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Title: Congress launches Medal of Honor campaign for ‘American Sniper’ Chris Kyle
Source:
washingtontimes.com
URL Source: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news ... medal-honor-chris-kyle-americ/
Published: Feb 26, 2015
Author: Jacqueline Klimas
Post Date: 2015-02-27 10:03:05 by Gatlin
Keywords: None
Views: 17914
Comments: 87
A Texas congressman introduced a bill Thursday that would ask the president to posthumously award the Medal of Honor to Chris Kyle, a Navy SEAL whose life was chronicled in the movie “American Sniper.” Rep. Roger Williams, Texas Republican, said Kyle should receive the Medal of Honor for his actions during Operation Iraqi Freedom that saved “countless American lives.” “There is no doubt that this true American hero is worthy of our nation’s highest military honor,” Mr. Williams said in a statement. “While the Medal of Honor will not bring back a husband, father, son and a model Texan, we owe Chris Kyle and his family a great deal of gratitude for his relentless devotion to his country.” Kyle is credited with being the deadliest sniper in American history. He was killed two years ago when a veteran he brought to a gun range who was suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder turned the gun on Kyle. The veteran, Eddie Ray Routh, was found guilty earlier this week and sentenced to life in prison. The Medal of Honor must be awarded by the president, but there is historical precedent for members of Congress offering legislation to encourage the president to award the medal to certain individuals, Mr. Williams‘ office said in a statement.
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#48. To: sneakypete (#47)
You talking about someone else? Roy Benavidez died in the US in 1998.
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
Sorry. I saw the letter R along with the word captive,and thought you were asking about Rocky Versace. The letter "B" should have been a good clue,but I had just posted to you about Rocky,and made a mistake. Roy was never a POW.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
Ah. Ok now I know who you are talking about.
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
Okay, sure. I don't get the part where you have rescue teams at the ready with choppers available but that somehow the only weapon that guy could grab is a knife. Did the other rescue teams take all the actual guns on the base or something? To me, sending out a soldier so unarmed sounds like a courtmartial for his superiors who ran that base. No guns for a special forces operative? Obviously I am a hopeless civvy because I really can't imagine that situation on a foreign base in proximity to hostile troops where you are assembling and launching your top combat teams for rescue missions and one of them ends up having to go out without a gun. We're Americans. We do believe in providing firearms for our soldiers. As to the rest of your post, I've read similar accounts before years back. It always makes me think that Vietnam was an insanely mismanaged war that wasted a lot of lives. Not as professional as the kinds of operations we ran in Iraq. Not even comparable.
And no one there had so much as a handgun to give him? Really? Surely you can see why I find this incredible. Special forces are your most expensive and valuable troops. I just can't get past how he ended up in the jungle without a gun. I wouldn't ever try to disarm anyone. I would shoot or not shoot.
I never realized the Pentagon was such a hotbed of predestinarians.
I see your point. Lincoln's armies did him no good until he got rid of McClellan and appointed Grant. You have to have soldiers who are capable and aggressive. But that story of one man and one knife would likely turn out differently if the enemy was occupying high ground with good visibility and had machine guns in place to pin down the Yankee soldiers. So I also see why you suggest the importance of seeking Lady Luck's favor.
I was mostly getting at how we talk about the WW II Brit commandos and the American UDF and early Rangers and the SEALS and so on. But we somehow pretend these were unique in history until we Anglos came up with the idea. Of course, the Ghurka would probably see it a little differently. To them, the worst thing a Ghurka could do was to show the slightest fear or regard for their own safety. It's all do-or-die for them. A Ghurka running from a battle is almost unimaginable and they would likely get a knife from any other Ghurka who caught them. They did have their death cult aspect. The Ghurka and their history are fascinating in many ways. Too bad we can't let them sneak across our borders instead of these other Third World hordes in this latest land rush to sign up for American welfare cards.
