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Title: Should Christians Be Hospitable to Cult Members?
Source:
Grace to You
URL Source: http://www.gty.org/resources/bible- ... ble-to-cult-members?Term=cults
Published: Mar 11, 2015
Author: John MacArthur
Post Date: 2015-03-11 16:41:49 by redleghunter
Keywords: None
Views: 40548
Comments: 144
In verse 10 John sets out one practical application of how to defend the truth: If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house. Hospitality for traveling teachers was common in the culture (cf. Luke 9:1-6; 10:1-12). The prohibition here is not to turn away the ignorant; it does not mean that believers may not invite unbelievers—even those who belong to a cult or false religion—into their midst. That would make giving the truth to them difficult, if not impossible. The point is that believers are not to welcome and provide care for traveling false teachers, who seek to stay in their homes, thereby giving the appearance of affirming what they teach and lending them credibility John’s use of the conjunction ei (if) with an indicative verb indicates a condition that is likely true. Apparently, the lady to whom he wrote had for whatever reason, in the name of Christian fellowship, already welcomed false teachers into her home. It was just such compassionate, well-meaning people that the false teachers sought out (cf. 2 Tim. 3:6); since churches were supposed to be protected by elders who were skilled teachers of the Word (1 Tim. 3:2; Titus 1:9), they should have been less susceptible to the lies propagated by the deceivers. Having established themselves in homes, the false teachers hoped eventually to worm their way into the churches. It is much the same today, as false teaching insidiously invades Christian homes through television, radio, the Internet, and literature. So threatening are these emissaries of Satan that Jo[h]n went on to forbid even giving them a greeting; for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds. Irenaeus relates that the church father Polycarp, when asked by the notorious heretic Marcion, “Do you know me?” replied, “I do know you—the firstborn of Satan” (Against Heresies, 3.3.4). John himself once encountered Cerinthus (another notorious heretic) in a public bathhouse in Ephesus. Instead of greeting him, however, John turned and fled, exclaiming to those with him, “Let us fly, lest even the bath-house fall down, because Cerinthus, the enemy of the truth, is within” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3.3.4).
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#1. To: liberator, A K A Stone, GarySpFc, TooConservative, Don, BobCeleste, out damned spot (#0)
PING
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23)
The Amish and Mennonites never knock on my door.
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23)
What about Quakers or Hare Krishna? Who is a cult?
Years ago, I had Jehovah's Witnesses come to my house, while my wife & I were carrying groceries in, while it was raining. They followed me up & down the stairs, back & forth from the front door to the car. I tried to be polite & cordial. But they would not leave. I told them we already belonged to a church. When they asked which one, I told them we were Jewish. They looked at me like I had told them I was satan, and left abruptly. I did this because of a story a State Trooper friend told me. he did the same thing, except he told them he was an atheist. The next day, got a call from Post to get home quick. When he got home, there were about 50 in his front yard, hold some kind of deal to save him. he had to threaten to take them all to jail to get them to leave, lol.
Si vis pacem, para bellum
Wow, pretty cultish.
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23)
Oh you wanted a definition. A cult is a religious group (but do not have to be religious) that follows a particular theological system. From the view of Christianity a cult distorts the doctrines that affect salvation sufficiently to cause it to be unattainable. For example, it is an essential doctrine of Christianity that there is only one God (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6; 44:8; 45:5) and that believing in a false God brings judgment (Exodus 20:1-6). If a group were to affirm that there is more than one God (i.e., Mormonism), then it would violate an essential doctrine and be outside the Christian faith. Another essential would be that Jesus is God in flesh (John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9) and that to deny it means a person will die in his sins, John 8:24. The Jehovah's Witnesses deny Christ's deity and are, therefore, not Christian.
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23)
Yikes.
Well without casting stones, the problem is that there's no consensus among the various mainstream Christian denominations as to what those doctrines are. Whenever you start discussing the differences between denominations, the battle lines are quickly drawn as to whose details are "true" and whose are heresy or apostasy.
I didn't know there were Amish were you lived, Southern Baptist yes, Amish no. :) Around me the Amish are only about 50 miles or so away.
“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”
What is your religion? That would be a cult. Any religion that denies christ is a cult.
When I was stationed in England I had them walk right in the side door without knocking or announcing their presence. Needless to say they didn't get a rousing welcome from me.
“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”
You do know he's a Leftard don't you?
“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”
I'm Roman Catholic. So what is your religion?
On three conditions. First that they are able articulate their faith, second that they prepare by getting familiar with the doctrine and errors of a particular cult. Third that they are ready to be charitable, respectful and humble.
Catholics pray to Mary. That is forbidden. They call the pope holy father. The Bible says not to do that. The Catholics took one of the commandments and threw it in trash. Then split another into two parts. There are Catholics that are saved. But it has a cult element to it.
So you're anti-Catholic... that doesn't surprise me at all.
The man did a fine job.
I'm not anti catholic. They just don't follow the Bible literally. Which is a problem. My religion is the Bible. Like King James for example.
Communists, Socialists, Progressives -- any belief system that views government employees as collectively smarter than everyone else is a cult.
It is also forbidden to pray out loud while making a spectacle of yourself in public. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. -- Mathew 6:6 PRAISE THE LORD PRAISE THE LORD, HALLELUJAH -- sinful...
Does that include prayer in church? Or just private prayer?
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. -- Mathhew 6:5 It's pretty clear to me...
Question: "If Jesus condemned the Pharisees for praying out loud, should we pray aloud?" Answer: There are several references in the New Testament to public prayers that are unacceptable, and it is true that Jesus condemned the Pharisees’ manner of praying. But Jesus Himself prayed out loud on occasion (see John 17), as did the apostles (Acts 8:15; 16:25; 20:36). Acts 1:14 says, "They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers." Then in verse 24, the apostles prayed together to choose someone to fill Judas' spot among the twelve. They were clearly praying together and out loud. So, the sin was not in the public nature of the prayer or the fact that people could hear it. In Luke 18:10-14, Jesus gives this parable: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people— robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’ But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.” Notice that the tax collector also prayed aloud, but his prayer was from a humble heart, and God accepted it. The sin of the Pharisees was not public prayer but a haughty spirit. Later, Jesus says, "Beware of the scribes, who like to walk around in long robes, and love greetings in the marketplaces and the best seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at feasts, who devour widows’ houses and for a pretense make long prayers. They will receive the greater condemnation" (Luke 20:46-47). Here the sin is not the audible nature of the prayer but its pretentiousness. Jesus condemns the hypocrisy of pretending to have a relationship with God while oppressing the very people He loves. Then in Matthew 6:5, Jesus says, "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full." Again, Jesus is not condemning the fact that people prayed aloud, but that they were putting on a public display for their own benefit. Their motive—to be seen of men—was the problem. Such prayer is not real prayer, but empty words meant for the ears of other people (Hebrews 10:22). Proverbs 15:29 says, "The LORD is far from the wicked but he hears the prayer of the righteous." In Ephesians 5:20, Paul instructs the church to "give thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ." Communal prayer is one way a local church worships God and encourages one another. What Jesus condemns is arrogance and hypocrisy. For someone who is clearly disobedient to God to lead a public prayer as though he or she had much to brag about is the kind of hypocrisy that Jesus denounced. To use public prayer as a means of showing off or impressing others is wrong. But sincere prayer from a humble heart is always welcomed by God and can be an encouragement to those who hear it (Psalm 51:17). Read more: www.gotquestions.org/pray...t- loud.html#ixzz3U7fPa3lI
There are Christian cults that don't deny Christ. Most of the ancient heresies that pop up again and again are connected with whether Christ had one body or two or one spirit or two. A lot of mischief arose over the roles of the Persons of the Trinity in relation to each other. This is a nice page at ChurchHistory101.com that briefly describes the major ancient heresies. They make a short mention of Marcion. He became a teacher and produced the first major version of the bible that was widely available. It consisted only of Paul's epistles and the book of Luke. And no mentions of hell at all. It proved so popular at the time that it actually led to the church establishment of the era to adopt the canon of scripture we still use today following the list first circulated by Athanasius, a hero of the fight against Arianism heresy. (Arianism insisted that Christ was not eternal but was created by the Father.) Anyway, this is how we got the bibles we have because the bishops finally realized that someone had to produce an official recognized canon of books. Lots of heretical books were floating around at the time, phony religious texts like the Gospel of Judas and hundreds of others. Gary is a real expert at this stuff, has really impressive resources. It often surprises me that people don't find this stuff as fascinating as I do but I guess it's pretty ancient news so it's considered dull. Yet, these same heresies pop up century after century in one form or another.
