
Comments: 178

I'm using this Facebook post to make a couple of personal confessions.

In one way or another, we are all victims of our past. I was schooled in certain persuasions that have taken 3/4 of a lifetime to overcome. But when I made a conscious decision to pursue and follow truth--no matter where it led me--many years ago, my mind and heart have been liberated with the illumination of truth time and time again. I personally believe that only people who, in their hearts, are sincerely open to truth will ever find it.

I will not make these issues a test of fellowship with those who disagree with me (although, I'm sure many of them will). I, myself, believed differently for all of my adult life. And these conclusions have not been made overnight. It has taken years of study and research to bring me to the conclusions I am sharing with you in this post.

Obviously, this forum will not allow me to go into detail about the conclusions I'm going to share. That must be reserved for another day and another forum. But, for the sake of the folks--especially those Christian folks--who follow my work, I believe I need to be honest and straightforward regarding these conclusions.

So, here we go:

1. I recant the dogmatism of a belief in a pre-millennial rapture.

That doesn't mean that I DON'T believe in a Rapture. It just means that I am no longer dogmatic about it; and neither do I think that it matters to a tinker's dam regarding my personal duty to God. The Lord is going to fulfill His divine will regarding prophetic events in His time. Quite frankly, I am convinced that, for the most part, it is not for us to know the things God has reserved unto Himself. (Acts 1:6, 7)

For too long, many of our pre-millennial friends have been using a belief in the Rapture as an excuse to sit back on their blessed assurance and do nothing. Even if the doctrine is true, the way it is being used as an excuse to not engage the liberty fight is downright shameful.

2. I recant the position that the modern state of Israel is the same as the prophetic Israel of the Bible.

The nation of Israel rejected their Messiah and God destroyed their nation, their capital city, and their temple in 70 AD. Spiritually, the children of Israel have been in a state of blindness ever since. With the advent of the New Testament Church, we are NOT Jews or Gentiles, Greeks or Barbarians, etc.: we are all ONE IN CHRIST. God's people today are the blood-washed saints of all races, ethnicities, nationalities, etc. Again, we are ONE IN CHRIST.

Accordingly, I am convinced that the modern state of Israel is NOT the prophetic fulfillment of the future redeemed nation of Israel. NOT IN ANY SHAPE, MANNER, OR FORM. I further conclude that the misapplication of applying prophetic scriptures to the modern state of Israel is producing nothing but perpetual war, the demise of liberty at home, the rise of a Police State, and the facilitation of a devilish New World Order.

So, there you have it. I RECANT.


Poster Comment:

I wonder if he's getting ready to run for president again?

I voted for him when Ron Paul endorsed him in '08, and I just might again in '16.

Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread  


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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 77.

#6. To: hondo68 (#0)

Chuck,

You're right about the modern state of Israel.

As far as the "Rapture" goes, it doesn't exist at all, but I'm glad that at least you no longer give it importance.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-04-15   8:10:27 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: Vicomte13, BobCeleste, Don, hondo68, liberator (#6)

As far as the "Rapture" goes, it doesn't exist at all

Sure it does. Literally in the Latin. More clearly in the Greek "caught up."

Now when it happens, I agree it is debatable as it is not clear in Scriptures. That is what he means by not being 'dogmatic.' Some theologians say 'it will happen before, during or after' some events. It is not clear and the scripture reference from Acts 1 from Baldwin is sage advice. I took that advice from Jesus Christ own words a few years ago.

Personally? All I need is the Upper Room discourse. Jesus told His followers if they love Him He will come for them.

On Israel? Who knows. Baldwin should have stopped with saying "I don't know" like he did for rapture. Because none of us do know. What do we know God will do with a multitude of 'physical' Jews/Israelites gathered in the same geographic location? We don't know. Perhaps as St Augustine believed that in the end a remnant of Jews would convert to Christ for the Glory of God.

Should we support the only democracy in the ME from a secular standpoint? Seems reasonable. Should we care for the well being of Jewish people who still need their Messiah. Yes we should. Should we side with them when they disobey the laws of God...No.

From the perspective of Baldwin I agree...One's Christian faith should not influence politically and militarily a certain secular state. If Christians truly loved the people of Messiah and His apostles, they would provide Christian based support. If the US government values a democratic partner in the ME then they should pursue the government of Israel as an ally.

I do await Baldwin's expanded comments on Israel. Somehow he links wars we fight with Israel's existence. Is he suggesting Israel not govern themselves and surrender to Arab Muslim nations? I don't think so, but he sees some connection with all the wars America fights with Israel 'just being there.' That is a bit concerning.

redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-15   10:50:27 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: redleghunter (#14)

 Jesus told His followers if they love Him He will come for them

Did they get "ruptured"?

A Pole  posted on  2015-04-15   11:46:12 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: A Pole (#19)

You make jokes, however I pointed out the word 'caught up' is clearly in Scriptures.

redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-15   12:44:48 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: redleghunter (#28)

[...]