There is only 1 Bright Light team per launch site,but there may be several teams deployed at any one time. If that team is already in the air and the process of rescuing another team that called in earlier,you are just going to have to do the best you can do until they are freed up. Not to mention all the gun ships and other tactical aircraft that go along with them. You will get a radio message telling you to escape and evade the best you can because there are no assets available to come after you. We once had a SVN AF Pilot with his Korean War era "King Bee" helicopter come into a hot LZ to pick us up after the US helicopter company assigned to us refused to try again after the first time because the lead pilot took too many hits and said it "too dangerous" to try to land. I told him if he thought it was dangerous up there,he should land and see how he likes it down here. I think he was probably put off by the 12.7mm,the 20mm,and the 37 mm anti-aircraft fire. I remember on one gun run the lead Cobra gun ship got 14 secondary explosions from his rocket run. I ended up "talking" with this guy on aol back in the early 90's,when I saw a post he made about his first combat mission in VN as a Cobra pilot,and how he asked himself "wtf have I gotten myself into now?",and how he thought there was no chance at all he would live long enough to serve another 11 months of that stuff. Anyhow,the VN AF pilot had been out screwing around and listening in on the radio,and he broke into the transmission and I heard a voice with a VN accent say "No sweat! I come get you!". And he did,with the door gunner on one side firing his WW-2 A6 Browning out the one door,and his co-pilot leaning out the window on the other side and shooting NVA with his 45 that were trying to rush the helicopter. I was working as a squad leader with a Hatchet Force platoon at the time,and since he could only carry out 1 squad at a time,he dumped me and my squad off on the airfield at Ben Het and made three more trips to get everybody else out. You know you were in a bad situation when the airfield at Ben Het was thought to be a safer place to drop you off to wait for a ride back to the camp. They had been surrounded for about 6 months and cut off by the NVA,and the only way in or out of there for supplies or anything else was by air. They were a little jumpy and trigger happy,so I made damn sure I took my jungle hat off and faced the berm when we got out of that unmarked helicopter wearing black fatigues with a load of armed Asians so they could see my face and my beard. I wasn't in CCS so I obviously wasn't there when Roy took his solo rescue ride,but I am GUESSING what happened was the Bright Light team wasn't available,but there was a slick sitting on the pad and the pilot heard about them being shot up and knew they were on their own,so he decided on his own to take off and see what he could do. Roy decided on the spur of the moment to grab a medics bag and go with him. They were PROBABLY thinking the slick MIGHT be able to land to pull them out if they could get enough tac air to suppress fire,and Roy would use the supplies in the medics bag to treat the wounded to keep them from dying. Then they got there and the ground fire was too intense to land where the team was,so Roy told the pilot to drop him off in a nearby clearing and he would go in on his own. Spur of the moment decision based entirely on what was possible,what wasn't possible,what needed to be done,and having the stones to do it. Did the other rescue teams take all the actual guns on the base or something? Was that a serious question? I carried a back up gun for my back up gun. So did everybody else on the teams that I knew about. Roy wasn't working on a team at that time. IIRC,he was still recovering from injuries/wounds from a previous tour,and was working a support job at the launch site. Plus he was attending Mass,so his Bowie knife was all he needed. If the launch site had been attacked,he would have had plenty of time to run grab his weapon and web gear. If he had been wandering away from the launch site,he would have been carrying firearms To me, sending out a soldier so unarmed sounds like a courtmartial for his superiors who ran that base. NOBODY "sent him out". This was the US Army Special Forces,not the US Navy. No insult implied,but we didn't wait around for orders when we saw something that needed to be done. We made our own damn decisions. Roy saw something that needed to be done,so he did it. In this case he went out to provide medical care,not fight. When he left the launch site the plan was to land,take on the wounded,and take off to fly them to a army field hospital for surgery,while Roy used the supplies in the medics bag in the rear to keep them living long enough to make it to a field hospital. And as redleghunter has noted,there is never a shortage of loaded weapons laying around on any battlefield. Once again,you adapt to the changing situation,and do what you have to do to complete the mission. Obviously I am a hopeless civvy because I really can't imagine that situation on a foreign base in proximity to hostile troops where you are assembling and launching your