Following the Bible literally is itself problematic and misleading if passages are interpreted out of context. Song of Soloman 4:1~2 (KJV): Hair like a flock of goats?
As Jesus clearly stated in Mathhew 6, people who pray in public are mostly showing off to impress others. Sincere prayer comes from deep private and personal reflection that leads to repentance. Screaming PRAISE THE LORD in a room full people at a mega-church with a slicked back preacher and a rock band is a modern version of the hypocrits that Jesus condemned.
John Gill offers this commentary. You really should understand that there is no taking literally any work of ancient poetry, especially translated from another ancient language. If you read poetic works literally, you've kinda missed the point from the get-go. "leading to water early in the morning;" the Vulgate Latin version is, "that ascend from Mount Gilead", from a lower to a higher part of it; which is approved of by Bochart (u). Translation: even in ancient times, blondes had more fun. that are even shorn; on which no wool is left, sticking out here and there; which is another good property of teeth, that are of equal size and bigness, do not stand out, nor rise up one above another; and are as if they had been "cut and planed, and made alike" (y), as some render the word: which may denote the equality of Gospel ministers in power and authority; one having no superiority over another; all having the same mission and commission, employed in the same work, preaching the same Gospel; and though their gifts are different, yet there is a harmony and agreement in the doctrines they preach; which came up from the washing; white and clean, which is another property of good teeth; as the teeth of sheep be, and they themselves are, when just come up out of the washing pit: this may signify the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost, which are necessary to ministers of the word, in order to preach it; and more especially the purity of their lives and conversations, in which they should be examples to the flock; whereof everyone bear twins, and none is barren among them; the figures are just and beautiful; it is common with sheep to bear twins, or more, in the eastern countries, as the philosopher observes (z); frequent mention is made of goats bearing twins (a): these may answer to the two rows of teeth, and the word for "teeth" is in the dual number; and when these are white and clean, and equal, are well set, and not one wanting, none rotten, nor shed, nor fallen out, look very beautiful. Translation: chicks with white, even, clean teeth and no missing teeth are totally hot. Poetry is most often a series of word-pictures, used to evoke feelings, to cast words in a visual sense (instead of mere dry description). Poetry goes beyond works of persuasion or rote knowledge or logic or storytelling narratives. BTW, I'm not a big fan of poetry at all. I like the KJV for this passage because the translation shows italics wherever the translators inserted words that are not literal, to make it read better in English. But some passages in the bible actually read better in the KJV and this is an example of that. Read it, omitting the italics. It does read rather poetically. To me, the KJV is far more desirable in some passages of scripture. It conveys somewhat better the sense of the language. The translators had considerable literary talents they brought to bear on their translation.
Yes you do. The verses you mentioned are obviously not talking about teeth being a flock of sheep. The meaning is clear. I'm talking about people who don't take Genesis literally for example. Like probably you.
Sincere prayer comes from deep private and personal reflection that leads to repentance. Here is an example of Jesus praying out loud. So you are wrong. These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. 24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. 26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
Oh I certainly agree... nor would I expect them to grasp Carl Sagan's Cosmos & the Big Bang Theory and the billions of years that it actually took God to create the Universe...
I am most curious what you base that nonsense of billions of years on. Can you explain it or is it something that was spoon fed to you and you never questioned it? The decisions you have made in life have led you to where you are at today. If you had believed the good book and not discounted its teachings you wouldn't be a leftist today. Modify your beliefs. You will then make different decisions. Which will lead you out of the fog that leftists are invariably in.
Jesus is the Son of God who died on the cross to pay for our sins. He was spreading his message of repentance and forgiveness. It's fine and dandy to teach people of Jesus. In fact, we are commanded to do so. But true prayer is not public. It's private and personal between you and God. Yelling PRAISE THE LORD means nothing. It's just showing off to the people in your community.
Yeah, well I'm not very evangelical about it, so I'm not gonna try to convert you to my beliefs, just as I doubt that you'll make much headway trying to convert me...
Yeah it is hard to change someones deeply held long term beliefs. I believe if you took another look with an open mind. If possible. You could change your mind about billions of years.
Sure there are Willie. I just gave you the Scriptural principles held by all Christians. If they don't meet the criteria stated and claim they are Christian then that group is a cult. Now different denominations may claim others are in error, but won't kick them out the door or deny fellowship.
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23)
Yes he did.
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23)
It's pretty clear to me... So they are faux Christians in your view?
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23)
Yes the big three heresies we see today with regards to the Nature of God are a form of Arianism with the JWs, Oneness and even a modern tritheism.
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23)
Well yes in Scriptures there is the use of metaphorical language. Interpreting according to the grammatical, literal historical method is how the apostles approached interpreting Scriptures. When we do see metaphor used in Scriptures they are usually direct metaphors. That is "A" is like "B". For example Jesus saying He was the bread of life. We know Jesus did not mean He was a loaf of bread. The Living Water. We know Jesus is not literally a well full of water we physically drink. I am the door. Jesus is not a wooden door. These were direct metaphors used to teach a spiritual truth.
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23)
Yes my friend you put it well.
I can't look what is in their hearts. It's not for me to judge. I can only read that Jesus condemned certain pubic behavior as being inherently corrupt. I was raised that prayer is a personal and private matter. When you pray, it usually doesn't start as being a happy thing. True prayer involves sadness because you realize what a sinner that you are. True prayer results in being renewed, full of the Spirit who is there to keep you on the right path. People who run around screaming PRAISE THE LORD make me very uncomfortable. It's an alien form of Christianity that fails to recognize the horrible trials and tribulations that Jesus suffered. And I won't do it because I believe that Jesus condemns it.
You are confusing a poem like the Song of Solomon with God speaking plainly, Genesis.
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23)
You'll have to agree that this is a pretty catchy slogan.
I understand your reservations. I think the difference is the Pharisees would publicly show up when the market was busiest and pray at the offering of the morning and evening sacrifice. Which they knew would maximize their display of prayer for all to see. This was not only self centered but self righteousness. Jesus Christ pointed this out in the parable of the Pharisee and the Publican. Contrast this with the selfless and loving worship and public proclamation of the Gospel of Grace we see in Acts. The difference being the focus is on Christ and not self.
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23)
Osteen is a false prosperity gospel preacher.
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23)
Where I used to go to church. There was this fat woman. I didn't care for her much because of her attitude. But she would start saying stuff like scl scil la me nooo dooo all ddeee ruuf oorr allleemay. She said she was speaking in tongues. I think she was making it up and wanted to look spiritual to everyone.
The most sincere Christians I have ever met are people who hit the bottom of the barrel and had nowhere else to go. Drug addicts, alcoholics, prostitutes, violent criminals -- people who hit rock bottom and found Christ. Jesus himself hung out with such people. Hitting rock bottom is not a joyful thing. It's a painful experience that causes deep personal reflection. Many Americans all too frequently forget this. More later. Thanks for the discussion.
