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Title: Stunning! Obama Administration Declassifies Document on Israel’s Nuclear Power
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URL Source: http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/201 ... ment-on-israels-nuclear-power/
Published: Mar 25, 2015
Author: Posted by Jim Hoft
Post Date: 2015-03-25 22:04:54 by A K A Stone
Keywords: None
Views: 8373
Comments: 49
Dimona nuclear plant in the southern Negev desert of Israel. (Alphabetics) In a stunning move the Obama administration released 1987 report on Israel’s top secret nuclear program. Israel National News reported: Obama revenge for Netanyahu’s Congress talk? 1987 report on Israel’s top secret nuclear program released in unprecedented move. In a development that has largely been missed by mainstream media, the Pentagon early last month quietly declassified a Department of Defense top- secret document detailing Israel’s nuclear program, a highly covert topic that Israel has never formally announced to avoid a regional nuclear arms race, and which the US until now has respected by remaining silent. But by publishing the declassified document from 1987, the US reportedly breached the silent agreement to keep quiet on Israel’s nuclear powers for the first time ever, detailing the nuclear program in great depth. The timing of the revelation is highly suspect, given that it came as tensions spiraled out of control between Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu and US President Barack Obama ahead of Netanyahu’s March 3 address in Congress, in which he warned against the dangers of Iran’s nuclear program and how the deal being formed on that program leaves the Islamic regime with nuclear breakout capabilities. The Hamas terrorist organization admitted last year that they attempted to hit the nuclear reactor in Dimona, Israel. The Obama administration just made things easier for Israel’s enemies.
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#10. To: Don (#9)
The Old Testament indicates that, yep, pretty much. At least with the Jewish people under the Old Covenant. By the time of the New Testament, you see multiple mentions of those who would not believe without a sign or wonder to confirm it and the necessary role of faith.
God ALSO made a covenant with Ishmael, that promises that the Israelites will never have peace and security in that land unless they deal squarely with the Arabs, for God has promised that Ishmael will always be among the tents of Isaac, and will always have his hand against him. Isaac gets the land - as a legacy of Abraham's covenant. He also inherits the consequences of the evil that Abraham and Sarah did to Hagar and Ishmael. TWO covenants came out of that era, not just one. Both are operant, as yin and yang to each other, with all of the intractable hostility, unless their heirs both embrace the new covenant of Christ and live as brothers under their common Father, not Abraham, but God.
It doesn't apply to the Church either. There's a NEW convenant with the Church. The convenant with Israel was this: Do ALL OF THESE THINGS, and you will get a FARM in Israel. That's it. That's all God promised the Hebrews. There is no promise of eternal life, or even any reference to the afterlife. THAT was revealed by Jesus, not Moses. There is nothing in the old covenant about life after death, or heaven or hell. It was this, and only this: do all these things, and I will give you a farm in Israel. Break these laws, and I will drive you out. That was the covenant at Sinai. The covenant with Abraham was: your heirs will inherit this land. Well, they did. Jews AND Arabs are descendants of Abraham. That covenant was and still is fulfilled. And the covenant with Hagar and Ishmael was: I will make you (Arabs) great nations, and your hand will be against your neighbor, and you will dwell among the tents of Isaac. That covenant is also obviously in force: the Arabs are Ishmaelites, they dwell among the Jews of Israel, they don't get along, and the Israelites can never win and drive them out. Those are the covenants of the Old Testament, along with the "No second flood" covenant God gave to all living things after the Flood. By destroying the Temple and its priesthood, as Jesus pronounced, God made it IMPOSSIBLE for the Jews to fulfill the terms of their covenant. Remember, to get the farm, they have to do EVERYTHING in the law. Otherwise, they don't get the farm. Three quarters of the law God gave was ritual, which was required to be performed. It was the CENTRAL aspect of the law of God. It had to be performed by specific priests in lineal bloodline. To appoint anybody else, as the Northern Israelites did, was an abomination before God for which he destroyed them. The Temple destruction by the Romans wiped out and scattered the priests, destroyed the Temple, destroyed the ephod and the Urim and Thummim. Those things were wiped away, by God, using Roman agency. The Jews could not follow the law if they WANTED to. They cannot follow it unless they bulldoze the Dome of the Rock and put up the altar there again. But the Dome of the Rock is Ishmael's. HE is sitting there with his mosque. If the Jews attack that, the whole tribe of Ishmael will be on them again, hand raised, and the Jews won't wipe them out. God's covenant with Ishmael means that the Jews never get to WIN. Rather, they fight and end up living unhappily with Ishmael, and fighting again. That's how those two covenants of Abraham and Ishmael work together. The destruction of the Temple and its priesthood in 69 AD, after the judgment of Jesus, renders the Mosaic covenant impossible to keep on the Jews' end. And the terms of that covenant are IF you keep it, you get a farm. They can't keep it, so they don't get the farm. All they get is Isaac's portion: to live in the land. WITH Ishmael. In struggle. Pretty bad deal. The best option: take Jesus' new convent, get eternal life, and live with your brothers in peace. Of course, that's hard to do if you don't believe that Jesus was the Son of God.
