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Status: Not Logged In; Sign In International News See other International News Articles Title: Court Allows Jewish Prayer on Temple Mount Source: [None] URL Source: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/192060#.VPaAlmjF_3Q Published: Mar 3, 2015 Author: Gil Ronen Post Date: 2015-03-03 22:51:01 by A K A Stone Keywords: None Views: 3233 Comments: 29 Temple activists were euphoric Monday after a precedent-setting ruling by Magistrates' Court Judge Malka Aviv in the case of Yehuda Glick vs. the Israeli Police, a day earlier. The judge ruled that the police “must make sure that Jews are able to pray on the Temple Mount” – in a ruling replete with harsh criticism of the police's policies on the Temple Mount. Activists were quoted on a Temple activists blog as saying: “This day will be remembered for generations in the annals of the struggle for the return of Jews to the Temple Mount.” The police are legally bound “to ensure that Jews are able to pray on the Temple Mount, and not to act sweepingly to prevent Jews from praying on the Temple Mount,” the judge determined. Attorney Aviad Visoly, who represented Glick said Tuesday that the verdict “has made prayer on the Temple Mount 'kosher'. In essence, the court took the Supreme Court's rulings about the Jews' right to pray on the Temple Mount, and implemented them.” "This is almost the first ruling – and certainly the most sweeping – in which the court implements the right of Jews to pray on the Temple Mount. From today, every Jew is allowed to pray on the Temple Mount. The prayer itself is not an offense.” Judge Aviv said that the police ban on Glick's visiting the Mount was issued “without appropriate consideration” and was “arbitrary.” “There is nothing in the deeds of the plaintiff [Glick] that justified in any way the punishment that he received, not in the ban itself and not in the extended period [of the ban],” she said. Glick was awarded NIS 500,000 in damages and NIS 150,000 in legal costs. Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread   Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest #1. To: A K A Stone (#0) Interesting. Waiting for Jihadi response. First step for Israelis to have regular worship on the Temple Mount. "Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7) redleghunter  posted on  2015-03-03   23:27:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #2. To: redleghunter, A K A Stone (#1) It is actually against Jewish religious law to pray on the Temple Mount. Here's why: Nowadays it is forbidden to enter the precise area where the Holy Temple used to be, because we are all ritually impure.(1) Whoever does so is violating a Biblical Prohibition punishable by death. In order for any of us to be able to become ritually pure, we would need the ablutions of the ashes of a red cow administered by a Cohen (Priest).(2) Let us assume we have performed this ritual, and are now pure. Now we need an altar. Just any altar wouldn't do, it must be in the Temple area.(3) Therefore we must rebuild the altar. (I'll bypass the problems with that, as they are too complicated to explain.) The next problem is the location of the Altar. The Law is very precise about just where the Holy Altar must be located. It is forbidden to place the Altar anywhere else. When they built the Second Holy Temple, they had to find reliable witnesses who could testify to the exact spot. They found three such witnesses, the prophets Haggai, Zephaniah and Malachi, but we don't have any prophets or witnesses today. Thus, until a prophet (we assume that it will probably be Elijah) comes and tells us where to build the Altar (among many other things we need to know first), we cannot build the Holy Altar.(4) The answer to this I shall discuss later, Hashem willing. Without the Holy Altar it is forbidden to bring sacrifices. Let us assume we were able to build the Altar, properly, and in the precise location. We would still need a Cohen whose genealogy can be determined absolutely and verified.(5) The answer to this problem I shall discuss later, Hashem willing. Our next problem is that we must appoint a High Priest, or all Service is forbidden.(6) To appoint a High Priest, we need a Sanhedrin, which is a body of 71 ordained rabbis acting as the Supreme Court of the People Of Israel. (7) We cannot assemble a Sanhedrin, because the Sanhedrin must consist of rabbis ordained with the Mosaic Ordination, which was transmitted from Rabbi to Rabbi since Moses.(8) However, the Mosaic Ordination ceased to exist in the year 358 C.E. because of the persecutions Constantinius perpetrated upon the Jews.(9) This too, I shall answer later, Hashem willing. There are yet other problems, such as Laws involving the Priestly Garments, the exact measurements of the Temple area, and many, many more, all of which demand as yet undiscovered answers. And there are other types of concerns as well. The Torah does not even consider it a requirement on our part to rebuild the Holy Temple until most or all the Children of Israel live in the land of Israel. And there is also the matter of the Return of the Ten Tribes to consider, which will be part of our Final Redemption. When these things have taken place, and we have made lasting peace with our enemies; when all Jews have returned to the Holy Land of Israel, and religious Jews have complete temporal and religious control over the land, then we will know that our Final Redemption has begun, and we can then turn our thoughts towards rebuilding the Holy Temple. We have a tradition that Elijah the Prophet will arrive and reveal himself to us before the Advent of the Messiah.(10) He will arrive and answer all questions and resolve all doubts.