Like the the Bakkers and Jimmy Swaggart who all ran around PRAISING THE LORD. Oh, but your Church doesn't apply to Matthew 6. I hope that you are thoughtful enough to understand how this all looks to those who are outside the PRAISE THE LORD tradition. A slick haired preacher, a big mega-church... CHA CHING... RING UP THE BUCKS...
I kinda like the high-white sparkling, polished teeth and the sexy wives, myself. Wasn't Tammy Bakker a real looker?
I am not some 5000 year-old nomadic Jewish shepard boy. I'm a modern-day American who is well educated both in the fudamental tenets of my religious faith AND the scientific facts that reveals the mysteries of God's wonderous universe far beyond the comprehension level of illiterate, 5000-year-old-nomads. In revealing Genesis to those nomadic tribes, it wasn't God's purpose to educate them with a complex understanding of cosmology & astrophysics. Nor did he intend the Creation Story to include a detailed explanation of DNA/biochemistry/microbiology & evolution. The Bible and Modern Science are NOT incompatible.
Similarly, when God created the Universe, we know that a "day" didn't mean 24 hours from one sunrise to the next sunrise... but rather hundreds of millions and billions of years as the galaxies and stars and planets gradually unfolded & Life slowly evolved here on Earth.
I think she was making it up and wanted to look spiritual to everyone. And of course since you did not like her, she always had some bad omen for you that only she could know:)
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23)
What do you mean by that? Oh, I see, you mean the ones with teeth "like a flock of sheep that are even shorn, which came up from the washing; whereof every one bear twins, and none is barren among them."
The most sincere Christians I have ever met are people who hit the bottom of the barrel and had nowhere else to go. Drug addicts, alcoholics, prostitutes, violent criminals -- people who hit rock bottom and found Christ. Jesus himself hung out with such people. Hitting rock bottom is not a joyful thing. It's a painful experience that causes deep personal reflection. Many Americans all too frequently forget this. That is very true. Jesus came to heal the broken hearted and lost. In fact, we are all lost in one way or another. Hitting rock bottom, as you said, is horrible for someone to endure, but may just be the Grace God shows to a person to reveal freedom through Jesus Christ. Only Jesus Christ can break our bonds of sin and death. Hitting rock bottom in my observation is His Grace. People who plod on 'fat and happy' with the world and its traps and convince themselves they don't 'need' God or a Savior and they lift themselves up as their own god.
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23)
Our day or some undefined day in God's experience. Other scripture indicates that God does not experience a day in the way we do, like a thousand years being as a day to God. Reading about the seven days of creation as though they are 24-hour days on planet earth isn't demonstrably accurate. We like it but that doesn't mean that it is true.
Usually, the "prophet" requires an "interpreter" to tell you what they were babbling about. It's like a crazy mumbo-jumbo version of Simon Says.
Would your post fit on my license plate frame? Or a bumper sticker? IF it did, my car would be keyed in a parking lot in about 20 minutes. Self-proclaimed "gods" don't appreciate that type of "intolerance." ;-)
Willie, Vic has done some exhaustive studies on the above so I pinged him. After day 4, we can logically conclude all days were 24 hour days as the sun, moon and stars were created on day 4. However, even on the first day of creation there is "let there be light" and we see recorded "So the evening and the morning were the first day." We also see much later in Exodus the Israelites confirming a 6 day creation with a one day Sabbath. People like to add in billions of years to fit an unproven scientific theory. It usually makes them comfortable at cocktail parties with liberal atheists.
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23)
I'm calling BS, Choo-Choo Willie. You don't look a day over 4800 years-old.
It usually makes them comfortable at cocktail parties with liberal atheists. ZING! (My mind is still blown by so-called "intellectuals" who look in a mirror, examine life, then claim they need "evidence" of "God.")
It's that 2-pack-a-day habit I had for many years...
I can't look what is in their hearts. It's not for me to judge. Yet you are doing exactly THAT; JUDGING. SUGGESTION: Turn off your Tee-Bee. Stop re-interpreting the Bible. And give up on ever receiving your refund on that fifty bucks your sent Swaggart back in 1984. Not that *I* am judging *you.* (See how that works?)
Say hey -- the important thing is that you finally quit the smokes. And nowadays, all you need is a parrot on your shoulder, Dr. Hook! (*squawk* "BUILD THE TRAIN TRACKS AND THEY WILL COME!! ARRRRGH!!")
Of which you can then strike up a conversation with your would be vandals and show them: Isaiah 61 King James Version (KJV) 61 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23)
Actually, the creation account in Genesis is one that describes most directly the creation of earth and possibly major elements of our solar system. Genesis doesn't speak of other stars, other galaxies, and the wider universe. A real god of this universe would consider Earth a small operation among His vast holdings. Maybe along the lines of the regard you have for for a nice shrub or bush on your property. Jesus did say, "In my Father's house are many mansions"... Who (or what) are in all those other mansions? The Father may be operating on a scale unimaginably larger than we can conceive. Being a little contrarian at times, I always try to assume that He is. We can never make God too big but we often make Him too small.
I like buckeroo. I recall a memorable thread at 4um where the two of us valiantly defended the poor Israeli bulldozer that was so viciously attacked by that invader, Rachel Corrie.
Here is an example of Jesus praying out loud. So you are wrong.... 26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them. Good example.... And recall how Jesus taught the people how to pray to the Father....at His Sermon on the Mount? IN PUBLIC!! That Jesus -- wadda show-off!!
Maybe Isaiah 61: 1-2 could be the bumper-sticker on the right side of the rear bumper. Vandals and cowards aren't usually are caught in the act, or stick around too long :-)
No, the speed of light is a known constant, so the approximate size and age of the known Universe is readily calculable. The problem is that, 5000 years ago, nomadic Jewish shepherds didn't have the Internet or Wikipedia to look-up these scientific facts. They had to jot it all down in indecipherable hieroglyphics on crumbly parchment paper. Cripes, they even did it bass-ackwards right-to-left instead of writing it left-to-right like modern, civilized people do.
I forget why I got banned there... maybe for defending Goldi-Lox... but who knows? That water went over the dam long, long ago... But if you ever come across Jethro Tull, send him my regards... we didn't always see eye-to-eye (nobody ever does) but Jethro was always good for a civil, intelligent discussion.
Jesus got off on a technicality, having specifically warned them against rote recitations (like Our Fathers and Hail Marys to give an example that conveniently comes to mind). Very lawyerly instructions on how to pray. And despite His warnings against rote prayer, hundreds of millions of Christians use that specific prayer as a rote recital prayer, unaware of the irony.
On FR you were questioning Free Market cult.
You mean this McEarth may be one of God's tiny franchises?? Maybe God's written a "Genesis" account for billions of planets. With several billion VERY busy "Sons" serving and spreading the Gospel to Clingons and Romulans, etal. ("Hey! Where's MY Genesis??!?")
I know, I know. As the heretics like to say: "Prove from scripture that it isn't!". Don't strain your back gathering firewood and kindling for my upcoming auto-de-fé. Here's a lovely one from 1680, a full stadium event.
In revealing Genesis to those nomadic tribes, it wasn't God's purpose to educate them with a complex understanding of cosmology & astrophysics. Nor did he intend the Creation Story to include a detailed explanation of DNA/biochemistry/microbiology & evolution. The Bible and Modern Science are NOT incompatible. I think it's a shame that you have been duped by atheists into thinking that they are.