Proponents of the doctrine of a pre-Tribulation Rapture claim that it rests on Scripture and has always been a part of Christian teaching. The truth is that it dates from about 1830 and was largely the creation of John Nelson Darby, a one-time Anglican priest and founder of a sect called the Plymouth Brethren. He contributed much to the dispensationalist scheme, and in particular he was the first to include the Rapture among the catalogue of phenomena of the last times. The Rapture’s recent origin is one of the things which should make us skeptical. Neither the Apostles nor the Fathers expounded any such teaching (nor, for that matter, did any of the notorious heretics of the past). Even Darby’s circle, although they claimed to find support for their teaching in the Bible, did not maintain that they had arrived at this doctrine through study of the Scriptures, but that they had received it through a revelation. According to its supporters the pre-Tribulation Rapture is an extremely important part of the Christian message. Yet it was unknown before 1830.

The Rapture’s supporters derive their opinions ultimately from a single Scripture verse

[...]

When we look at verse 17 in context, it is easy to see that is does not really support the doctrine of the Rapture. There is no reference to a Great Tribulation or to any other events preceding Christ’s Return. The verse refers to something that will happen as part of the Lord’s Coming. The course of events St. Paul presents is simple and straight-forward. At the time of the Second Coming, the dead will be raised, and all the faithful (the dead now restored and those still alive now transfigured) will ascend to be with Him as He comes down. This is the universal interpretation of the Fathers who see the verse as referring to the last days.

[...]

A Pole  posted on  2015-04-15   15:29:06 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: A Pole (#36)

Thanks for the propaganda. Please explain how 'harpazo' does not show up in the Greek? It's there.

If you were paying attention to my posts, you would not have posted what you did.

redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-15   15:42:26 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: redleghunter (#37)

Please explain how 'harpazo' does not show up in the Greek? It's there.

Huh? Did I say anything about "harpazo"?

BTW the word in Greek is arpagisometha.

A Pole  posted on  2015-04-15   15:58:16 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: A Pole (#38)

BTW the word in Greek is arpagisometha.

Which means...exactly what I posted earlier 'caught up' or 'taken away.' The same use as in Acts 8:39.

harpazo (transliteration) I. to seize, carry off by force

II. to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly

III. to snatch out or away

harpazM

Tense: Second Future Voice: Passive Mood: Indicative

* The Second Future Passive Indicative verb form occurs 26 times in the New Testament.

redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-15   16:18:27 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: redleghunter, A Pole (#39) (Edited)

BTW the word in Greek is arpagisometha. Which means...exactly what I posted earlier 'caught up' or 'taken away.' The same use as in Acts 8:39.

harpazo (transliteration) I. to seize, carry off by force

II. to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly

III. to snatch out or away

harpazM

Tense: Second Future Voice: Passive Mood: Indicative

* The Second Future Passive Indicative verb form occurs 26 times in the New Testament.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3)

The Greeks, who speak and read Greek, having been Greek and Christian for 2 milleniums never read these Greek lines and came up with the Rapture theory until some Protestant Englishman understood it that way.

Pericles  posted on  2015-04-15   16:52:01 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: Pericles (#40)

The Greeks, who speak and read Greek, having been Greek and Christian for 2 milleniums never read these Greek lines and came up with the Rapture theory until some Protestant Englishman understood it that way.

I guess English reading comprehension not withstanding. We were discussing the claim "Rapture is not in the Bible" statements of others. Yes it is.

I don't care who Darby is (he was Irish BTW) or any theories. I was addressing the term 'rapture' (English) is the 'caught up' of 'harpazo.'

redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-15   17:17:31 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: redleghunter (#41) (Edited)

I was addressing the term 'rapture' (English) is the 'caught up' of 'harpazo.'

The term has a specific meaning and it is based on Darby's thesis. No Greek ever read the line or lines in question and thought they would be blinked up or flown up into heaven while alive before the anti-christ comes. The Greek Fathers actually talk about being on earth to endure the torture of the anti- christ as being something to prepare as a way to test the believer for his worthiness to be in heaven.

Pericles  posted on  2015-04-16   0:53:43 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: Pericles (#47)

The term has a specific meaning and it is based on Darby's thesis. No Greek ever read the line or lines in question and thought they would be blinked up or flown up into heaven while alive before the anti-christ comes. The Greek Fathers actually talk about being on earth to endure the torture of the anti- christ as being something to prepare as a way to test the believer for his worthiness to be in heaven.

The thesis was not the subject of the discussion. However, like over at TOS folks just like to drop their various out of context opinions.

No Greek ever read the line or lines in question and thought they would be blinked up or flown up into heaven while alive before the anti-christ comes.