top combat teams for rescue missions and one of them ends up having to go out without a gun. As I have written before,he was attending Mass when they heard the radio call. The slick getting ready to take off was sitting on the airstrip with a warmed up engine,and the pilot was winding it up and getting ready to leave to go see what he could do with his one helicopter. Roy didn't have time to run and get his weapon and web gear,so he just grabbed the medic bag and ran for the slick. AND....,it was NOT a foreign base. It was an American base. It just happened to be a small one. I've read similar accounts before years back. It always makes me think that Vietnam was an insanely mismanaged war that wasted a lot of lives. Not as professional as the kinds of operations we ran in Iraq. Not even comparable. Are you really trying to compare covert jungle warfare with overt conventional warfare in the open desert and in cities using conventional forces? Ever see the movie Black Hawk Down? If not,watch it and note how the Special Forces NCO's that come in to organize and lead the Ranger defense operate in comparison to the Rangers. Nobody ordered them to do it,they just saw that it needed to be done so they went in and did what needed to be done. Their mission was to run around in the enemy's back yard,gather intelligence,commit sabotage,and disrupt the enemy in any way they could. That is one of the things that SF does. You were in the Navy,and you sailed around on boats. That was what you did. Different missions,different mindsets.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
I never realized I represented the Pentagram.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
When you mentioned the berm at a forward firebase, you reminded me of that scene from John Wayne's Green Beret. I think that movie was an eye-opener for a lot of people about what ground fighting in Vietnam really meant. Growing up and being a kid, I simply had no idea of what the war was like for those who got drafted, very little idea even of what the terrain of Vietnam was like. They didn't cover that in Weekly Reader, if you recall those things. Of course, a movie is never the real thing. But even if it is a thing that "you have to be there" to really grasp, being able to visualize these combat situations keeps the public from being totally clueless. I only thought that Green Beret probably made things look much easier than they actually were on the ground for our troops. It was a murky war from what I can tell, even for those who fought it. We hadn't really had a war where it was so hard to tell friendly civvies from hostiles. Very very different from WW II in that way. When we advanced on Berlin, we didn't have to worry about French or Belgians shooting us in the back because they were so busy licking their wounds and kissing our ass for liberating them from the Nazis. So Green Beret remained my favorite of the Vietnam movies even though the grittiness of Apocalypse Now might have been closer to what our troops on the ground experienced. And it did have John Wayne. : ) I think the military has tried to double-down on professionalism and the modern electronic battlefield as well as extensive development and use of special forces. The Vietnam draftees in a very unpopular war could never have matched far more modern volunteer forces with advanced tech and full support (at least initially) from a nation terrified by 9/11 and stampeded into a foolish invasion of Iraq. Of course, I don't think you could really directly compare the troops. There will be such huge variations in quality of recruits, quality of leadership, etc. Those were some great stories you related. You lived in interesting times even if you probably wished they weren't quite so intensely interesting at the time. Even so, why wouldn't the pilot give him his own sidearm? Well, maybe I won't get it because I wasn't there and there's a lot more to it than my simple notions 40 years after the fact. There wasn't even room in the medkit for a little pocket gun? Yeah, I know, I wasn't there. And I obviously don't understand how the military works.
Just a theological joke I thought Red might like.
The best movie about combat in VN/the jungle is "We Were Soldiers Once,and Young". Maybe even the best war movie ever made because it wasn't one dimensional. "Hamburger Hill" runs a close second. even though the grittiness of Apocalypse Now might have been closer to what our troops on the ground experienced. Apocalypse Now was a freaking cartoon. The parts that didn't disgust me had me laughing. It was some weird Hollywood writers idea of what drugged out combat and VN were like. Another really good movie about war that shows realistic SF operations is "Black Hawk Down",even though SF plays a minor secondary role. It is mostly about the Rangers. Even so, why wouldn't the pilot give him his own sidearm? I dunno. Maybe he didn't think about it,maybe/probably Roy didn't ask about it,or maybe he just thought he would need it if he were shot down.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
That was the best war movie. Pete, was it you or a buddy who listened to that fight on a radio?