Very lawyerly instructions on how to pray. Chyeah -- like HE wuz soooo special?? Well, it's not as though Jesus instructed repetition in the 'Our Father.' (Unless of course as part of penance in the Confessional thru Father Flanagan.) As to a 'Hail Mary,' "Go looong! I'll hit you with a bomb, Homes!" Yes, "lawyerly," but The Mount was as public as can be (Jesus: "Is this mike on??") I'll provide other accounts: Mealtime Grace; Leading two or more in prayer. We discern between that and a peanut vendor at Yankee Stadium.
There's a loud mouth where I work always telling everyone else how much more 'Conservative' he is compared to the rest of us. FWIW all of us are military veterans, so of course the comments are not well taken. I'm thinking of getting magnet bumper stickers for his car. One with "COEXIST" and the other "Veterans for Obola." Do you think that would be uncharitable. I mean they are magnetic type stickers and not permanent:)
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23)
Do you have the audio?? (eyes straining) I can't tell if that's 1680's version of Jonathan Edwards OR Joel Osteen.
"Conservative" in what context?? I'm thinking of getting magnet bumper stickers for his car. One with "COEXIST" and the other "Veterans for Obola." Do you think that would be uncharitable. I mean they are magnetic type stickers and not permanent:) Oh, that's gonna leave a mark. (I approve ;-)
As opposed to promoting all the benefits of the Union-Commie Cult??
The problem is that, 5000 years ago, nomadic Jewish shepherds didn't have the Internet or Wikipedia to look-up these scientific facts. They had to jot it all down in indecipherable hieroglyphics on crumbly parchment paper. Cripes, they even did it bass-ackwards right-to-left instead of writing it left-to-right like modern, civilized people do. If that makes you feel better at cocktail parties, Willie, drive on. Creation was a miracle just as Christ fed the 5000 with a few fish and loaves. I will ask the question I normally do at this point. Are the miracles of Christ recorded in the Gospels and proclaimed in the NT epistles literal? Meaning did they happen as recorded in Scriptures?
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23)
Let's look at the source in Matthew 6 (KJV): 6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. 7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. 9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. Jesus instructs to pray in secret (not in groups reciting prayers) and to avoid rote prayers altogether. Modern Christians of almost every flavor disregard these clear commands from their Savior at least once a year and flaunt their defiance of Jesus in unity. Some of them wear Christian jewelry or T-shirts while doing it, also contrary to Christ's command on such public displays of self-righteous holiness in apparel.
He's a vocal fiscal conservative. Also a close the border conservative. Beyond that anything goes.
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23)
The Biblical tenants and science are incompatible when science contradicts the Holy Bible. Science is always contradicting itself. How often has science findings changed previous scientific findings?
Those cocktail parties are a little less smug than you imagine. Big Bang does have some problems and contradictions, the most glaring of which is its lack of explanation for what happened before the Big Bang. A rising theory is that the universe was never created at all and has existed from all eternity in largely the form it has today. While light matter and dark matter and their associated energy may alter over time, sometimes spectacularly, it doesn't change the overall eternal nature and composition of the universe. I actually like this better than Big Bang which I always found lacking.
You can find video clips on YouPope.com. Some guy from Rome. Like you didn't know that already, you imp.
What chapter and verse are you referencing in your statement about the Bible and apparel. I have no problem with wearing such T-Shirts as you mentioned. It is time that more people talk more about Christ.
I actually like this better than Big Bang which I always found lacking. Atheists are always looking for the next 'angle' to explain things they can't explain with real science. They will eventually embrace (some do now) some pagan pantheism to 'splain' things. Everything under the sun (or universe) other than a Sovereign and Eternal God. The notion of "everything has always been" meme is so detached of reason, logic and even common sense. As everything is in decay. If something has an end (which we can observe) it has a beginning (which we can observe as well through procreation). The sheer madness of their darkened pursuits of any explanation other than God is saddening.
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23)
Fundamentally, I remain an acolyte of the process of Continuous Improvement, and I beleive that Modern Science has a much better understanding of the Universe than the ancient nomadic tribes of the Middle East 5000 years ago.
#2. To: redleghunter (#0)
So who are you calling a cult?
Mormons?
Scientologists?
Branch Davidians?
Jehovah Witnesses?
Amish or Mennonites?
#3. To: Willie Green (#2)
Amish or Mennonites?
#4. To: redleghunter (#3)
(Edited)
The Amish and Mennonites never knock on my door.
Christian Scientists, Salvation Army, Rosicrucians, Unitarians or Wiccans?
#5. To: redleghunter (#3)
" The Amish and Mennonites never knock on my door. "
#6. To: Stoner (#5)
When he got home, there were about 50 in his front yard, hold some kind of deal to save him. he had to threaten to take them all to jail to get them to leave, lol.
#7. To: Willie Green (#4)
(Edited)
#8. To: Stoner (#5)
#9. To: redleghunter (#7)
From the view of Christianity a cult distorts the doctrines that affect salvation sufficiently to cause it to be unattainable.
#10. To: redleghunter (#3)
#11. To: Willie Green (#4)
(Edited)
Who is a cult?
#12. To: Stoner (#5)
Years ago, I had Jehovah's Witnesses come to my house, while my wife & I were carrying groceries in, while it was raining.
#13. To: A K A Stone (#11)
What is your religion? That would be a cult. Any religion that denies christ is a cult.
#14. To: A K A Stone (#11)
(Edited)
What is your religion? That would be a cult. Any religion that denies christ is a cult.
We usually capitalize the "c" in Christ, to indicate that we recognize that He is the Lord our God & Savior.
If I'm not mistaken, that is common practice in protestant denominations also.
Is it a cult?
#15. To: redleghunter (#1)
#16. To: Willie Green (#14)
#17. To: A K A Stone (#16)
But you didn't answer my question: what is your religion? Is it a cult?
#18. To: redleghunter (#1)
#19. To: Willie Green (#17)
So you're anti-Catholic... that doesn't surprise me at all. But you didn't answer my question: what is your religion? Is it a cult?
#20. To: Willie Green (#4)
(Edited)
Who is a cult?
#21. To: A K A Stone (#16)
Catholics pray to Mary. That is forbidden.
#22. To: cranko (#21)
But thou, when thou prayest
#23. To: A K A Stone (#22)
Does that include prayer in church? Or just private prayer?
#24. To: cranko (#23)
#25. To: A K A Stone, GarySpFc (#11)
Any religion that denies christ is a cult.
#26. To: A K A Stone (#19)
They just don't follow the Bible literally. Which is a problem.
1 Behold, thou art fair, my love; behold, thou art fair; thou hast doves' eyes within thy locks: thy hair is as a flock of goats, that appear from mount Gilead.
2 Thy teeth are like a flock of sheep that are even shorn, which came up from the washing; whereof every one bear twins, and none is barren among them.
Teeth like a flock of sheep?
No, no, no, no, no.... we do not take every word of the Bible literally. It must be read in it's proper context to be understood. The nomadic tribes of the Middle East were very simple people 3 to 5 thousand years ago. The Lord revealed His Word to them in ways that THEY could understand, so we need to strive to understand the way that THEY would understand it, not the way that WE would take it literally.
#27. To: A K A Stone (#24)
(Edited)
To use public prayer as a means of showing off or impressing others is wrong.
#28. To: Willie Green, A K A Stone, redleghunter (#26)
Hair like a flock of goats? Teeth like a flock of sheep? No, no, no, no, no.... we do not take every word of the Bible literally.
thy hair is as a flock of goats, that appear from mount Gilead.
that appear from Mount Gilead; or rather "on Mount Gilead", as Noldius: Gilead was a mountain in the land of Israel, beyond Jordan, famous for pasturage for cattle, where flocks of goats were fed, as was usual on mountains (s); and, being well fed, their hair was long, smooth, neat, and glistering; and so to spectators, at a distance, looked very beautiful and lovely; especially in the morning at sun rising, and, glancing on them with its bright and glittering rays, were delightful. So R. Jonah, from the use of the word in the Arabic language, which signifies the morning, interprets it, which "rise early in the morning"; and which, as Schultens (t) observes, some render, Thy teeth are like a flock of sheep that are even shorn, which came up from the washing; whereof every one bear twins, and none is barren among them.