(11) He will reveal to us which families are definitely Cohanim.(12) And he is a recipient of the Ordination Of Moses(13) and can therefore restore the Sanhedrin. And he will bring peace to the world. Thrice daily, all observant Jews pray: "...and restore the service to the Holy Sanctuary, and the fire-offerings of Israel and their prayer you will accept with love..." Rabbi Moshe Shternbuch, in his work, Moadim Uzmanim,(14) in his treatment of the subject, ends off by saying: And according to what we have explained at length above, there are innumerable reasons why we do not rebuild the Holy Temple or the Altar, nor bring sacrifices today. Nor does the repossession of the Land of Israel change that Law at all. We are unable, and therefore exempt according to the Law, without a doubt, for many reasons, until the Messiah arrives...G-d forbid that anyone should reconsider or doubt this...And I only discussed these matters out of interest in the subject, due to love of the Holy Temple and the Holy Service. May the Holy One, Blessed is He, pour upon us a spirit of purity from high above, and may we be found worthy of having G-d's Holy Manifestation in our midst when G-d returns the Service to His Sanctuary speedily, and with our own eyes may we merit seeing everything straightened out. http://www.beingjewish.com/unchanged/rebuild.html Pericles  posted on  2015-03-04   0:36:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #3. To: Pericles (#2) It is actually against Jewish religious law to pray on the Temple Mount. Jews don't have a pope. Just because some group of Jewish authorities, even the Sanhedrin, rules that it is illegal is not necessarily binding on all Jews. It can be as easily argued that the Temple is not characterized by its mere GPS coordinates but that the entire idea of the Temple is inextricably linked to its prescribed construction and its contents, all ritually purified by Jewish priest as described in scripture. Until you have that Temple rebuilt to spec and purified, Temple Mount is just another piece of dirt, however sentimental to some people. Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-04   2:14:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #4. To: A K A Stone (#0) You know who would love this? David Ben-Ariel from LP (deceased). I think he got expelled from Israel over some incident at the Temple site. Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-04   2:19:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #5. To: TooConservative (#3) Moreover, although Jews will never admit this until Christ returns, the truth is that it was God himself, through Christ, who pronounced the final doom of the Temple and ordained its destruction and the trampling of the vineyard - the condemnation warned of in Deuteronomy. The only way that God has provided to him now is through the new covenant in Christ. God removed the ability to perform the rites of the Jewish covenant. What the rabbi wrote above is true: the Temple CANNOT be rebuilt according to halakah. God intended it that way. A bunch of Jews could get together and do it by main force, but it would not be legitimate. God gave the new covenant to the world, and that's the way and the truth and the light. The covenant of the Hebrews has been fulfilled, insofar that the penalty clauses that God included in it were imposed. There is a desire to resurrect the legitimacy of Judaism, but that desire is contrary to the express and manifest will of God. Jesus is now the ONLY legitimate way. You could slap back up a Temple and start killing animals, but it would be no more real than the high places erected by Jeroboam were, and it would be offensive to God, because it would be, once again, overtly and pointedly rejecting his Son. The Temple was destroyed in the first place, and forever, as punishment for that the first time. To re-erect the Temple would be to attempt to defy the final judgment of God. If the Jews want to erect something on the Temple mount, it ought to be a Jewish Christian Church. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-03-04   8:16:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #6. To: Vicomte13, redleghunter (#5) Moreover, although Jews will never admit this until Christ returns, the truth is that it was God himself, through Christ, who pronounced the final doom of the Temple and ordained its destruction and the trampling of the vineyard - the condemnation warned of in Deuteronomy. It goes almost without saying that Jews don't see the Diaspora through the lens of Christian scripture. So you're mostly preaching to the already-convinced on this topic. There is a desire to resurrect the legitimacy of Judaism, but that desire is contrary to the express and manifest will of God. Jesus is now the ONLY legitimate way. You could slap back up a Temple and start killing animals, but it would be no more real than the high places erected by Jeroboam were, and it would be offensive to God, because it would be, once again, overtly and pointedly rejecting his Son. The Temple was destroyed in the first place, and forever, as punishment for that the first time. To re-erect the Temple would be to attempt to defy the final judgment of God. While this idea of rebuilding the Temple and reinstituting the ancient sacrifices would have some appeal with Orthodox Jews, I am not confident that Israel's political elite or a majority of its voters would want to see this happen. Even if the Muslims were to offer the temple site for that purpose, I don't believe they would rebuild it or sacrifice any animals. These Jews are not the Jews they were back in 70AD. They are a modern people in many ways. Even the Orthodox. I think there is a distinct minority within Judaism that would love to have the