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
I was the guy listening in and giving the General hell during the Hamburger Hill fight. I was at our radio relay site (leghorn) in Laos at the time,and listening in on the radio. I still laugh everytime I think about the General spitting and sputtering and damn near stroking out when I told him "Any fool can talk shit from 12 thousand feet. If you want your men to charge up that damn hill again,why not land and lead them yourself?" The words MoFo,SOB,and cowardly piece of shit may have also been mentioned. He thought it was one of his own men talking to him,and was going nuts demanding I give him my name and rank. Every time I would laugh at him and say "You don't know,do you,you stupid MoFo"? Generals HATE for enlisted swine to talk to them like that. I had been listening in and went ballistic when he was talking to that 17 year old radio operator that was crying and saying "my platoon leader,platoon sgt,and squad leader are all dead!",and instead of talking to him in a gentle fatherly tone to calm him down,started screaming orders and threats of court martial at him and calling him a coward. That was the point where I lost it and went after that arrogant SOB. Leaders LEAD their men by example and calm demeanor. They don't beat up on them mentally while they are suffering. IMHO,that General (IIRC,his call sign was "Black Jack",which leads me to believe he was a descendant of Pershing)should have been court-martialed and ran out of the army,but we all know that doesn't happen to "legacy officers". He was truly a incompetent SOB that seemed to only care about his own glory and didn't give a damn about the men under him that were doing all the fighting and dying. I have no doubt he put himself in for,and got a DSC and Legion of Merit for that action,and never set foot on the ground. To finish off,the battle scene in "we were soldiers" happened in 1965. I went on a few hikes in the hills surrounding that valley in late 68 to late 69,and found the people living there then to be as unfriendly as they were in 1965 when the 1st Cav went to visit. A bad,BAD place to visit.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
Your exchanges triggered some memories with your mention of “rescue teams at the ready with choppers available.” Jim Obenauf - This is an early story about a pilot who much later became a USAF rescue helicopter pilot in Nam. His assignment after the B-47 was to the B-58 where he spent a number of years. He was sent to Nam as a helicopter pilot after the B-58 was deactivated. On one of his rescues, he picked up his old crew member from the B-58 who had ejected from an F-4 for an exciting reunion. I ran into Jim at the Carswell O’Club where a homecoming party was being held from him after his return from Nam. I had no idea he was in the area and it was a pleasant surprise to see him again. Link: "Goodyear Theatre" The Obenauf Story (1959). Norbert Gotner - This is a story about a crew member I served with in the B-58. Our paths kept crossing for many years. He came from the B-52 to the B-58. He then volunteered for Missiles. I would see him often after that because he was at our weather divert base. I lost contact with him after I went to the FB-111. I heard he was downed in Laos while I was in B-52s out of Guam. I was in Air Command and Staff College when I was learned he was alive and being released. I was leaving ACSC when he arrived and I was his sponsor for indoctrination. I told him what to expect at ACSC and he told me what I would find Ubon like since I was on my way there. I lost contact with Norb after that. Ernie Brace - I included this link link because he posted a nice note about Norb in the link above. I remembered reading his name before but I never knew his story. I found it most interesting. I met a few of the Air America pilots when the stopped over for some R&R at Ubon. Robert Panek - This is about a crew member and neighbor who entered the B-58 program with me. He left the B-58 a year before the program ended and he was downed in a “Wild Weasel” the month the B-58 was retired. These folks are not here to tell their stories. I thought I would share them.
I forgot the failed and incredibly expensive B-58's. A real turkey. Convair and the B-58 naturally bring to mind the uber-turkey of the postwar Air Force, the Convair B-36.
A real turkey. Ben Franklin considered the turkey to be hardy, intelligent, and beautiful bird. In fact, he even lobbied to have the wild turkey designated as young America's national symbol. We should keep in mind that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and remember the wild turkey does have a attributes that should appeal to anyone. The B-58 Hustler was an amazing machine, state of the art on "bleeding edge" technology for the time. I believe I logged more time in the Hustler than anyone. I was in the program from 1960 to help form the first operational Wing and had the honor of flying in the last one to the boneyard in 1970.
He also recommended that the Republic adopt and use Greek as a national language. Ben Franklin said a lot of stuff.
Three times as expensive as operating B-52's which packed far more punch and versatility. Today, we still fly the B-52 and will do so into the 2030's. And the B-58 is long gone.
That video makes my case. What an appalling design.
You know a lot about Ben Franklin. It is obvious that you are a student of Ben Franklin...you have learned your lessons well.
Not at all. I always thought he was a bit overrated in our textbooks. Many others were far more important to how the country formed and what it became.
The B-36 reminds me of one of the Russian bombers we see still flying.
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
The Tupolev Tu-95 is 62 years old and still going strong:
Hey, Pete, I talked with you a ways back about the book Black Hawk Down and you were going to read it. Did you ever get around to it?