Son 4:2 - Thy teeth are like a flock of sheep,.... That is, like the teeth of a flock of sheep; as her eyes were like the eyes of doves, and her hair like the hair of goats: and Galen long ago observed, that human teeth are much like the teeth of sheep, in figure, order, and structure, as well as are small and white; neatly set, innocent and harmless, not ravenous and voracious, cropping herbs and grass only (w); the whiteness of the teeth is chiefly intended, in which the beauty of them lies, for which they are sometimes compared (x) to Parian marble for whiteness. The Targum interprets these teeth of the priests and Levites; but it is much better to understand them of the ministers of the Gospel: teeth are bony, solid, firm, and strong, sharp to cut and break the food, and prepare it for the stomach: all which well agree with ministers; who are strong in the Lord, and in his grace, to labour in the word and doctrine; to oppose gainsayers, withstand Satan's temptations; bear the reproaches of the world, and the infirmities of weaker saints; and remain firm and unmoved in their ministry; unshaken by all they meet with, from without and from within: they are sharp to rebuke such who are unsound in the faith, or corrupt in their morals, and to penetrate into Gospel truths; to cut and rightly divide the word of truth, and break the bread of life to others, and so chew and prepare spiritual food for souls; not raw and crude; not hard and difficult of digestion, but plain and easy to be understood. And they are like to a flock of sheep,
Look, Willie, it's a translation of ancient tribal Hebrew poetry. Much as you find this passage obscure, these ancient Jews would not really grasp the poetic allusions and devices in Shakespeare's work any more readily. Son 4:1 Behold, thou art fair, my love; behold, thou art fair; thou hast doves' eyes within thy locks: thy hair is as a flock of goats, that appear from mount Gilead.
Son 4:2 Thy teeth are like a flock of sheep that are even shorn, which came up from the washing; whereof every one bear twins, and none is barren among them.
#29. To: Willie Green (#26)
No, no, no, no, no.... we do not take every word of the Bible literally.
#30. To: cranko (#27)
As Jesus clearly stated in Mathhew 6, people who pray in public are mostly showing off to impress others.
#31. To: TooConservative (#28)
Look, Willie, it's a translation of ancient tribal Hebrew poetry. Much as you find this passage obscure, these ancient Jews would not really grasp the poetic allusions and devices in Shakespeare's work any more readily.
But that's why we don't read Genesis literally... the ancient Jews were simple people, and God explained Creation to them in terms that they could understand.
#32. To: Willie Green (#31)
Theory and the billions of years that it actually took God to create the Universe...
#33. To: A K A Stone (#30)
Here is an example of Jesus praying out loud. So you are wrong.
#34. To: A K A Stone (#29)
I'm talking about people who don't take Genesis literally for example. Like probably you.
So that's why I seldom discuss this topic and try to stick to more secular issues: energy, transportation, education, economy, etc. etc.
#35. To: Willie Green (#34)
Yeah, well I'm not very evangelical about it, so I'm not gonna try to convert you to my beliefs, just as I doubt that you'll make much headway trying to convert me... So that's why I seldom discuss this topic and try to stick to more secular issues: energy, transportation, education, economy, etc. etc.
#36. To: Willie Green (#9)
Well without casting stones, the problem is that there's no consensus among the various mainstream Christian denominations as to what those doctrines are.
#37. To: Don (#18)
#38. To: cranko (#23)
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. -- Mathhew 6:5
#39. To: TooConservative (#25)
Yet, these same heresies pop up century after century in one form or another.
#40. To: Willie Green, A K A Stone (#26)
#41. To: redleghunter (#40)
We know Jesus did not mean He was a loaf of bread
#42. To: redleghunter (#38)
So they are faux Christians in your view?
#43. To: Willie Green (#31)
#44. To: redleghunter (#0)
#45. To: cranko, A K A Stone (#42)
#46. To: cranko (#44)
#47. To: redleghunter (#46)
#48. To: redleghunter (#45)
(Edited)
#49. To: redleghunter (#46)
(Edited)
Osteen is a false prosperity gospel preacher.
#50. To: cranko (#49)
A slick haired preacher, a big mega-church... CHA CHING... RING UP THE BUCKS...
#51. To: A K A Stone (#32)
I am most curious what you base that nonsense of billions of years on. Can you explain it or is it something that was spoon fed to you and you never questioned it?
The decisions you have made in life have led you to where you are at today. If you had believed the good book and not discounted its teachings you wouldn't be a leftist today.
Modify your beliefs. You will then make different decisions. Which will lead you out of the fog that leftists are invariably in.
I think it's a shame that you have been duped by atheists into thinking that they are.
#52. To: redleghunter (#40)
When we do see metaphor used in Scriptures they are usually direct metaphors. That is "A" is like "B". For example Jesus saying He was the bread of life. We know Jesus did not mean He was a loaf of bread. The Living Water. We know Jesus is not literally a well full of water we physically drink. I am the door. Jesus is not a wooden door. These were direct metaphors used to teach a spiritual truth.
#53. To: A K A Stone (#47)
But she would start saying stuff like scl scil la me nooo dooo all ddeee ruuf oorr allleemay. She said she was speaking in tongues.
#54. To: buckeroo, Willie Green (#50)
I kinda like the high-white sparkling, polished teeth...
#55. To: cranko, Vicomte13, liberator, TooConservative (#48)
#56. To: Willie Green (#52)
Similarly, when God created the Universe, we know that a "day" didn't mean 24 hours from one sunrise to the next sunrise...
#57. To: redleghunter (#53)
And of course since you did not like her, she always had some bad omen for you that only she could know:)
#58. To: redleghunter (#55)
Hitting rock bottom in my observation is His Grace. People who plod on 'fat and happy' with the world and its traps and convince themselves they don't 'need' God or a Savior and they lift themselves up as their own god.
#59. To: Willie Green, Vicomte13, A K A Stone, TooConservative (#52)
Similarly, when God created the Universe, we know that a "day" didn't mean 24 hours from one sunrise to the next sunrise... but rather hundreds of millions and billions of years as the galaxies and stars and planets gradually unfolded & Life slowly evolved here on Earth.
#60. To: Willie Green (#51)
I am not some 5000 year-old nomadic Jewish shepard boy.
#61. To: TooConservative, Gatlin (#54)
Yep, and every time I break wind from the
beans the sound it makes is: "Buckeroo."
#62. To: redleghunter (#59)
People like to add in billions of years to fit an unproven scientific theory.
#63. To: Liberator (#60)
I'm calling BS, Choo-Choo Willie. You don't look a day over 4800 years-old.
hopping around on one leg keeps me fit as a fiddle!
#64. To: cranko, redleghunter. (#42)
So they [those who pray in pubic] are faux Christians in your view?
#65. To: Willie Green (#63)
(Edited)
#66. To: Liberator, cranko (#58)
IF it did, my car would be keyed in a parking lot in about 20 minutes. Self-proclaimed "gods" don't appreciate that type of "intolerance."
#67. To: redleghunter, Vicomte13, Willie Green (#59)
People like to add in billions of years to fit an unproven scientific theory.
#68. To: Willie Green, buckeroo (#61)
Yep, and every time I break wind from the beans the sound it makes is: "Buckeroo."
#69. To: A K A Stone, cranko (#30)
#70. To: redleghunter (#66)
Of which you can then strike up a conversation with your would be vandals and show them...