Again, you are arguing with a premise I did not put forth. If you read my comments, I agree in principle with Baldwin. We cannot be 'dogmatic' on the timing of 1 Thes. 4:15-17. The fact is 'caught up' IS there (which Baldwin does not deny will happen) but does not say when. In an earlier post I outlined many of the theories out there. None of which were Dispensational or Darby.

The fact is even for your church and the Roman church there is no magesterial infallible teaching for those verses. Having a priest opine on it is fine and I welcome the opinions, but they are not infallible authorities. The certainty we have of end times events are clearly outlined in Holy Scriptures and confirmed in the early creeds. Christ will come again, resurrection and judgment following. My point throughout has been above the aforementioned anything above and beyond the clear teachings in Holy Scriptures is the theory or speculation of man. Which means one person's or group's theory is not dogmatic.

No Greek ever read the line or lines in question and thought they would be blinked up or flown up into heaven...

External from Scriptures the closest we have an early church theologian addressing end times is Irenaeus:

1. In the previous books I have set forth the causes for which God permitted these things to be made, and have pointed out that all such have been created for the benefit of that human nature which is saved, ripening for immortality that which is [possessed] of its own free will and its own power, and preparing and rendering it more adapted for eternal subjection to God. And therefore the creation is suited to [the wants of] man; for man was not made for its sake, but creation for the sake of man. Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons “as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance— in fact, as nothing;” Isaiah 40:15 so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” Matthew 24:21 For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.

Against Heresies (Book V, Chapter 29) http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103529.htm

redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-16   9:44:43 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: redleghunter (#56)

And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” Matthew 24:21 For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.

Clearly the reading here is the Church will be caught in the tribulation like you are caught in a storm. And as you can see - to suffer at the hands of the antichrist is the last contest of the rightous - none of this stupidity of vanishing people who are good Christians so they won't have to face the tribulation time.

Pericles  posted on  2015-04-16   10:51:31 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: Pericles (#61)

Clearly the reading here is the Church will be caught in the tribulation like you are caught in a storm. And as you can see - to suffer at the hands of the antichrist is the last contest of the rightous - none of this stupidity of vanishing people who are good Christians so they won't have to face the tribulation time.

Thank you for your personal interpretation. However, that is not what the passage from Irenaeus said.

And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” Matthew 24:21 For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.

Irenaeus uses 'caught up from this' and not 'caught up in.'

It would be more accurate to say that the words used by Irenaeus are not certain or clear as was his view of the events unfolding. Using historical exegesis of his time, these were humble men who offered what the Scriptures said without providing much in the way of 'out of the box' commentary. So for me, someone who sees the church enduring the full tribulation of days or "Jacob's time of trouble" can take Irenaeus as saying this. But he leaves open the matter of when the 'the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this.' He leaves that open and does not equate such with a final judgment nor one time resurrection from the dead. That also shows me why some, especially Jewish Messianic Christians see a 'mid tribulation' deliverance of the elect at the 7th and last trumpet. This is the most literal approach of all I have seen, as Paul references the 'with the trumpet of God.' So there is enough in what Irenaeus says and does not say to support both views. Plus if you get the 'spirit' of what he writes, he tells his readers in our common tongue today 'don't worry about it, for it is God's plan.' Another sentiment I share with Baldwin's short comments.

Irenaeus left that hanging out there as only reporting the facts from Scriptures and not speculating. I respect this approach and it seems Baldwin is saying much as well.

Dispensationals mainly base their eschatology not on a couple of rapture verses but the key being what is meant as 'the wrath of God.' There are two key verses in Scriptures which show God delivers His elect from the 'wrath to come.'

Is this the wrath of eternal damnation or wrath poured out as evidenced in Revelation before the Second coming of Christ? That is the question and is what Dispensationalism bases the theory on, not the rapture verses. They see those as supporting verses.

redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-16   11:27:23 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: redleghunter (#64) (Edited)

Irenaeus uses 'caught up from this' and not 'caught up in.'

In Greek it is clear what he means - the term means "seizure, rape, kidnapping" both in Latin and in Greek - rapture word origin for rape. Jesus is going to rape his people? In Greek the use of harpazo is exactly the same as in Latin - in a negative way. I just can't read that in Greek and view that as a positive occurance to be raptured.

Pericles  posted on  2015-04-16   11:55:40 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: Pericles (#66)

In Greek it is clear what he means - the term means "seizure, rape, kidnapping" both in Latin and in Greek - rapture word origin for rape. Jesus is going to rape his people? In Greek the use of harpazo is exactly the same as in Latin - in a negative way. I just can't read that in Greek and view that as a positive occurance to be raptured.

That's quite bizarre.

I. to seize, carry off by force

II. to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly

III. to snatch out or away

See Here

redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-16   14:15:12 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: redleghunter (#73)

That's quite bizarre.

Why is that bizarre to you? Are you a Greek speaker? Somehow Greeks forgot what these words mean?

Pericles  posted on  2015-04-16   18:55:55 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


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