Temple and even the sacrifices again. But we have to consider how often we have heard any Jews -- even the Orthodox -- call for a rebuilding the Temple or bemoan that the expiatory sacrifices are not being offered in Israel. And I don't think you can find very many calls from Jews to rebuild the Temple and start sacrificing animals. Rebuild the Temple and sacrifice animals? I don't think you could pay the Jews enough to do that. It's always surprised me that so many Christians so strongly desire this idea that the Jews are all just dreaming of the Temple and sacrifices. Jews have their ancient saying, "Next year in Jerusalem". Well, they already have Jerusalem to visit or to immigrate. It would take a massive outbreak of Jewish fundamentalism to rebuild the Temple and do the sacrifices and other Temple rituals. You really think we're likely to see Jewish fundamentalism on the march, as we are seeing Sunni fundamentalism on the march in Syria and Iraq? Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-04   8:43:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #7. To: redleghunter (#1) I'm waiting for the new temple. The prayers are the first step as you said. Don  posted on  2015-03-04   9:11:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #8. To: Pericles, A K A Stone, Vicomte13, GarySpFc, liberator, BobCeleste, Don (#2) Nowadays it is forbidden to enter the precise area where the Holy Temple used to be, because we are all ritually impure.(1) Whoever does so is violating a Biblical Prohibition punishable by death. In order for any of us to be able to become ritually pure, we would need the ablutions of the ashes of a red cow administered by a Cohen (Priest).(2) Let us assume we have performed this ritual, and are now pure. Now we need an altar. Just any altar wouldn't do, it must be in the Temple area.(3) Therefore we must rebuild the altar. (I'll bypass the problems with that, as they are too complicated to explain.) The next problem is the location of the Altar. The Law is very precise about just where the Holy Altar must be located. It is forbidden to place the Altar anywhere else. When they built the Second Holy Temple, they had to find reliable witnesses who could testify to the exact spot. They found three such witnesses, the prophets Haggai, Zephaniah and Malachi, but we don't have any prophets or witnesses today. Thus, until a prophet (we assume that it will probably be Elijah) comes and tells us where to build the Altar (among many other things we need to know first), we cannot build the Holy Altar.(4) The answer to this I shall discuss later, Hashem willing. Without the Holy Altar it is forbidden to bring sacrifices. Thanks. Good references and spot on from a post second temple Jewish perspective. Which leads me to believe this is an action of the "Temple Mount" group in Israel. Meaning they are trying to find a legal loop hole or ruling to gradually introduce the next phases of worship. But as your references indicate, a bridge too far by their own traditional writings and exegesis of their oral law. "Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7) redleghunter  posted on  2015-03-04   9:18:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #9. To: TooConservative (#3) Jews don't have a pope. Just because some group of Jewish authorities, even the Sanhedrin, rules that it is illegal is not necessarily binding on all Jews. Actually, for the state of Israel there is a form of Popish institution where what is officially Jewish is regulated by the Orthodox community. Pericles  posted on  2015-03-04   9:51:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #10. To: Vicomte13 (#5) Jesus is now the ONLY legitimate way. You could slap back up a Temple and start killing animals, but it would be no more real than the high places erected by Jeroboam were, and it would be offensive to God, because it would be, once again, overtly and pointedly rejecting his Son. Indeed. And no matter what one's views of eschatology are, some who desire to build a new temple on the Mount will be obliged by someone claiming to be Messiah but won't be. The world is ripe for false teachers and the spirit of anti-christ to take away the focus from the Risen Son of God Yeshua Messiah. "Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7) redleghunter  posted on  2015-03-04   9:57:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #11. To: Vicomte13 (#5) (Edited) . It is forbidden to place the Altar anywhere else. When they built the Second Holy Temple, they had to find reliable witnesses who could testify to the exact spot. They found three such witnesses, the prophets Haggai, Zephaniah and Malach I marvel how the Trinity is found in many places of subtext of the Holy Bible. Pericles  posted on  2015-03-04   10:10:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #12. To: redleghunter, Vicomte13 (#8) Among the vast plethora of Jewish organizations, how many can you cite that call for building the Third Temple and having expiatory animal sacrifices again? Orthodox Judaism believes in the rebuilding of a Third Temple and the resumption of Korban (sacrificial worship), although there is disagreement about how rebuilding should take place. Orthodox scholars and rabbinic authorities generally believe that rebuilding should occur in the era of the Jewish Messiah at the hand of Divine Providence, although a minority position, following the opinion of Maimonides, holds that Jews should endeavour to rebuild the temple themselves, whenever possible. Orthodox authorities generally predict the resumption of the complete traditional system of sacrifices, but Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist authorities disavow all belief in the resumption of Korban. This