"Faith" in the new testament is the word "trust", not the word "belief". Jesus demands TRUST. TRUST ME and do as I say. Belief, as a mental assent to the existence of something, is a different word. Jesus didn't demand mental assent to existence, what he demanded was that people trust God and do things that were risky. When Peter walked on water and then sank, when Jesus rebuked him for his lack of faith, he was not rebuking him for disbelieving. He was rebuking him for not TRUSTING that Jesus would protect him from the raging waters and storm.
"Egypt's gonna get one too, just to use on you-know-who. So Israel's getting tense, wants one in self-defense. 'The Lord's our shepherd' says the psalm, but just in case...we'd better get a bomb." - Tom Lehrer
And you see Jesus on at least three occasions specifically referring to the miracles he had just performed (or was about to) as the REASON that people should believe he was the Son, sent with authority.
Ok, would you please give me Chapter and Verse on your statement. I know that God said Ishmael's hands would be against others and their hands would be against him. The rest of it is out of left field.
You do know that the Islamic religion is a false one, don't you? The Israelites are back in the land that God gave to them and that includes all of Jerusalem.
"Stunning"?? No expected. What IS "stunning" is that such a blatant saboteur of Israeli security feels invincable.
Seems to be his obsession at this point, as well as helping destroy Israel. (Destroying the USA seems to have fallen to his #2 priority.)
Seems to be his obsession at this point, as well as helping destroy Israel. " Of course, the HNIC is a communist Muslim! The only thing I can say in defense of the American voters is that he barely had token opposition ( mc stain, and rommney ) and also TPTB controlled the electronic vote counting.
Si vis pacem, para bellum
Islam is in error because it denies that Jesus was the Son of God, and because it denies the existence of the Holy Spirit. Essentially, the Muslims are Arian Heretics, with Mohammed as a "Prophet" as opposed to Arius. Go look at Genesis. When Hagar fled into the desert the first time, look at the promises that God pledges for her son, Ishmael. Then look at how God renews those promises to her when Abraham and Sarah drive them into the desert the second time, when Ishmael is a boy. The content of those promises: Ishmael will be a great nation, he will be fertile and father many nations, he will live up against his brother (Isaac) and his hand will be against all around him. Look at the Arabs and their history: God fulfills his promises. All of them. The Jews being in Israel is not a reactivation of the Sinai covenant. It is the continued fulfillment of the covenant between God and Abraham. What did God promise Abraham? That his heirs would occupy that land. And they do. Jews are his heirs, through Isaac. So are Arabs, through Ishmael. They occupy that land, living cheek to jowl, with Ishmael living among Israel's tents, and Ishmael's hand is against Isaac still. Both covenants are still being fulfilled. The Sinai covenant promised the Hebrews a farm in Israel if they kept all the commandments. It promised them war and misery and loss if they didn't keep all the commandments. They don't keep all the commandments - they don't even get close. So, as heirs of Abraham they live in the land, per the covenant with Abraham. And so do the Arabs, as heirs of Abraham and of Ishmael. And the Arabs' hand is against the Jews. And those covenants are respected. But the Sinai covenant? Where are the daily sacrifices? Where is the altar? Where is the atonement? The structure that God imposed is not respected or followed. And the covenant says that if the Hebrews don't follow it, they will be driven out and hounded. Which happened. In his last week, Jesus pronounced the fate of the vineyard's tenants. It happened the way he said, and the particular WAY in which God destroyed Israel made it such that the Jews cannot reconstitute the Temple and its rites - which are mandatory parts of the Sinai Covenant to avoid the doom clauses that are also in that covenant - not without a divine intervention. There are lots of Jews back in Israel (they never fully left). And that is what we would expect, given the covenant with Abraham. Arabs too. We'd also expect that, for the same reason (they're also heirs of Abraham). They don't get along (except for Christian Arabs), and this is what we'd expect from the covenant with Ishmael. It's true: God's covenants are working their way along, and the Jews are in Israel under a covenant. But it's not the one you think. Under the one they're there under, they're guaranteed to be in the land, yes, but they're also guaranteed to be constantly struggling with Ishmael. The only covenant that can short-circuit THAT is Christ's. Few Arabs and fewer Jews come to THAT. Those who do are reunited as brothers between themselves and with all other Christians. That's the outcome God desires. To reinvigorate the Sinai Covenant would require obeying it, and the Jews not only DON'T, they CAN'T. God removed the ability to do it when he took away the vineyard.