#71. To: redleghunter (#59)
People like to add in billions of years to fit an unproven scientific theory.
#72. To: TooConservative (#68)
I recall a memorable thread at 4um where the two of us valiantly defended the poor Israeli bulldozer that was so viciously attacked by that invader, Rachel Corrie.
#73. To: Liberator (#69)
And recall how Jesus taught the people how to pray to the Father....at His Sermon on the Mount? IN PUBLIC!!
#74. To: Willie Green (#72)
I forget why I got banned there
#75. To: TooConservative, redleghunter, Vicomte13, Willie Green (#67)
A real god of this universe would consider Earth a small operation among His vast holdings.
#76. To: Liberator (#75)
You mean this McEarth may be one of God's tiny franchises??
#77. To: Willie Green (#51)
am not some 5000 year-old nomadic Jewish shepard boy. I'm a modern-day American who is well educated both in the fudamental tenets of my religious faith AND the scientific facts that reveals the mysteries of God's wonderous universe far beyond the comprehension level of illiterate, 5000-year-old-nomads.
#78. To: TooConservative, releghunter, CZ82 (#73)
Jesus got off on a technicality, having specifically warned them against rote recitations (like Our Fathers and Hail Marys to give an example that conveniently comes to mind).
#79. To: Liberator, TooConservative (#70)
Vandals and cowards aren't usually are caught in the act, or stick around too long :-)
#80. To: TooConservative (#76)
#81. To: redleghunter, TooConservative (#79)
There's a loud mouth where I work always telling everyone else how much more 'Conservative' he is compared to the rest of us. FWIW all of us are military veterans, so of course the comments are not well taken.
#82. To: A Pole, Willie Green (#74)
On FR you were questioning Free Market cult.
#83. To: Willie Green (#71)
No, the speed of light is a known constant, so the approximate size and age of the known Universe is readily calculable.
#84. To: Liberator, Vicomte13 (#78)
Yes, "lawyerly," but The Mount was as public as can be (Jesus: "Is this mike on??")
#85. To: Liberator (#81)
"Conservative" in what context??
#86. To: Willie Green (#51)
#87. To: redleghunter (#83)
If that makes you feel better at cocktail parties, Willie, drive on.
#88. To: Liberator (#80)
Do you have the audio??
(eyes straining) I can't tell if that's 1680's version of Jonathan Edwards OR Joel Osteen.
#89. To: TooConservative (#84)
#90. To: TooConservative, liberator (#87)
A rising theory is that the universe was never created at all and has existed from all eternity in largely the form it has today. While light matter and dark matter and their associated energy may alter over time, sometimes spectacularly, it doesn't change the overall eternal nature and composition of the universe.
#91. To: Don (#86)
The Biblical tenants and science are incompatible when science contradicts the Holy Bible. Science is always contradicting itself. How often has science findings changed previous scientific findings?
If you wish to remain stagnant in their archaic worldview, that is of course your perogative.
#92. To: redleghunter (#90)
I'll observe that the Genesis creation account does share a certain sudden poof-factor with the Big Bang theory. Both are of a sudden massive creation from nothing. So Big Bang is a lot of instant creationism (as with Genesis) but with no God involved. What if Genesis describes only the creation of our own planet and solar system and no more?
The notion of "everything has always been" meme is so detached of reason, logic and even common sense. As everything is in decay. If something has an end (which we can observe) it has a beginning (which we can observe as well through procreation).
#93. To: Willie Green (#91)
As ridiculous as your analogs among the evolutionists. Of course, this is sheer ignorance of what evolution really is. Devolution is just as possible (and likely) as evolution. Darwin certainly thought so and said so. It is the liberal types who like to believe that "everything is getting better in every way" who have mangled Darwin's work in this way. Gigantism is especially hated by Darwin and his elvish helpers.
I remain an acolyte of the process of Continuous Improvement...
#94. To: A Pole (#74)
I wasn't banned... I opused out when AssClown Robinson declared himself more "conservative" than Paul Weyrich and censored discussion of passenger rail issues because it was a subversive communist plot: Ten Reasons Why Conservatives should support transit Over 35 million Americans rely on some form of public tansportation to commute to work every weekday. That was my last post in the Echo Chamber...On FR you were questioning Free Market cult.
Trains Save Fuel
To: Jim Robinson
By Paul Weyrich and William S. Lind
If that makes them "marxist" in your worldview, then I suggest that you refrain from hanging out with the whacknut libertarians. They obviously have been a bad influence on you.
I don't kowtow to JimRob's abusive mind control.
If you want to talk about creepy cult leaders, you can't leave JimRob off the list.
#95. To: TooConservative (#93)
Don't go misinterpreting what I said. Just because I told you that I'm an acolyte of Continuous Improvement on this thread, don't go forgetting that I've also recently declared myself a firm believer in Murphy's Law: "If anything can go wrong, it will go wrong." That's why you have to constantly pursue Continuous Improvement: to prevent Entropy from destroying the Universe. In the engineering world, Entropy is the Evil One... Entropy is the Devil... Entropy is Satan..
Of course, this is sheer ignorance of what evolution really is. Devolution is just as possible (and likely) as evolution. Darwin certainly thought so and said so.
That's the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, dude... ENTROPY!!! The natural tendency of everything in the universe to go to hell in a handbag...
#96. To: Willie Green, TooConservative (#95) (Edited)
WHICH is exactly why Evolution can not be proven, but is impossible as well, while Devolution has been nature's/God's order of everything. From the moment of the Fall (at the behest of the Evil One), God's good earth and His material universe were designed....to erode, degrade, and die. ALL of it. It has an Expiration Date. Stephen King's Langoliers book/movie was sort of his take on this. You are both likely familiar with the experiments on accelerated fruit fly generations. In time scientists observed (to their utter dismay) that instead of evolving or strengthened the organism one iota, their DNA deteriorated. Ideas may "evolve," but not this material universe. Nor has it ever.
"If anything can go wrong, it will go wrong." That's the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, dude... ENTROPY!!! The natural tendency of everything in the universe to go to hell in a handbag...
#97. To: Willie Green (#95)
No, it isn't. The universe is not that fragile. We don't really know enough about the universe to make pompous proclamations. We greatly overestimate the extent of our knowledge.
That's why you have to constantly pursue Continuous Improvement: to prevent Entropy from destroying the Universe.
#98. To: TooConservative (#93)
Unless they were dinosaurs that lived "65 million years ago " as decreed by Science's Counsel of High Priests.
Gigantism is especially hated by Darwin and his elvish helpers.
#99. To: Liberator (#96)
Your remarks remind me a little of some of the ancient gnostics. How the material world was evil and corrupt, the idea that the Creator was corrupt and evil entity who different from the God of the NT. Not that I'm suggesting you are gnostic or any such thing. It is an interesting take, a markedly decadent universe. The flip side of the everything-is-getting-better-in-every-way progressive types.
From the moment of the Fall (at the behest of the Evil One), God's good earth and His material universe were designed....to erode, degrade, and die. ALL of it. It has an Expiration Date.
#100. To: Liberator (#98)
Many other species still with us today were much much larger in ancient times.
Unless they were dinosaurs that lived "65 million years ago " as decreed by Science's Counsel of High Priests.
#101. To: redleghunter, TooConservative, Don, Willie Green (#90)
They will eventually embrace (some do now) some pagan pantheism to 'splain' things. Everything under the sun (or universe) other than a Sovereign and Eternal God. Occam's Razor (in reverse.) Totally IL-logical. And ironic. Somehow, Science's Gospel of Dis-provable/Impossible Theory became the official religion of Atheism, Secular Humanism, and Trekkies. As a rhetorical aside, with respect to the inextricable implications of the Second Law of Thermodynamics, where has all the energy dissipated to since "On The First Day..."? Aaaah -- Entropy and the chaos of...Satan. As a related political aside -- 0bola, his regime, and his co-collaborators have done nothing but facilitate and accelerate the entropy of the state, while the Deists, Atheists, New Agers, homofascists, Islam, etal. have aided and abetted as well. Had Maxwell Smart only beaten KAOS back in the 60s....