belief is embedded in Orthodox Jewish prayer services. Three times a day, Orthodox Jews recite the Amidah, which contains prayers for the Temple's restoration and for sacrificial worship's resumption, and every day there is a recitation of the order of the day's sacrifices and the psalms the Levites would have sung that day. The generally accepted position among Orthodox Jews is that the full order of the sacrifices will be resumed upon the building of the Temple. Maimonides wrote in his great philosophical treatise, "A Guide for the Perplexed", "that God deliberately has moved Jews away from sacrifices towards prayer, as prayer is a higher form of worship". However in his Jewish legal code, the "Mishneh Torah", he states that animal sacrifices will resume in the third temple, and details how they will be carried out. Some[who?] attribute to Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook the view that animal sacrifices will not be reinstituted. These views on the Temple service are sometimes misconstrued (for example, in Olat Re'ayah, commenting on the prophecy of Malachi ("Then the grain-offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to God as in the days of old and as in former years" [Malachi 3:4]), he indicates that only grain offerings will be offered in the reinstated Temple service, while in a related essay from Otzarot Hare'ayah he suggests otherwise). I can think of one or two small fringe groups that do advocate for it. One of them is the Temple Institute. USNews.com: Israeli Institute Prepares Priests for Jerusalem's Third Temple Ten students, who got to the priests school by word of mouth, paid 1,000 shekels (some $290), a relatively small sum, for twice-weekly lessons, three hours each, that teach “how to be priests.” The director of the school, Rabbi Yehoshua Friedman, hopes that the school will be more properly publicized next year and that more students will arrive. “The rabbis say that the minimum necessary is 13 priests in the temple to carry out the mandatory sacrifices. If you’re talking about a fully operating temple, where people bring their own sacrifices, it’s a place where hundreds of priests work daily,” he says. “In the days of old, a father and grandfather would teach the grandson and son how to be a priest, the commandments and laws. Today, they have to take a course. The prayer to establish the temple has no meaning if we don’t actually prepare for it. Think what would happen if tomorrow you got a functioning temple and don’t have priests.” Among the main Jewish factions, any resumption of the sacrifices is opposed actively. The Orthodox generally disagree among themselves with many, if not most, believing that it should only be rebuilt when the Jewish Messiah is manifest and comes to power, much as David came to power. But even David, a proto-Messiah, did not build the First Temple, that was the work of his son, Solomon. If you want to see a Third Temple and its sacrifices resumed, you'll first have to find more than a few percent of the Jews who actually want to do it. Otherwise, this idea of a Third Temple is just wishful thinking, mostly from Christians in America. Perhaps in a generation, when the Orthodox have completely dominated Israel's demographics, it might be possible to have a majority of Israeli Jews favoring the Third Temple. Those Orthodox are married and have five kids by age 25 while the non-Orthodox continue to have demographic shrinkage comparable to all the Western countries. But we should keep in mind that the Orthodox won't serve in IDF. So for this to happen, the Jews who do serve in the IDF and who are indifferent to a Third Temple and who oppose any resumption of animal sacrifices would be required to defend Israel for the benefit of the conscientous-objector Orthodox while it takes over the site of a major shrine of Islam, almost certain to rile Arabs and Muslims to 1948 or 1967 levels. Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-04   10:24:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #13. To: Pericles (#9) Actually, for the state of Israel there is a form of Popish institution where what is officially Jewish is regulated by the Orthodox community. The Sanhedrin is Israel's highest court, just as it was during the Temple era(s) and during the life of Jesus. I would not compare them to papist courts that we know from history. The Orthodox do have informal courts that operate within the sphere of family law and minor matters. For that matter, they have some legal standing even here in the U.S., a kind of extra-legal court system. A Jewish woman might be able to get a civil divorce at any time but for a religious divorce, they have to go through a council of rabbis. You see much the same thing in Catholics being able to get a civil divorce at any time but they have to maneuver into a sneaky annulment from the local Roman church in order to re-marry and have the marriage accepted as blessed by other Catholics. Of course, this is a minority arrangement present in only a few states. Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-04   10:30:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #14. To: Vicomte13 (#5) To re-erect the Temple would be to attempt to defy the final judgment of God. I disagree here is why. First Jesus did say the temple would be destroyed. Also the Bible talks about Christs return and it mentions that there is a temple. A K A Stone  posted on  2015-03-04   10:37:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #15. To: TooConservative, vicmonte13 (#6) Rebuild the Temple and sacrifice animals? I don't think you could pay the Jews enough to do that. If they did shed animals to cover their sins. Would it actually cover them in your opinion. I can just imagine PETAs reaction. A K A Stone  posted on  2015-03-04   10:39:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #16. To: redleghunter (#10) some who desire to build a new temple on the Mount will be obliged by someone claiming to be Messiah but won't be. Let me get this straight. You think they will rebuild the temple. But it will be for the Beast? Unwittingly. A K A Stone  posted on  2015-03-04   10:42:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #17. To: TooConservative, Vicomte13, Don, BobCeleste, GarySpFc (#6) I think there is a distinct minority within Judaism that would love to have the Temple and even the sacrifices again. But we have to consider how often we have heard any Jews -- even the Orthodox -- call for a rebuilding the Temple or bemoan that the expiatory sacrifices are not being offered in Israel. And I don't think you can find very many calls from Jews to rebuild the Temple and start sacrificing animals. The news and efforts on the rebuilding of another temple are mixed as you note. But there seems to be a rising desire to at least have a Jewish presence on the Temple Mount: The Bible repeatedly describes the Temple as the spiritual center of the world and the source for peace and prosperity. In Isaiah’s famous vision the prophet describes, “They shall beat their swords into plowshares…for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.” The absence of the Temple is seen in the stories reported on the nightly news and its void adversely affects nations, geo-politics and global peace. Director of the Temple Institute in Jerusalem, Rabbi Chaim Richman explains that the 9th of Av “is not about bemoaning the Temple. It’s about bemoaning the world without the Temple. A world that has lost its light, its color and its direction.” Indeed, there is a growing “Temple Movement” in Israel today with thousands of Jews working to rebuild the Temple. According to a poll taken last year in a leading newspaper Ha’aretz, one third of Israelis believe that Israel should erect the Temple on the Temple Mount. Israel’s Housing Minister called publicly for the rebuilding of the Temple, “We’ve built many little, little temples,” MK Uri Ariel said, referring to synagogues, “but we need to build a real Temple on the Temple Mount.” Schools throughout Israel are diligently studying the intricate laws of the Temple and Jews of all backgrounds visit the Temple Mount each month. The Jerusalem Post quoted Sarit Berko, a non-observant Israeli who came to the Western Wall to observe the 9th of Av from her home in Tel Aviv, an annual pilgrimage she has made since the Six Day War in 1967. “During Passover, most Jews say ‘Next year in Jerusalem’,” explained Berko, “As an Israeli I pray, ‘Next year may the Third Temple be built and last for eternity.’ The Temple is such a central theme in the Bible that one third of all its commandments deal with laws carried out in it. Rabbi Richman explains that far from being an extremist, “our desire to see a rebuilt Temple is an expression of healthy, normative Judaism.” To further their advocacy, the Temple Institute recently released a short video “The Children are Ready” which dramatically portrays young Jewish kids dragging their fathers from synagogue services in order to join them in the rebuilding of the Temple. More here An interesting site here has a good history account of attempts of a third temple on the Mount. The author is cautious to mention that some of the rumors of pre-fab stones cut for another temple are unfounded. A pretty fair assessment from a Jewish perspective and good historical run down of failed or foiled efforts for some Jewish groups to seize the Temple Mount from the Muslims. Of note the author hones in on the requirement of priestly line requirement from Torah and the efforts of some orthodox Jewish rabbis to answer this requirement: If a new Temple is to be constructed then there must be a functioning priesthood to perform the proper rites and ceremonies. Such a priesthood is now in the works. In an old stone building in the Old City of Jerusalem, a small group of young scholars are preparing for the building of the Third Temple and the coming of the Messiah. The founder of one particular yeshiva (school) is Motti Hacohen. Hacohen knew he was a priest but that never affected his life very much. Until, that is, the day he looked up from his opened Talmud while he was studying at a Yeshiva on the Golan Heights and saw a friend pouring over a tractate dealing with the laws of the temple and the priesthood. Hacohen asked him why he was studying such obscure laws. His friend responded, "Why aren't you?" He told Hacohen that he should be more interested in the Temple regulations seeing that he was from the priestly line. Hacohen decided to take up the challenge. Hacohen then began a search for a yeshiva that could teach him matters concerning the rebuilding of the Temple. Finding none that would satisfy his needs Hacohen founded the Tora Kohanim. On Good Friday, 1990, one hundred fifty devout Jews, members of the Yeshivot Ateret Cohanim, moved into four buildings in the Christian quarter of Jerusalem causing a protest from both Muslim and Christian groups. The site of the building, just around the corner from the church of the Holy Sepulchre, was chosen to help create Jewish settlements in the Old City of Jerusalem geographically near the Temple Mount. (The city is presently divided into separate quarters for Christians, Muslims, and Jews and each district's residents are very sensitive to outsiders moving into their territory for any reason). The problem of restoring the sacrificial system is one that devout Jerusalem Jews have been researching with great zeal and diligent. In an article called, the "Significance