I accept that explanation.
And you see Jesus on at least three occasions specifically referring to the miracles he had just performed (or was about to) as the REASON that people should believe he was the Son, sent with authority. The Greek NT word pistes means more trust in the English. It is a word that can be modified in meaning based on context. It would be contradictory for Jesus to be urging faith and having Thomas seek confirmation by probing the nail hole wounds. It would have made sense to that era's Greek speakers how "pistes" would be understood.
Replacement Theology is false. As one rebuttal, read the Book of Romans. Says who? Protestants? In any case replacement theology is the wrong word for it - the NT alludes to a grafted branch. The root of the vine exists but produces no fruit or bitter fruit on the atrophied vine. See Vic's explanation at #12.
Ping to 12 and 21
Sometimes the best option is just too inconvenient for mankind.
"For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ." (John 1:17)
Well, the Holy Bible tells us so. The verse regarding the grafting in doesn't say the Jews were grafted out. It simply means that another branch was added. Did you know that the Book of Romans tells us that the nation of Israel will be saved as God's Covenant with Israel promised. Also, the Holy Bible tells us that God states that anyone who blesses Israel will be blessed and anyone who condemns Israel will be condemned. It doesn't say the same thing about the Muslims. The Bible does say that God will destroy the Islamic Armies in the last days when they attack Israel. Replacement Theology simply means that the Christians have replaced the Jews in God's Covenant with the Jews. Do you want to talk about God's plans for Israel and the Christians during the 1,000 years reign following the Tribulation period?
Ishmael's decendents are extremely numerous, a great nation, now. Ishmael and his descendents have turned their hands toward others and vice versa. God does keep His promises. I see nothing in your references that state anything else. In fact, the Muslims number over a billion people. Where did you get anything about the Israelites will live in peace when they leave the descendents of Ishmael alone?
Are you getting this stuff from the Koran by any chance? The Anti-Christ will commit an abomination in the Jewish Temple in the last days. That will happen midway through the Tribulation. That means the Jewish Temple will be rebuilt. When God destroys the Islamic Armies,it will be quite easy for the Jews to rebuild their Temple.
Islam is not mentioned in the bible at all. In any case, Orthodox Christians of the east have no terminology for "replacement aka suppression theology" this is an argument with concepts that Western Christians argue over that are not applicable to eastern Christians. The Church is the continuation of Israel and now includes ALL people. It goes beyond what it was; it does not replace what was before. John 10:16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. Isaiah 56:8 The Sovereign LORD declares-- he who gathers the exiles of Israel: "I will gather still others to them besides those already gathered. Romans 11:25 I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters, so that you will not feel proud about yourselves. Some of the people of Israel have hard hearts, but this will last only until the full number of Gentiles comes to Christ. It further gets complicated when God America's Christian Zionist use this concept to support their war views. In fact, I find the views of Orthodox Jews to be the best refutation of Christian Zionism (Zionism itself being an athiest secular Jewish idea) in that they declare that it was forbidden for the Jews to reconstitute Jewish rule in the Land of Israel before the arrival of the Messiah. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredim_and_Zionism
Islam is not mentioned in the Holy Bible, neither is the U.S. For that matter. But the geographical locales of the Armies are mentioned. You did know that, right?