Atheists are always looking for the next 'angle' to explain things they can't explain with real science.
#102. To: TooConservative (#99)
Don't know whether the ancient gnostics were whispered sweet rotten nothings into their ear, but Satan's MO has always been to serve up a bit of Truth with Lies. God is still blamed for all things that go bad, isn't He? It is an interesting take, a markedly decadent universe. The flip side of the everything-is-getting-better-in-every-way progressive types. I guess the "take" is a matter of history, Scripture, science (The Second Law of Thermodynamics), and math when it comes down to it. Yeah, it's mostly Progressive/Kumbaya-types who believe Mother Earth is a living breathing entity with a soul who just needs to be coddled, cuddled, and....worshiped. #FOREVER.
Your remarks remind me a little of some of the ancient gnostics. How the material world was evil and corrupt, the idea that the Creator was corrupt and evil entity who different from the God of the NT.
#103. To: Liberator (#101)
It just keeps expanding the Universe further and further apart until eventually it dissipates in the cold emptiness of infinity.
where has all the energy dissipated to since "On The First Day..."?
#104. To: TooConservative (#100)
Yup. Not gonna bore you with details, BUT....after The Great Flood, the earth changed dramatically (yes, I realize that theory will be challenged.) The sedentary fossils do provide that evidence of much larger creatures (yes, including T-Rex and Bronto-Burgers, who didn't quite make it :-(
Many other species still with us today were much much larger in ancient times.
#105. To: Willie Green (#103)
The "infinity" of Time or Space? Or both? MUST there necessarily be a scientific explanation for material effluent? THOUGHT: Could the material effluent well transition into another dimension beyond the material universe? After all, aren't our souls, our essence NOT of this material world?
....Eventually it dissipates in the cold emptiness of infinity.
#106. To: Liberator (#105)
I don't know...
I figger I'm gonna be worm food long before the Universe ends, so I don't fret about it much.
Besides... it sounds way too gloomy, dismal and lonely for me...
I'm kinda glad that I probably won't be around to see it.
#107. To: TooConservative, liberator, A K A Stone (#92)
That is possible. It depends on the historical context given in Moses time of this: Genesis 1: 14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. 17 God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 So the evening and the morning were the fourth day. Were the seasons measured just by our solar system heavenly bodies or were what they would consider the greater constellations created that same day as well? That can be an entry level consideration. Then again we have this...."He made the stars also."
What if Genesis describes only the creation of our own planet and solar system and no more?
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23)
#108. To: Liberator (#101)
:)
Had Maxwell Smart only beaten KAOS back in the 60s....
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23)
#109. To: Willie Green, liberator (#103)
Willie you like eco fast trains. Did they always exist? No, someone wrote the blueprints, gathered the materials, engineered the materials and built the trains. Someone designed everything we see.
It just keeps expanding the Universe further and further apart until eventually it dissipates in the cold emptiness of infinity.
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23)
#110. To: TooConservative, liberator, GarySpFc (#92)
Without a cause or prime mover.
So Big Bang is a lot of instant creationism
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23)
#111. To: redleghunter (#110)
Science can't deal with motives or matters for which it can derive no evidence. To put it in slanted terms, both Big Bang and creationism are varieties of the Big Poof. As opposed to this new theory of a truly static and eternal universe which we might call Stasis. Or the Big Theory of Same Old Same Old.
Without a cause or prime mover.
#112. To: Willie Green, Don, TooConservative, liberator (#91)
Fundamentally, I remain an acolyte of the process of Continuous Improvement...
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23)
#113. To: redleghunter (#59)
We can conclude they were solar revolutions, though perhaps not 24 hours. This is if we translate "or" as "light", and "Hhosekh" as "darkness", such that a "yom" - a "day" is a period of "light and darkness". However, "or" also means order. In fact, the word "order" comes from the Hebrew root "or", which is what God created first. Did he say "let there be 'light'"? No, he said "Yehyeh Or" - which can be just as accurately translated as "Order will be" as it is translated "Light will be". Breath and spirit are the same thing in Hebrew. So are Order and Light. The chaos is darkness, Hhoshekh, which God walls off with Order. So, is a "Yom" a period of Light and Darkness? Or is it a period of Order and Disorder? It is literally either one. The translator decides what he prefers. The language itself says both things simultaneously. Our ordered periods of light and dark are day and night, but even at night there is light, less of it. A literal read of Genesis can lead one to the traditional read, but it can also lead one to a very different comprehsion, of God imposing order, by his spirit, upon chaos, and bringing order up out of it. And that doesn't so much have to do with solar revolutions, even when solar revolutions are happening. What I am saying is that, actually, nobody gets a win on this. Literally it says both things, and the pictographs paint both things. The real truth is that God very probably uses light and darkness as visible symbols of what he is really doing, with order and chaos, energy and entropy, exactly as the poet uses fleece as symbols for white teeth, but even white teeth as a harbinger of the REAL essence of the poem, which is beauty and love. God is more intelligent than Einstein, and a better poet than Shakespeare. Usually he LITERALLY means two, or four, or fifteen separate things all at the same time, and all of them literally, which is why there were 12 Apostles and not just one Prophet.
After day 4, we can logically conclude all days were 24 hour days as the sun, moon and stars were created on day 4.
#114. To: Willie Green (#71)
Except that it has slowed down since the beginning.
No, the speed of light is a known constant
#115. To: TooConservative (#111)
Elton John is their mascot.
To put it in slanted terms, both Big Bang and creationism are varieties of the Big Poof.
#116. To: TooConservative (#97)
About sums it all up.
We greatly overestimate the extent of our knowledge.
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23)
#117. To: TooConservative (#92)
It doesn't even describe THAT. It describes their "FATTENING", their being ordered and filled up with things. And really, it's just the land that is spoken of. The stuff that goes on in the skies is only discussed insofar as throwing light upon the land of here.
What if Genesis describes only the creation of our own planet and solar system and no more?
#118. To: Liberator (#102)
Yeah, it's mostly Progressive/Kumbaya-types who believe Mother Earth is a living breathing entity with a soul who just needs to be coddled, cuddled, and....worshiped. #FOREVER.
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23)
#119. To: redleghunter (#79)
Do you think that would be uncharitable. I mean they are magnetic type stickers and not permanent:) It's be more charitable than the "Gay and Proud" bumper sticker that somehow, some way got stuck on the front bumper of a jackass dipwad of a Navy LCDR back in the mid-1980s.
I'm thinking of getting magnet bumper stickers for his car. One with "COEXIST" and the other "Veterans for Obola."
#120. To: redleghunter (#118)
Whoa, blue alien porn! SHOW US YOUR RETICULATING MEMBRANES! WOO-HOO!
#121. To: TooConservative, liberator, GarySpFc, A K A Stone (#111)
Yes but the mere fact we are thinking, living, feeling beings means science cannot answer origins. There's more to "in the beginning a big boom" or even worse "there is no beginning but just been there..." There used to be a time that scientists understood the limits of the knowledge of the universe and looked to an intelligent, feeling, knowing unmoved mover. This is why types like our buddy Dawkins gets miffed when people who debate him bring up philosophical propositions (some theologically driven of course). Dawkins and the other militant atheists believe science is the only knowledge and wisdom. He wants people to strip themselves not only of their faith but of their actual humanity of a thinking, feeling knowing person. I think Paul said it best: Romans 1: 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Science can't deal with motives or matters for which it can derive no evidence.