of Sacrifice," Jewish writer Pinhas H. Pell writes: Ambivalence in regard to the sacrificial cult permeates Jewish thought and literature from the time of the ancient pre-exilic prophets through the Psalms to the rabbis of the Talmud and Midrash and the major medieval philosophers, down to contemporary religious thinkers. It left its imprint on the liturgy and has been (and still is to some extent) the subject of heated debates. It is generally thought that sacrifices of life were among the earliest and most profound expressions of the human desire to come as close as possible to God. While in English the verb "to sacrifice" means "to make sacred," the Hebrew word for "sacrifice" (korban, le-hakriv) is from the same root as "to come near, to approach. . . . " Sacrifices do indeed present an esthetic, sometimes a moral problem to many modern Jews who are unable to envision being spiritually uplifted at the sight of slaughtered animals, spilled blood and burning incense. Yet, with all the reservations prophets, rabbis and philosophers have expressed about sacrifices they are indisputably an integral part of Torah legislation, as well as Jewish history in the First and Second Temples and are included in Jewish aspirations concerning the third temple, for whose speedy rebuilding Jews pray daily according to their traditional prayer book. Some rabbis claim that one of the things necessary for a Third Temple is the ashes of the Red Heifer. Of all the sacrifices for sin mentioned in the Old Testament, only the slaying of the Red Heifer was "outside the camp," i.e., not in the temple. Numbers Chapter 19 describes this offering, and instructions for preparing water for ritual purification from the ashes of the sacrificed animal after it had been burned. Red heifers without spot or blemish are today being bred and raised by at least one group in the United States, Rev. Clyde Lott who writes in a new 1995 Jewish publication, "The Restoration." (Ref. 12) American amateur archaeologist Vendyl Jones of Arlington, Texas, has for many years been searching in caves near Qumran for the ashes of the last red heifer sacrificed before the destruction of the temple in AD 70. Authorities at The Temple Institute have stated, however, that Third Temple sacrifices and ritual cleansing can be accomplished (restored) without these old ashes if they are not found. Needless to say, as Vic points out for the Jews to reinstitute the former Temple ritual practices it will involve cutting some corners. Or worse someone else is uplifted as the promised Messiah who will instuct them to do so. I know TC get those Left Behind books off the shelf. But as you both point out, the Jewish faith is clearly divided and we know from Jewish tradition that two Jews could be in the room arguing three-four different opinions:) More at the site linked above and again here "Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7) redleghunter  posted on  2015-03-04   10:46:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #18. To: Pericles (#11) I marvel how the Trinity is found in many places of subtext of the Holy Bible. Yes! Right there in the OT are the offices of King, Priest and Law Giver. "Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7) redleghunter  posted on  2015-03-04   10:49:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #19. To: A K A Stone, Vicomte13, Coral Snake, GarySpFc (#16) Let me get this straight. You think they will rebuild the temple. But it will be for the Beast? Unwittingly. Not certain as it is not clear. What we do know is from Paul: 2 Thessalonians 2 King James Version (KJV) 1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (KJV) A few points to consider on the various eschatological views of the above; 1. The literal and some parts allegorical preterist view which concludes the above was partially fulfilled in 70 AD but yet to come is the literal second coming of Jesus Christ 2. The allegory/spiritual interpretation which applies the above through the ages until the literal second coming of Jesus Christ. 3. The literal premillennial view that the above passage is yet to come before the literal second coming of Jesus Christ. 4. There are several views in Catholic circles as well. Some adhere to one or more of the above. However, a uniquely Catholic view I did not know of until a few months ago (seeing it on TOS) is that the "sitteth in the temple of God" refers to the Vatican and the anti-christ posing as the real Pope. This is not an official Catholic position but most likely of the SSPX variant of Catholicism. I pinged Vic to see if he has ever heard of this. Gary recommended a book a few years back on LP which explains the various eschatological views. Forget the name of the tome, perhaps he can refresh my memory:) There are other views as you know, but since Coral Snake no longer posts here I did not mention his views, yet pinged him if he is lurking. I listed the above given I think at least #1-#3 is what most here are familiar with. So to answer your question...If we are to take 2 Thessalonians 2 as yet future, there is going to be another Temple of some sort. If one does not take it literally then it means something else. Enough internet 'ink' has been spilled on this site and LP on the subject to no avail. We should just be good Bereans as Luke puts it in Acts 17:11--"These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."(KJV) Bottom line: Jesus Christ is Coming Again. Preach the Gospel. Love your brethren as Christ loves us. Be alert. Be ready. Be found worthy of His coming. "Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7) redleghunter  posted on  2015-03-04   11:32:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #20. To: A K A Stone (#15) If they did shed animals to cover their sins. Would it actually cover them in your opinion. You think they actually care about any Gentile's opinion? Hah! That'll be the day. Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-04   12:01:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #21. To: redleghunter, Vicomte13 (#17) But there seems to be a rising desire to at least have a Jewish presence on the Temple Mount: Jewish presence, yes, they would like that. But, as Vic observed, it all has to follow the full prescribed ancient requirements or it's just touristy, not authentic. To call it holy among Jews, it must be impeccable in construction and ritual and staffing. Anything less than the full pattern of observance is blasphemous. It is very much an all-or-nothing proposition, not some incremental process. The problem of restoring the sacrificial system is one that devout Jerusalem Jews have been researching with great zeal and diligent. Doesn't the fact that even now, over 65 years after Israel was re-established and with Jerusalem in Jewish hands for the last 50 years, that they have given so little thought to the topic that they actually have to research the topic? Evidently, it is a very low priority even to the most religious Jews. I know TC get those Left Behind books off the shelf. Too much work since there are now more Left Behind books than there are books in the New Testament. And ten times the textual content of the New Testament. Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-04   12:10:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #22. To: TooConservative (#12) Among the vast plethora of Jewish organizations, how many can you cite that call for building the Third Temple and having expiatory animal sacrifices again? There are far more Christians with an addled view of the Hebrew Covenant who want that then there are Jews. It doesn't matter to the point I was making if any Jews want it or all Jews want it, or if 100 million Christians ALSO want it. Theologically, to rebuild the Temple and resume the sacrifices is to seek to overthrow the judgment of God. It's a bad thing to dream of rebuilding the Temple, because it is a direct frontal assault on the decision of Christ to even WANT to do it! Christ condemned the Temple to be destroyed, and condemned priestly Israel to END, with the vineyard given to the Gentiles. It was the final judgment pronounced based on the law YHWH gave in Deuteronomy. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-03-04   12:58:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #23. To: Vicomte13, redleghunter (#22) There are far more Christians with an addled view of the Hebrew Covenant who want that then there are Jews. My own point, stated far more succinctly. It doesn't matter to the point I was making if any Jews want it or all Jews want it, or if 100 million Christians ALSO want it. Well, it does kinda matter if it's something you actually think will really happen. And for that, it is quite important what Jews think about it and profoundly unimportant what Christians think about it. And several suitable red heifers have been located and this is well-known. And the Temple Institute apparently has the required consecrated temple items and at least enough priests to be prepared to initiate (if not sustain) the sacrifice system. It is not lack of required materials or staffing that is holding back the Jews. It's a lack of desire on the part of Jews. Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-04   13:11:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #24. To: TooConservative (#13) Actually, for the state of Israel there is a form of Popish institution where what is officially Jewish is regulated by the Orthodox community. The Sanhedrin is Israel's highest court, just as it was during the Temple era(s) and during the life of Jesus. I would not compare them to papist courts that we know from history. The Orthodox do have informal courts that operate within the sphere of family law and minor matters. For that matter, they have some legal standing even here in the U.S., a kind of extra-legal court system. A Jewish woman might be able to get a civil divorce at any time but for a religious divorce, they have to go through a council of rabbis. You see much the same thing in Catholics being able to get a civil divorce at any time but they have to maneuver into a sneaky annulment from the local Roman church in order to re-marry and have the marriage accepted as blessed by other Catholics. Of course, this is a minority arrangement present in only a few states. be that as it may, the vast majority of rabbincal scholarship states that the Temple Mount is verbotten till the messiah comes - and that includes Jews seeking to pray there - as much as such an edict may make Christian Zionists scratch their heads (if not make them explode). Pericles  posted on  2015-03-04   13:14:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #25. To: A K A Stone (#15) If they did shed animals to cover their sins. Would it actually cover them in your opinion. Of course it would not. It would be nothing more than a latter-day unauthorized "high place", of the sort that Jeroboam set up in the Northern Kingdom, to avoid the only true Temple in Jerusalem, his rival kingdom, or the various high places that priests and Levites in Judah set up out around the country for their own convenience. More of the Prophets railed against the unauthorized high places than against any other single sin of the people. God has always been pretty straightforward in his revealed law. No means no. And when it came to the faith, there was only one authorized way, one altar of sacrifice, one high priest, with the Urim and Thummim, one ephod. Recall that after