I'm sorry to say that I haven't.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
Good military history book to teach young leaders.
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
Hard to believe the nineties could be history. I must be getting old.
Had an Army Captain brief me he was going to the training area with his artillery battery and should be mission complete before dark and back to the motorpool. He told me he was not taking out the unit night vision goggles since they would be back before dark. I then pulled out the line from "Blackhawk Down" where someone made the same comment. My battalion commander smiled and said "what my XO just told you, learn from it."
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
It was an exciting book. I've probably read it 4 times. I'm not a military person at all but I was shocked how useless the regular army guys were considered to be by the rangers. I was equally shocked how the rangers didn't seem like anything special either. The SF guys, they weren't called SF, it was something else, they were freaking unbelievable.
Commandos. Shughaurt and Gordon were SF-Delta, and both won the MoH. You can read about them on Wikipedia.
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
Yes, Delta, that's it.
Delta originated as "Detachment B-52" with the 5th Special Forces Group in VN. Even that is only partially true because most (all?) of the original operators were guys TDY to the 5th from the 1st on Okinawa. There were 3 elements of the original "Special Operations Group",Delta,Sigma,and Omega. Delta ran recon missions all over VN,and Sigma and Omega ran recon operations in Cambodia and Laos and later became know as "C and C detachment". I can't remember for sure right now which countries Sigma and Omega specialized in,but I THINK Sigma operated in Laos,and Omega operated in Cambodia. And of course there was always some "bleed over" with all of them,and on occasional each ran missions in the areas generally covered by the other detachments as needed. I was in C and C myself (FOB 2),and had a lot of friends in Delta from my time with the 1st Group on Okinawa. Delta was based at Nha Trang,and they had the best damn NCO club in VN,and possibly in the entire US Army. I used to go there to eat and visit friends when I was in Nha Trang. They had a first class kitchen,too. It was a Top Secret operation and compound though,and you didn't get in there unless the guards at the gate knew you personally. When the US Army needed a specialized unit to do all sorts of "non-regular army" stuff in the 70's,it was the senior officer and NCO leadership of Detachment B-52 they picked to set it up and run it,so naturally they called it "Delta". You could volunteer for Delta until you were blue in the face,but you didn't get picked unless people already in Delta knew you and had operated with you and could vouch for you. Most (all?) of the early Delta guys didn't really volunteer so much as they were recruited. A couple of senior NCO's or officers you knew from past assignments would show up and ask you if you wanted to join them and do some interesting unspecified things. If you said "Yes",you were immediately reassigned there. No glory hounds were welcome. If you couldn't keep your mouth shut about what you had done and were doing,you didn't get selected no matter how much rank you had or what you had done. Pretty much every career SF NCO and Officer at Bragg knew people who were in Delta and where their training areas were,but nobody asked any questions or said anything. These people understood security and the "need to know".
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
For the regular Army types two points. The first is they were actually assigned there to be facility security for the Rangers/SOF and a quick reaction force to rescue any Rangers/SOF needing assistance. Their role evolved to be much more. Secondly, this was the first urban COIN fight for regular Army troops since Vietnam. The US has a horrible historical record of "first battles." Which is a good book recommendation "America's First Battles." Recommend it. The amazing SF or SOF were Delta Force. They are what is called "black" SOF. The Rangers and SF Green berets are what is called "white" SOF. Different target sets and purposes. Later in OIF and OEF the Rangers split between white and black given the need. In Iraq mostly black. The SF Green Berets focused on training host nation SF and assisting them on direct action missions. If you found Blackhawk Down interesting I highly recommend "Not a Good Day to Die". It is about the early weeks of OEF during Operation Anaconda. You won't put it down. Once again many first battle lessons learned. "Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
Great history lesson Pete. Wasn't there a period of time between Vietnam and Operation Eagle Claw (Iran hostage rescue attempt) where the SF units were stood down?