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23)
#122. To: Vicomte13 (#113)
Well that was quite poetic by itself:) Very good.
God is more intelligent than Einstein, and a better poet than Shakespeare. Usually he LITERALLY means two, or four, or fifteen separate things all at the same time, and all of them literally, which is why there were 12 Apostles and not just one Prophet.
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23)
#123. To: Vicomte13 (#119)
So someone did that to your car:)
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23)
#124. To: TooConservative (#84) (Edited)
Actually, Jesus instructed the specific people listening to him in a specific time and place, and culture, and circumstance - and he knew each of those people. We read it, and can learn from it, but if we read Jesus saying "DO THIS" to a certain set of specific people whom he knew directly, in that time and place, as being explicit directions for what we are to exactly do, in this time and place, we err. Jesus is at his most general at the end of Revelation, on the last two pages, when he says who will be thrown into the fire at judgment. THAT we can take as direct warnings that will affect us directly. But specifics about the Jewish law, delivered to Jews in a Jewish Israel with Judaism organized in a way that was very much like the Catholic Church of the middle ages, and very much not like any religious organization or any other institution with which we're familiar today...well...if we read Jesus saying "YOU" to Shecki ben Youssuf as being an explicit directive to Brian O'Shaughnessy...then we're not reading it right. If there is a lawbook in the New Testament, it's Revelation. And what Jesus says in there is really quite offensive to all of the major Christian sects, which is why they don't read it or base anything on it...except for the ones who trip out on the wild imagery but ignore the most important message of Revelation, taken as dictation from Jesus in the Throne Room of God AFTER Peter and Paul and the other Apostles are dead: He's going to judge men by their deeds. DEEDS. Not thoughts. Not beliefs. Not "faith". DEEDS. Men are judged, by God, by what they DO. Jesus Christ said that from the Throne room of heaven after Paul was long dead. He said it as DICTATION, not as some vaguely remembered speech. And he made the point of having the LAST WORD, so it's a CORRECTIVE to all of the other "maybes" that come before it. Maybe...,..., BUT ACTUALLY you are judged by your DEEDS, not by your faith. Who said? Jesus, from the Throne Room of Heaven. This is why nobody likes Revelation. Because it puts the kebosh on two millennia of traditional AND evangelical nonsense. There's a new law, for the world, a New Deal, a New Covenant. It's not AS HARD as the traditionalists make it, it's a lot HARDER than the spiritualists make it. There's a list of things that will get you damned - and notably, murder and sexual immorality are on the list. So's lying. And there's a standard of judgment: what you did in your life. Jesus gave the world a plate of spinach. Most Christians are babies who hurl it across the room and go back to their pacifier, of what they WANT to believe. For some, that's what he said to Shecki. For others, it's what Paul said to some Greeks. For people who can read and reason, it's what GOD said from the Throne Room of Heaven at the end of the Bible, after everybody else had their say. I've not very much fun in Bible bashes, because I always skip to the end of the book and answer the question - Yeah, St. Porfirio said that, but JESUS, at the END, DICTATED this from the Throne Room of heaven, so THIS is the FINAL ANSWER. Which it is. Which is why cranko's idea of a Bible study that starts with Revelation is excellent.
Jesus instructs to...
#125. To: redleghunter (#123)
No. But maybe I had the thought to suggest that some disgruntled people do it to somebody else's car. Maybe...
So someone did that to your car:)
#126. To: Vicomte13 (#124)
And do you know WHY you are judged by what you DO, and not by your "Faith", not by what you believe? Because Jesus wants it that way. It was HE who said, as the end was nearing, quite pointedly: "What good does it do you to say you follow me if you do not do what I say?" He also gave the story of those who cry "Lord, Lord!" but get shunted into the fire. If you're not doing the deeds, then you don't have the faith. That's the bottom line. How do you know if you have the faith? If you're murdering people, committing sexual immorality, lying, a dirty dog, engaging on pharmakeia and idolatry, then you're going to the fire...which means that you don't REALLY believe. If you really believed, you'd DO WHAT GOD TOLD YOU. You don't, so you don't really believe. That's the bottom line. The path to destruction is broad. The path to salvation is narrow and few stay on it. He said that too.
ACTUALLY you are judged by your DEEDS, not by your faith.
#127. To: Liberator (#104)
yes, including T-Rex and Bronto-Burgers, who didn't quite make it :-(
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23)
#128. To: Vicomte13 (#126)
The path to destruction is broad.
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23)
#129. To: TooConservative (#97)
Are you questioning the Big Bang?
We don't really know enough about the universe to make pompous proclamations.
#130. To: A Pole (#129)
Not if you find it upsetting.
Are you questioning the Big Bang?
#131. To: TooConservative (#130)
Not if you find it upsetting. I don't but some people might freak out.
Are you questioning the Big Bang?
#132. To: Willie Green (#91)
If you think that those "Nomads" wrote the Holy Scriptures based on their secular beliefs, I can understand your comments. Christians know it was the Holy Spirit who wrote the scriptures through human beings. God knows the Universe that He created.
#133. To: redleghunter (#127)
Is this where being "taken for a ride" began?
#134. To: Vicomte13 (#125)
:)
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23)
#135. To: Willie Green (#71)
That doesn't mean anything. God made a finished product.
No, the speed of light is a known constant, so the approximate size and age of the known Universe is readily calculable.
#136. To: A K A Stone (#135)
But He left it up to us to upgrade and maintain, not use and abuse.
God made a finished product.
#137. To: Willie Green (#9)
A cult teaches false doctrine regarding the person of Christ.
Well without casting stones, the problem is that there's no consensus among the various mainstream Christian denominations as to what those doctrines are. Whenever you start discussing the differences between denominations, the battle lines are quickly drawn as to whose details are "true" and whose are heresy or apostasy.
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
#138. To: redleghunter (#127)
Funny cartoon. My daughter really liked it. Thanks for posting.
Si vis pacem, para bellum
#139. To: Willie Green, A K A Stone, TooConservative, redleghunter, Vicomte13 (#136)
But He left it up to us to upgrade and maintain, not use and abuse. A tiny speck in a galaxy containing 400 billion stars, many of which have several planets circling around them. There are at least one hundred billion galaxies in the observable universe, possibly many more. And all men could fit on a square 50 by 50 miles.
"God made a finished product."
#140. To: A Pole (#139)
I'd hate to be the poor schmuck who's responsible for cleaning all the porta-potties fpr THAT crowd...
And all men could fit on a square 50 by 50 miles.
#141. To: redleghunter, TooConservative, GarySpFc, A K A Stone (#121) (Edited)
Great characterization. You nailed the MO of all these fascists. They instead want -- nay demand -- an altar to Science; HOWEVER, as they define it, as well as the demand of unquestioned acceptance and allegiance of and to their unproven facts, fake theories, and most importantly, dogma of hate of and for God.
Dawkins and the other militant atheists believe science is the only knowledge and wisdom. He wants people to strip themselves not only of their faith but of their actual humanity of a thinking, feeling knowing person.
#142. To: redleghunter (#121)
Romans 1: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Bears repeating.
I think Paul said it best:
#143. To: Stoner, liberator, Vicomte13 (#138)
LOL good. Here's another two good for the entire family. I especially like how the platypus is addressed:) 
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23)
#144. To: redleghunter, Stoner, liberator, Vicomte13 (#143)
Liking the toons.... The Evo's recipe-toon for the Big Bang: In total blackness, Mr/Ms Nothing tossed a bunch of gases into a giant blender without a top...then spins and spits out a bunch of suns, planets, stars, and earth and creatures -- including man. ALL systems perfectly functional and fitted together. #But...but...There's NO evidence of God!!!
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