The Church is the continuation of Israel? If you mean that tree includes Israel and the Christians, you are correct.
No. From the Scriptures. It's right there in plain sight.
“A man planted a vineyard, rented it to some farmers and went away for a long time. At harvest time he sent a servant to the tenants so they would give him some of the fruit of the vineyard. But the tenants beat him and sent him away empty-handed. He sent another servant, but that one also they beat and treated shamefully and sent away empty-handed. He sent still a third, and they wounded him and threw him out. Then the owner of the vineyard said, ‘What shall I do? I will send my son, whom I love; perhaps they will respect him.’ But when the tenants saw him, they talked the matter over. ‘This is the heir,’ they said. ‘Let’s kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.’ 15 So they threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? 16 He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others. When the people heard this, they said, “God forbid!” Jesus looked directly at them and asked, “Then what is the meaning of that which is written: ‘The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone’? Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed.” - Jesus (Luke 20) “A man planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a pit for the winepress and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. At harvest time he sent a servant to the tenants to collect from them some of the fruit of the vineyard. 3 But they seized him, beat him and sent him away empty-handed. Then he sent another servant to them; they struck this man on the head and treated him shamefully. He sent still another, and that one they killed. He sent many others; some of them they beat, others they killed. He had one left to send, a son, whom he loved. He sent him last of all, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ But the tenants said to one another, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.’ So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard. What then will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others. Haven’t you read this passage of Scripture: ‘The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes’?” - Jesus (Mark 12) However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come on you and overtake you: You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country. Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed. The fruit of your womb will be cursed, and the crops of your land, and the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks. You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out. The Lord will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him. The Lord will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess. The Lord will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish. The sky over your head will be bronze, the ground beneath you iron. The Lord will turn the rain of your country into dust and powder; it will come down from the skies until you are destroyed. The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You will come at them from one direction but flee from them in seven, and you will become a thing of horror to all the kingdoms on earth. 26 Your carcasses will be food for all the birds and the wild animals, and there will be no one to frighten them away. The Lord will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, festering sores and the itch, from which you cannot be cured. The Lord will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind. At midday you will grope about like a blind person in the dark. You will be unsuccessful in everything you do; day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you. You will be pledged to be married to a woman, but another will take her and rape her. You will build a house, but you will not live in it. You will plant a vineyard, but you will not even begin to enjoy its fruit. 31 Your ox will be slaughtered before your eyes, but you will eat none of it. Your donkey will be forcibly taken from you and will not be returned. Your sheep will be given to your enemies, and no one will rescue them. 32 Your sons and daughters will be given to another nation, and you will wear out your eyes watching for them day after day, powerless to lift a hand. A people that you do not know will eat what your land and labor produce, and you will have nothing but cruel oppression all your days. 34 The sights you see will drive you mad. 35 The Lord will afflict your knees and legs with painful boils that cannot be cured, spreading from the soles of your feet to the top of your head. The Lord will drive you and the king you set over you to a nation unknown to you or your ancestors. There you will worship other gods, gods of wood and stone. You will become a thing of horror, a byword and an object of ridicule among all the peoples where the Lord will drive you. You will sow much seed in the field but you will harvest little, because locusts will devour it. 39 You will plant vineyards and cultivate them but you will not drink the wine or gather the grapes, because worms will eat them. You will have olive trees throughout your country but you will not use the oil, because the olives will drop off. You will have sons and daughters but you will not keep them, because they will go into captivity. 