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Title: Why Iran Believes ISIS is a U.S. Creation
Source: Time (yeah, it still exists in dental offices)
URL Source: http://time.com/3720081/isis-iran-us-creation/
Published: Feb 26, 2015
Author: Kay Armin Serjoie
Post Date: 2015-03-01 08:09:05 by Tooconservative
Keywords: None
Views: 16976
Comments: 91

"We believe that the West has been influential in the creation of ISIS"

Iran has taken a lead role in defending the regime of Syrian President Bashar Assad and strengthening the Baghdad government in the war against the Islamic State of Iraq and Greater Syria (ISIS). But that doesn’t mean Iran views the United States as an ally in that war, even if they share a common enemy in ISIS.

Abdullah Ganji, the managing-director of Javan newspaper, which is believed to closely reflect the views of the government and the powerful Iranian Revolutionary Guards, says that U.S. support for ISIS is in fact a way of ensuring Israel’s security and disrupting the Muslim world in the cause of advancing Western interests.

“We believe that the West has been influential in the creation of ISIS for a number of reasons. First to engage Muslims against each other, to waste their energy and in this way Israel’s security would be guaranteed or at least enhanced,” says Ganji. “Secondly, an ugly, violent and homicidal face of Islam is presented to the world. And third, to create an inconvenience for Iran.”

Iran’s relations with the U.S. have been strained since the 1979 Islamic Revolution ousted the U.S.-backed Shah of Iran and negotiations are currently underway between Iran and Western nations, including the U.S., to ensure the Islamic Republic does not produce nuclear weapons.

Ganji went on to say that much of ISIS — its propaganda, structure and weapons — were all the work of the West. “A group that claims to be an Islamic one and has no sensitivity towards occupied Muslim lands in Palestine but is bent on killing Muslims as its first priority, it’s not a movement with roots in Islamic history. Not only many of its weapons but its methods of operation, its propaganda methods and many of its internal structures are Western, that’s why we are distrustful of the roots of ISIS,” he says.

“As the Supreme Leader [Ayatollah Khamenei] also said, [the coalition forces] have on a number of times even made weapon drops for ISIS. How is it that they have laser-guided precision munitions and bombs but drop weapons for the wrong people? And not only once but at least a number of times,” he says, referring to incidents when weapons dropped from U.S. aircraft landed in ISIS-controlled areas rather than the intended Kurdish-controlled areas.

“Iran cannot cooperate with the United States against ISIS because it doesn’t trust America, it doesn’t believe in their honesty in combatting ISIS. Iran can’t trust the U.S. to begin something and to continue to the end. It acts patronizingly and will change its path whenever it feels it is justified. We are also worried that the U.S. is using ISIS as a pretext to return its troops into Iraq,” Ganji says. “I believe that the U.S. prefers a weak ISIS that cannot be a major threat but will still cause inconvenience for Iran, Iraq and Syria and generally what they themselves called the Shiite crescent.”


Poster Comment:

I've read other reports that, across the Mideast, it is the majority view that ISIS is an American creation. Here, the Iranians make those accusations their official position.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 33.

#1. To: TooConservative (#0)

The USA stirs up trouble, everywhere. There is no good reason for the USA to be militariy or politically involved half-way around the world meddling in the affairs of others.

Pridie.Nones  posted on  2015-03-01   8:29:46 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Pridie.Nones (#1)

There is no good reason for the USA to be militariy or politically involved half-way around the world meddling in the affairs of others.

I wouldn't go that far. We have always had foreign interests to protect going back to the early decades of the Republic.

But that is no excuse to turn the Mideast in a shootout at the OK Corral. The neocons often talk about it in terms of being like the Wild West, like they can just go in and shoot things up and it will all turn out so well ("greeted as liberators", Arab Spring, etc.). They actually discuss it among themselves in these terms. Appalling. And it is an obvious subtext in the warmongering rhetoric we hear from a number of these GOP candidates as they try to win favor (and hundreds of millions) in the Sheldon Adelson Primary.