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
I was already out of the army by then,but SF was cut waaaaay back by the "wear red and march in a straight line" army that neither understood them or liked them. Then terrorists started operating as organized international units in the 70's,and the conventional military in general and the army specifically was forced to recognize they didn't have the ability and the flexibility to deal with threats of that sort,so it was decided to let "Charging Charlie" Beckwith form the unit he had been trying to form for several years. Since he had commanded Delta Project in VN,he named the new unit "Delta",and went right to his Delta Force personnel roster to recruit the core members of his new command. Being able to pick and choose experienced unconventional warriors who all knew one another and who had worked together before really simplified getting his new command up and running. It wouldn't be stretching the truth very far to say that Delta already existed,and just needed to be pulled back together again. Operation Eagle Claw where Jim-Mah Carter and the military geniuses that gathered around him and turned into the cluster-kj8w you just knew it had to become (putting PC squids in charge of ground operations? Who would think that could possibly go wrong?)led to a the formation of the Special Operations Command we have today that has their own air assets and other support units that work and train with the ground combat units and each other so that those same mistakes are never made again. SOC may have members and senior brass from all branches of the service,but they are all Indians working for the same Chief. You can NOT hope to run any successful combat operation when you have as many Chiefs as you have Indians,with all of them giving their own orders and defending their own turf and leadership roles. Now they all work WITH each other instead of working against each other in some sort of domination contest.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
Yes, great history! Thanks. Oh, the destructive blunderings of power-mad, incompetent politicians. Those rotten bastards.
Again, a great run down. A history not many followed.
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
I probably had a special interest in that sort of thing that most people didn't share.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
#49. To: redleghunter (#48)
You talking about someone else? Roy Benavidez died in the US in 1998.
#50. To: sneakypete (#49)
#51. To: sneakypete (#38)
There were always Bright Light rescue teams on standby at the launch sites. Every recon team took turns pulling Bright Light duty,and there was never any shortage of volunteers to go in with them when needed.
#52. To: sneakypete (#46)
As for Roy,he HAD his weapon,rucksack,and web gear nearby,but at the time he was working in a support role at the launch site,and had been attending Mass when they all heard the distress call. The helicopters were leaving immediately to try to pick them up,and Roy didn't have the time to run to his tent and pick up his web gear and weapon. Helicopter crews at launch sites remained in or around their helicopters the whole day,and were ready to take off right NOW if needed. If you wanted to get on one,you had better be there when he cranks up because he won't wait for you.
Do yourself a favor and never try to disarm any SF guys you may find wandering around in your AO.
#53. To: sneakypete, redleghunter (#40)
If you are ever given a chance to pick between being lucky or being smart,just hope you are smart enough to pick "lucky".
#54. To: sneakypete (#45)
If you don't have the right man in position,all the guns and knives in the world are ineffective.
#55. To: sneakypete (#43)
Find a professional combat arms soldier that ignores the history and courage of the Ghurkas.
#56. To: TooConservative (#51)
Okay, sure. I don't get the part where you have rescue teams at the ready with choppers available but that somehow the only weapon that guy could grab is a knife.
#57. To: TooConservative (#53)
I never realized the Pentagon was such a hotbed of predestinarians.
#58. To: sneakypete (#56)
(Edited)
I was working as a squad leader with a Hatchet Force platoon at the time,and since he could only carry out 1 squad at a time,he dumped me and my squad off on the airfield at Ben Het and made three more trips to get everybody else out. You know you were in a bad situation when the airfield at Ben Het was thought to be a safer place to drop you off to wait for a ride back to the camp. They had been surrounded for about 6 months and cut off by the NVA,and the only way in or out of there for supplies or anything else was by air. They were a little jumpy and trigger happy,so I made damn sure I took my jungle hat off and faced the berm when we got out of that unmarked helicopter wearing black fatigues with a load of armed Asians so they could see my face and my beard.
Are you really trying to compare covert jungle warfare with overt conventional warfare in the open desert and in cities using conventional forces?
As I have written before,he was attending Mass when they heard the radio call. The slick getting ready to take off was sitting on the airstrip with a warmed up engine,and the pilot was winding it up and getting ready to leave to go see what he could do with his one helicopter. Roy didn't have time to run and get his weapon and web gear,so he just grabbed the medic bag and ran for the slick.
#59. To: sneakypete (#57)
#60. To: TooConservative (#58)
reminded me of that scene from John Wayne's Green Beret. I think that movie was an eye-opener for a lot of people about what ground fighting in Vietnam really meant. Growing up and being a kid, I simply had no idea of what the war was like for those who got drafted, very little idea even of what the terrain of Vietnam was like.