42 Swarms of locusts will take over all your trees and the crops of your land. The foreigners who reside among you will rise above you higher and higher, but you will sink lower and lower. They will lend to you, but you will not lend to them. They will be the head, but you will be the tail. All these curses will come on you. They will pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the Lord your God and observe the commands and decrees he gave you. They will be a sign and a wonder to you and your descendants forever. Because you did not serve the Lord your God joyfully and gladly in the time of prosperity, 48 therefore in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and dire poverty, you will serve the enemies the Lord sends against you. He will put an iron yoke on your neck until he has destroyed you. The Lord will bring a nation against you from far away, from the ends of the earth, like an eagle swooping down, a nation whose language you will not understand, a fierce-looking nation without respect for the old or pity for the young. They will devour the young of your livestock and the crops of your land until you are destroyed. They will leave you no grain, new wine or olive oil, nor any calves of your herds or lambs of your flocks until you are ruined. 52 They will lay siege to all the cities throughout your land until the high fortified walls in which you trust fall down. They will besiege all the cities throughout the land the Lord your God is giving you. Because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege, you will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the Lord your God has given you. Even the most gentle and sensitive man among you will have no compassion on his own brother or the wife he loves or his surviving children, and he will not give to one of them any of the flesh of his children that he is eating. It will be all he has left because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of all your cities. The most gentle and sensitive woman among you—so sensitive and gentle that she would not venture to touch the ground with the sole of her foot—will begrudge the husband she loves and her own son or daughter the afterbirth from her womb and the children she bears. For in her dire need she intends to eat them secretly because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of your cities. If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name—the Lord your God— the Lord will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses. He will bring on you all the diseases of Egypt that you dreaded, and they will cling to you. The Lord will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed. You who were as numerous as the stars in the sky will be left but few in number, because you did not obey the Lord your God. Just as it pleased the Lord to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess. Then the Lord will scatter you among all nations, from one end of the earth to the other. There you will worship other gods—gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your ancestors have known. Among those nations you will find no repose, no resting place for the sole of your foot. There the Lord will give you an anxious mind, eyes weary with longing, and a despairing heart. You will live in constant suspense, filled with dread both night and day, never sure of your life. In the morning you will say, “If only it were evening!” and in the evening, “If only it were morning!”—because of the terror that will fill your hearts and the sights that your eyes will see. The Lord will send you back in ships to Egypt on a journey I said you should never make again. There you will offer yourselves for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but no one will buy you. - Deuteronomy 28 "The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard him say it. ... When evening came, Jesus and his disciples[e] went out of the city. In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots. Peter remembered and said to Jesus, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!” - Mark 11 ”May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered. - Jesus (Matthew 21:13) "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. Look, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’" - Jesus (Matt 23) The covenants with Noah, Abraham and Ishmael were unconditional, and their terms remain. The covenant with the Hebrews at Sinai was always conditional. Deuteronomy 28 spells out the terms of destruction if the Hebrews DON'T keep God's law. They did not. Jesus pronounces the final sentence in the week that he proclaims the new covenant. And he says to Jewish Jerusalem: YOU WILL NOT SEE ME AGAIN UNTIL YOU SAY 'BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD.' It's over. The Sinai covenant IS in force, insofar as the condemnation to destruction contained within it, elaborated in Deuteronomy 28, was carried out when God destroyed the Temple. The tenants were thrown out of the vineyard and it was given over to others, because they killed the Son of the owner. So God offered a NEW covenant, to the whole world. “The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come. Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’ But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6 The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. So go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.’ So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, the bad as well as the good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests." - Jesus Matthew 22. "It is finished." - Jesus, on the Cross, just before his death. It is FINISHED. The Covenant of Sinai cannot be resurrected. The Temple is gone. The priestly line is gone and cannot be identified. All is gone. The vineyard was trampled down by God and handed over to others. The original invitees did not come to the feast, so the Master destroyed their city and invited new guests. That's the way of it. Isaac and Ishmael live in the land, as promised, and they fight, as promised. And the key to peace lies only in the Son of God and his new covenant. The convenant of Sinai cannot be followed even if one wants to. God removed certain preconditions necessary to make it POSSIBLE to follow it. Now, it's Jesus or it's nothing.
Well, I will try to respond to this post when I work up the motivation to read all of it.