I posted this in response to another poster who was discussing why Shi'a Iran hadn't gotten involved in driving Sunni ISIS from Shi'a Iraq, despite Iran's proximity to Iraq.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-01   9:56:19 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: TooConservative, tomder55 (#2)

I posted this in response to another poster who was discussing why Shi'a Iran hadn't gotten involved in driving Sunni ISIS from Shi'a Iraq, despite Iran's proximity to Iraq.

I explained it on the other thread.

1. The Persians know how far they can push their Arab Shia allies.

2. Persians wait for Arabs to finish killing each other. No matter Islamic affiliations.

Iran also had (probably still has) dealings with Sunni terror and insurgent groups. 2007-2009 when Maliki showed some independence from Tehran we started seeing EFP IED attacks on Iraqi security forces in Sunni areas. Interesting that the devices used were Iranian made.

It's a lot more untidy over there than many want to admit.

Iran wants uninterrupted rat lines to Hezbollah. The rise of ISIL challenges their freedom of maneuver and interior lines. Of course they will blame the US.

redleghunter  posted on  2015-03-01   13:14:56 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: redleghunter (#10)

It's a lot more untidy over there than many want to admit.

Unfortunately, from the perspective of the average Iraqi, it's been a long slide downhill in security and prosperity and confidence that your neighbors, regardless of sect, aren't just going to murder you suddenly.

Saddam was brutal but he kept the peace in Iraq for a long time. Maybe people are starting to better understand why he was so utterly ruthless with the woodchippers.

Tell me, if you captured some of these known ISIS killers of other Muslims and Christians and Westerners as well as Vandals of the rare artifacts and antiquities of ancient empires and their cults (which have been gone for many centuries), would you be tempted to do the same as Saddam did if there was a handy nearby woodchipper? I know I would. Let them pass over to Paradise and their 72 virgins in 7200 separate bloody pieces. And even that is too good for these scum.

The Mideast is a very brutal place. Sometimes you can't have a civil society with any human rights if you don't have an ultra-hardass running the country, willing to be every bit as brutal as his government's internal enemies.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-01   14:08:07 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: TooConservative (#13)

Saddam was brutal but he kept the peace in Iraq for a long time. Maybe people are starting to better understand why he was so utterly ruthless with the woodchippers.

Since we are quoting British statesmen:

“Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their disposition to put moral chains on their own appetites—in proportion as their love to justice is above their rapacity;—in proportion as their soundness and sobriety of understanding is above their vanity and presumption;—in proportion as they are more disposed to listen to the counsels of the wise and good, in preference to the flattery of knaves. Society cannot exist unless a controlling power upon will and appetite be placed somewhere, and the less of it there is within, the more there is without. It is ordained in the eternal constitution of things that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters.”

(Edmund Burke, A Letter From Mr. Burke To A Member Of The National Assembly, 1791.)

As we can see, people in these places are incapable of placing moral chains upon their appetites. Therefore there are guys like Saddam and Assad who must impose the chains.

nativist nationalist  posted on  2015-03-01   14:28:27 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: nativist nationalist, TooConservative, All (#15)

As we can see, people in these places are incapable of placing moral chains upon their appetites. Therefore there are guys like Saddam and Assad who must impose the chains.

Ah, the Might Makes Right argument. Let's all sing now, boys and girls: Here we go around the merry go round, the merry go round the merry go round.........

SOSO  posted on  2015-03-01   14:43:08 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: SOSO (#16)

Let's all sing now, boys and girls: Here we go around the merry go round, the merry go round the merry go round...

Even so, I notice that Egypt seems much more content with their new general/president.

Al-Sisi is the new Mubarak. And it looks like another long-term marriage to me. Unless the hotheads manage to just shoot him. No doubt, they'll try and he knows what happened to Sadat.

Isn't that the lone happy outcome from any of these miserable Arab Spring debacles our president and our secretaries of state and our precious neocon pundits and major publications sang the virtues of so thoroughly before those countries went down in flames to Islamic fundamentalists?