#61. To: sneakypete (#60)
The best movie about combat in VN/the jungle is "We Were Soldiers Once,and Young".
#62. To: GarySpFC (#61)
Pete, was it you or a buddy who listened to that fight on a radio?
#63. To: TooConservative (#51)
(Edited)
#64. To: Gatlin (#63)
(Edited)
Of course, I am a notorious B-52 fanboi. : ) Through FY 1961, the total cost of the B-58 program was $3 billion. A highly complex aircraft, it also required considerable maintenance, much of which required specialized equipment and ground personnel. For comparison, the average maintenance cost per flying hour for the B-47 was $361, for the B-52 it was $1,025 and for the B-58 it was $1,440. The B-58 also cost three times as much to operate as the B-52. The cost of maintaining and operating the two operational B-58 wings equaled that of six wings of B-52s. 
#65. To: TooConservative (#64)
(Edited)
What really did the plane in was that it was obsolete shortly after it became operational. When Francis Gary Powers was shot down by an SA-2 at 70,000 feet it was determined that the only way a bomber was going to survive was at very low altitude. The B-58 was not particularly well suited to low level operations. By some accounts it rode very rough down low and the crews took a real beating. The J-79s guzzled fuel down low, greatly reducing the B-58's already marginal range.
#66. To: Gatlin (#65)
Ben Franklin considered the turkey to be hardy, intelligent, and beautiful bird. In fact, he even lobbied to have the wild turkey designated as young America's national symbol.
#67. To: Gatlin (#65)
The B-58 Hustler was an amazing machine, state of the art on "bleeding edge" technology for the time.
#68. To: Gatlin (#65)
#69. To: TooConservative (#66)
Ben Franklin said a lot of stuff.
#70. To: Gatlin (#69)
It is obvious that you are a student of Ben Franklin...
#71. To: GatlIn (#64)
#72. To: GarySpFC (#71)
The B-36 reminds me of one of the Russian bombers we see still flying.
#73. To: sneakypete (#56)
Ever see the movie Black Hawk Down? If not,watch it and note how the Special Forces NCO's that come in to organize and lead the Ranger defense operate in comparison to the Rangers.
#74. To: Biff Tannen (#73)
Hey, Pete, I talked with you a ways back about the book Black Hawk Down and you were going to read it. Did you ever get around to it?
#75. To: Biff Tannen (#73)
#76. To: redleghunter (#75)
#77. To: Biff Tannen, GarySpFc (#76)
#78. To: redleghunter (#77)
#79. To: Biff Tannen, Sneakypete, Redleghunterppp (#78)
(Edited)
#80. To: GarySpFC (#79)
#81. To: GarySpFC, Biff Tannen, Redleghunter (#79)
Commandos. Shughaurt and Gordon were SF-Delta, and both won the MoH.
#82. To: Biff Tannen (#78)
t was an exciting book. I've probably read it 4 times. I'm not a military person at all but I was shocked how useless the regular army guys were considered to be by the rangers. I was equally shocked how the rangers didn't seem like anything special either. The SF guys, they weren't called SF, it was something else, they were freaking unbelievable.
#83. To: sneakypete, GarySpFc (#81)
#84. To: redleghunter (#83)
Wasn't there a period of time between Vietnam and Operation Eagle Claw (Iran hostage rescue attempt) where the SF units were stood down?
#85. To: redleghunter, sneakypete (#83)
#86. To: sneakypete (#84)
Operation Eagle Claw where Jim-Mah Carter and the military geniuses that gathered around him and turned into the cluster-kj8w you just knew it had to become (putting PC squids in charge of ground operations? Who would think that could possibly go wrong?)led to a the formation of the Special Operations Command we have today that has their own air assets and other support units that work and train with the ground combat units and each other so that those same mistakes are never made again. SOC may have members and senior brass from all branches of the service,but they are all Indians working for the same Chief. You can NOT hope to run any successful combat operation when you have as many Chiefs as you have Indians,with all of them giving their own orders and defending their own turf and leadership roles. Now they all work WITH each other instead of working against each other in some sort of domination contest.
#87. To: redleghunter (#86)
A history not many followed.
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