Eschatology seems to be the most divisive subject among Christians. I'm speaking mainly from a Protestant/Baptist/Evangelical perspective. That says something. I am also familiar with Catholic views and they are as numerous as the Protestant views. My Catholic family members are more dispensational than I am which surprised me a bit. I have seen views like Vics as well which is more of a traditional millennial view. Meaning you see a physical kingdom after Christ returns but it is the church. My point is even in the Catholic church there is not one infallible interpretation of future prophecy fulfillment other than what is addressed in creed with the physical second coming of Christ and His eternal Kingdom. The CCC gives Catholics wide latitude on personal views of eschatology as long as they keep to the creed and councils. Every Christian agrees on that with the exception of a small minority called full preterism. Don, I don't believe from his comments in the past believes the Bible tells us to engage in endless wars for or with Israel and base our foreign policy on a theological theory. He has stated the Abrahamic covenant is not conditional and we are to bless and pray for the physical descendants of Abraham with the promise. As we are to pray for the grafted in spiritual descendants through Christ. If I have the views accurate let me know and we can proceed and then I will offer my thoughts. I would caution straw men abound in these discussions and recommend we avoid them. Thanks.
"For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ." (John 1:17)
Yes, God's people are His regardless of any outside influence.
Ok, my eyes are going out to lunch, I suppose. Would you help me out by telling me where to look in the Scriptures?
Look in Genesis in the two places where Hagar flees or is put out into the desert. First, when she is pregnant. Second, when Abraham thrusts here and Isaac out with just a water skin. Both times, she, or she and the boy, are ready to die. Both times God saves her, and gives her a promise for Ishmael that echoes the sorts of promises that God gives to Abraham and to Isaac: greatness, many kings; and also the specific bit about how Ishmael (perhaps through his seed) will dwell up against his brothers and his hand will be against everybody. God promises greatness, fecundity, and trouble for Abraham's other descendants from Ishmael. We certainly see that working its way through history and today. Abraham's heirs occupy the land,. They're as numerous as the stars you can count. And they don't get along all that well. Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.
You are reading too much into the promises that God gave her.
No, I am reading exactly what God said: Ishmael will be great. His seed will be great. Kings will come from him. He will live beside his brothers, and he hand will be against all. These are promises of the same order as those given to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And God has carried out those promises every bit as faithfully and fully as he did the promises to Isaac and Jacob. Ishmael, of course, is part of Abraham's legacy - God promised Abraham that his seed would fill that land. And it did, through Isaac, and also through his firstborn, Ishmael. God's promises are God's promises. The judgments of the Lord are true, and righteous altogether. And seeing the petty brutality and threat to her and her child's life that Hagar endured twice from Abraham and Sarah, it is unsurprising, it is just, that God should make the point of putting some bitterness in Abraham's drink for this. Abraham should not have listened to his wife when twice she counselled bad things, But he did, and the consequences flowed, and God made sure that those consequences were recorded for all time. Just as God fulfilled the promise to Isaac, he fulfilled it also to Ishmael. It's in the Scripture, very clearly, and the shadow of it is written across Middle Eastern history.
What is really happening is not that I am reading too much into it. I am reading what God said, seeing why, and looking at what happened, and seeing how God is true to his word. Rather, what is happening is that you never noticed this before or thought about it. You have read so much into God's favor for Israel, that you failed to notice the qualifiers. You did not notice the whole chapter in Deuteronomy in which God, through Moses, tells the tale of the destruction of the Jews and their punishment for not obeying all of his commandments. You have never connected Jesus' final condemnation of the Temple, and God's destruction of it forever, with God's promise to do just exactly that, given through Moses, if the Israelites strayed from God. They did. He was long-suffering and patient, but once he sent his son and his son was killed, that was the end: tenants destroyed, vineyard handed over, just as Moses revealed all the way back at the beginning of the story. You haven't seen that before, because you are very enamored of Israel. You've read the interim prophets and the interim victories and seen the promises of restoration, and from this, you've overlooked the permanent burdens that God also placed on the descendants of Isaac and Jacob. You know that the Arabs, with their eventual Islam, are descendants of Ishmael, and you know their hostility to Israel. And you read the interim prophesies. So you're full over for Israel. Upon seeing that God also made promises AGAINST the peace and stability of Israel, you're uncertain. It CAN'T be true! It's not your doctrine, but it IS the Scripture. When God made Israel, he made it "olam va'ed" - "to the distant horizon". Not forever. He set the conditions of its destruction also: disobedience. He gave Israel many chances, but the chances ran out when he sent his son and they killed him like another rejected prophet.
I find that comment hilariously ironic for someone who makes a lot about a promise to the other side of the same family tree.
Can you elaborate?
I don't look at one set of verses when there are others that support the position.