Seriously, Bush and Obama do deserve to be prosecuted at the Hague. I'd toss in Hitlery to boot but Lurch Kerry isn't guilty enough to join them in the docket. He's just stupid and insufferably arrogant, not a war criminal.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-01   16:55:04 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: TooConservative (#18)

Isn't that the lone happy outcome from any of these miserable Arab Spring debacles our president and our secretaries of state and our precious neocon pundits and major publications sang the virtues of so thoroughly before those countries went down in flames to Islamic fundamentalists?

There is no doubt in my mind that the only reasonably viable solution to the current ISIS version Islamic stir-up short of an all out modern version of an East-West Holy War is a decisive Civil War within Islam in which those on the side of modernity triumph. Unfortunately there is not much doubt in my mind that the preferred victor in that Civil War would not be much more tolerate of other religions and would still pursue Islamic dominance over the world.

So the $64,000 question is, what to do about nationalistic Islamic fundamentalism? There seems little basis for peaceful coexistence.

SOSO  posted on  2015-03-01   17:15:24 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: SOSO, redleghunter (#22)

So the $64,000 question is, what to do about nationalistic Islamic fundamentalism? There seems little basis for peaceful coexistence.

It is a bit narrower than that.

ISIS represents a brutal Sunni caliphate, fully ready to wage offensive war to subdue new lands to Sunni Islam (Wahhabism, Salafism, the harsh Islam of conquest and forcible conversion). So no Christians, no Shi'a or others meaning no Druze, no Alawites (Assad's sect), no Ismailis (the formerly majority version of Shi'ia Islam), no pre-Islamic Yahzidi (ethnic Kurd) mountain tribesmen (whose ancient pagan symbols adorn the Islamic flag of the Kurds, unique to Islamic states). And not even the other varieties of Sunni Muslims are safe from ISIS. For instance, it is hard to imagine they have any warm regards for Sufism which is the kind of Islam most compatible with the West. So Wahhabist/Salafist (Sunni) ISIS is never going to have much in common with the far more philosophical Sufi sects who have good claims to a philosophy that is Islamic but with pre-Islamic elements.

And as bizarre as that dizzying recitation of historical, cultural, sectarian and tribal litany was, I actually only mentioned some of the better known groups from the region. My list is quite abbreviated. Just figuring out ethnicity and religion in the Mideast and understanding the history to try to understand them all is quite a job for anyone. It's a crazy jumble of religion, ethnicity, nationality, much as Reformation Europe became for a few centuries.

It does seem unfair we have to learn so much about these unimportant pissants of the Mideast. So little redeeming quality remaining of the ancient empires of the region who at least managed peaceful trade and relative domestic tranquility and a stable social order.

If I didn't get those mostly straight in my accounting, perhaps redleghunter could offer corrections.

The oil patch just is not a simple place. We ain't in Kansas any more, Toto.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-01   17:52:12 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: TooConservative (#25)

You are correct. A lot more Shia variants out there.

Also some of the lesser groups like the Sabeans and Mandaeans.

Interesting history for both. One or both institute full immersion baptism.

redleghunter  posted on  2015-03-01   19:37:26 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: redleghunter (#30) (Edited)

Also some of the lesser groups like the Sabeans and Mandaeans.

I'd only heard of Sabeans in Yemen and never heard a thing about these gnostic Mandaeans until you mentioned them. But it looks like Uncle Sam managed to import some Iraqi/Iranian gnostics with the rest of the hordes:
In 2002 the US State Department granted Iranian Mandaeans protective refugee status; since then roughly 1,000 have emigrated to the US, now residing in cities such as San Antonio, Texas. On the other hand, the Mandaean community in Iran has increased over the last decade, because of the exodus from Iraq of the main Mandaean community, which used to be 60,000–70,000 strong.
I see on the Mandaean wiki page a mention of two more obscure ethnoreligious groups, Roma and Shabaks. What the heck...?

And trying to understand all those nutty tiny remnant Zoroastrian cults and the various cults that synthesize more than one major religion is completely beyond me. Even a cultural anthropologist would get dizzy.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-01   19:56:59 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: TooConservative (#31)

Yes it is called the land of Babylon for a reason:)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-03-01   23:01:01 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


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