the victory over the Canaanites, the Israelites nearly went and wiped out the Reubenites and half-tribe of Mannasseh who had settled trans-Jordan, in the lands taken from Og. They had set up an altar that mimicked the one at Bethel (which was the center of worship until David moved the ark to Jerusalem and planned the Temple). The mere fact of having set up another altar was proclaimed as blasphemy, and the rest of the tribes were prepared to go on a war of genocide to enforce God's law. They turned back only when satisfied that what the trans-Jordanian Hebrews had set up was not a second altar, but merely a REMEMBRANCE of the original altar. By contrast, the high places ("altar" means "high place") set up in the Kingdom of Israel, and throughout Judah, were places where sacrifices were offered, and God unremittingly sent prophets calling these sacrifices blasphemous, unholy and doomed. There was precisely one authorized altar, one center, one high priest. The prophets beat THIS tattoo in their complaints more relentlessly and universally than any other single complaint. God did not authorize freestyle worship, and he limited certain rites to one place, on one altar, under the leadership of one supreme priest. Unlike the article, however, I think that the Jews COULD, if they set about it, recreate the Temple in its proportions and forms. There are many people named "Cohen" who are considered to be descendants of the priest, and there is a Kohanite genetic marker. So a Kohanite priesthood could be reconstituted. Jewish traditions that the red heifer must not even have three white or black hairs are absurd. That's not in the Bible. Any red cow that doesn't have scars would do. The proportions of two altars were spelled out, but no proportions were given, so Israel would have to be the Israel of the tabernacle, as the Israelites don't have other instructions that would apply. Rebuild the tabernacle tent. It's doable. We should remember that most of the animal sacrifices were EATEN, so it should not be such a great burden to allow traditionalists to sacrifice animals and eat the meat. Only the burnt offering was not eaten. It's doable, but it would serve no theological purpose. The rite never forgave sins - it was God who forgave the sins, the rite merely reminded the people of the price of sins: through the blood and death of the animal, and the meal, etc. And where would the Urim and Thummim be? They're gone. What would be accomplished by these forms? Nothing. For the country to be spared, the PEOPLE have to generally follow the laws, and they don't. That's what got Israel destroyed the first two times. The only reason the rites ever did anything was because God said they would. Jesus stood in Jerusalem, and said that the vineyard would be taken away and given to others, because the tenants didn't recognize the son of the landlord and killed him. And he said that the Temple would be utterly destroyed. The destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman Army was the execution of the judgment of Jesus Christ. He said that none comes to the Father but through him, and that he is the way and the truth and the light. So, what do the animal sacrifices have to do with that? Indeed, if one were to be Pharisaic and strictly Scriptural, one could argue for the necessity of an Apostolic succession (following the rules Paul wrote out in Timothy), and apostolic baptism, one could argue that Peter was the High Priest of the New Covenant after Jesus, and that his successors retain that role. Traditional Christianity argues just that. This is the divide between Catholics and Protestants. But there's no place to get a handhold for restoring the Jewish ritual as actually being a means of obtaining forgiveness from God now. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-03-04   13:22:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #26. To: TooConservative, Vicomte13 (#23) It is not lack of required materials or staffing that is holding back the Jews. It's a lack of desire on the part of Jews. Also the lack of desire to assume the geopolitical consequences of pushing such. We have Obola, Lurch and Mad Joe going on the offensive against Israel for apartment developments. Just think if someone gets a wild hair to build a temple next to the third most important Muslim site. "Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7) redleghunter  posted on  2015-03-04   15:39:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #27. To: redleghunter (#26) Just think if someone gets a wild hair to build a temple next to the third most important Muslim site. Maybe the Jews have considered that and the current disinterest in building the Third Temple is just them coolly calculating the likely consequences: a major war with the Muslims. Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-05   9:41:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #28. To: redleghunter (#26) Just think if someone gets a wild hair to build a temple next to "Next to"? No, no: the Temple must be built UPON that rock. The Mosque of the Golden Dome would have to be bulldozed to put the Temple in the right place. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-03-05   9:58:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #29. To: Vicomte13 (#28) "Next to"? No, no: the Temple must be built UPON that rock. The Mosque of the Golden Dome would have to be bulldozed to put the Temple in the right place. Only a supernatural event could make that Mosque 'move' enough to actually build over it. "Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7) redleghunter  posted on  2015-03-05   17:26:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest

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