It is self evident.
Ok, you can't elaborate. It is bedtime. Goodnight.
There will not be a single muslim in Heaven.
Nobody is going to be in heaven. Heaven is ouranos, the sky. Men do not go to dwell in the sky. Rather, when men die, they descend into Hades/Sheol, which is divided into Gehenna - a parched place of suffering - and Gan Eden, which is Paradise. Then the end of the world comes, and the world is wiped away and is no more, and a new world begins. The City, New Jerusalem, comes down OUT OF the sky TO the Earth. Hades is emptied of all of its spirits, and they all rise again, resurrected. All live again - good and evil, wicked and blessed. They proceed before the judgment seat and are judged by their deeds. Those who pass judgment, who are found written in the Book of Life, get to go on living. They walk into the City of God, which is sitting on the earth, through one of the 12 gates of pearl. Those who fail judgment are thrown bodily into the Lake of Fire, the second death. None of this happens in the sky. Nobody goes to Heaven. When we die now, we go down into Hades. When we are resurrected later, we walk into the gates of the City, which has come down to Earth. There won't be a single Muslim in Heaven. There won't be any Christians up there either. As far as the City of God goes, each man will be judged by his deeds, as Jesus said. It's up to him who goes into the City, not me. None comes to the Father except through him.
Does He have to appear on a cloud and throw lightening bolts before people will believe?
#11. To: Don (#4)
God has made a covenant with Israel and it is He who will destroy the Muslims when they attack Israel.
#12. To: Pericles (#5)
That covenant no longer applies to Jews but to the Church in Jesus.
#13. To: TooConservative (#10)
(Edited)
necessary role of faith
#14. To: TooConservative (#6)
You'll notice that Israel doesn't rely on supernatural defenses.
#15. To: TooConservative (#10)
By the time of the New Testament, you see multiple mentions of those who would not believe without a sign or wonder to confirm it and the necessary role of faith.
#16. To: Vicomte13 (#11)
God ALSO made a covenant with Ishmael, that promises that the Israelites will never have peace and security in that land unless they deal squarely with the Arabs, for God has promised that Ishmael will always be among the tents of Isaac, and will always have his hand against him.
#17. To: Vicomte13 (#12)
#18. To: A K A Stone (#0)
#19. To: rlk, Stoner (#2)
He's bolstering a jihadist army.
#20. To: Liberator (#19)
" He's bolstering a jihadist army.
#21. To: Don (#17)
(Edited)
You do know that the Islamic religion is a false one, don't you? The Israelites are back in the land that God gave to them and that includes all of Jerusalem.
#22. To: Vicomte13 (#12)
#23. To: Vicomte13, TooConservative (#15)
By the time of the New Testament, you see multiple mentions of those who would not believe without a sign or wonder to confirm it and the necessary role of faith.
#24. To: Don (#8)
(Edited)
#25. To: redleghunter (#21)
#26. To: Vicomte13 (#12)
The best option: take Jesus' new convent, get eternal life, and live with your brothers in peace.
#27. To: Pericles (#24)
Says who?
#28. To: Vicomte13 (#21)
#29. To: Vicomte13 (#12)
God's covenant with Ishmael means that the Jews never get to WIN.
#30. To: Don, Vicomte13 (#27)
(Edited)
The Bible does say that God will destroy the Islamic Armies in the last days when they attack Israel.
#31. To: Pericles (#30)
#32. To: Pericles (#30)
#33. To: Don (#29)
Are you getting this stuff from the Koran by any chance?
#34. To: Don, redleghunter (#32)
#35. To: Vicomte13 (#34)
#36. To: Vicomte13, Don (#34)
#37. To: redleghunter (#36)
#38. To: Vicomte13 (#33)
#39. To: Don (#38)
#40. To: Vicomte13 (#39)
#41. To: Don (#40)
#42. To: Don (#40)
#43. To: Don, Vicomte13 (#40)
You are reading too much into the promises that God gave her
#44. To: Pericles (#43)
#45. To: Vicomte13 (#42)
#46. To: Don (#44)
#47. To: Pericles (#46)
#48. To: Vicomte13 (#41)
#49. To: A K A Stone (#48)
There will not be a single muslim in Heaven.
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