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Title: Congress launches Medal of Honor campaign for ‘American Sniper’ Chris Kyle
Source:
washingtontimes.com
URL Source: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news ... medal-honor-chris-kyle-americ/
Published: Feb 26, 2015
Author: Jacqueline Klimas
Post Date: 2015-02-27 10:03:05 by Gatlin
Keywords: None
Views: 17850
Comments: 87
A Texas congressman introduced a bill Thursday that would ask the president to posthumously award the Medal of Honor to Chris Kyle, a Navy SEAL whose life was chronicled in the movie “American Sniper.” Rep. Roger Williams, Texas Republican, said Kyle should receive the Medal of Honor for his actions during Operation Iraqi Freedom that saved “countless American lives.” “There is no doubt that this true American hero is worthy of our nation’s highest military honor,” Mr. Williams said in a statement. “While the Medal of Honor will not bring back a husband, father, son and a model Texan, we owe Chris Kyle and his family a great deal of gratitude for his relentless devotion to his country.” Kyle is credited with being the deadliest sniper in American history. He was killed two years ago when a veteran he brought to a gun range who was suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder turned the gun on Kyle. The veteran, Eddie Ray Routh, was found guilty earlier this week and sentenced to life in prison. The Medal of Honor must be awarded by the president, but there is historical precedent for members of Congress offering legislation to encourage the president to award the medal to certain individuals, Mr. Williams‘ office said in a statement.
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#1. To: Gatlin (#0)
I'd be more moved by a request from the Joint Chiefs or the appropriate board at the Pentagon. I think that the medals get very questionable when they are awarded as the result of some sleazy pols lobbying for it. The Pentagon should award its own medals. I'd prefer the president not control the award of any medals, military or civilian.
I think what he did was courageous and I admire him. These are the actions I more closely associate with being awarded a Medal of Honor.
BTW - Thank you for being nice to me again. Were you having a bad morning?
Every poster should be required to be nice. This is a forum of thoughts and opinions. The more different opinions expressed, the more dynamic it is. The more different people will flood it. LP turned out to be the echo chamber for the 70 year old anarchist. Everyone else was pushed out or banned. Unfortunately, like LP, many posters use the forum not for discussion, but for a billboard for their personal agendas. And if you sell crack... you're not gonna want the police anywhere near your billboard.
Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy
I reviewed them. Chris Kyle's exploits don't match those of the ten listed. This Texas pol wouldn't be lobbying for this if Kyle didn't have a book/movie deal. The pol is piggybacking on to Kyle to aggrandize himself to the voters. Not that that will hurt him any with Texas voters but the rest of us shouldn't fail to see it for what it is.
I reviewed them. Chris Kyle's exploits don't match those of the ten listed. The pol is piggybacking on to Kyle to aggrandize himself to the voters. This came to mind immediately when I read the article.
I saw that half of AZ had their cell/phone/internet knocked out when some vandals dug up and cut a heavy shielded fiber optic cable in the desert. CenturyLink fixed it in a matter of hours. Maybe a test run like the attack on that CA power transformer station and regional telephone systems? FreeBeacon: Vandalism in Arizona Shut Down Internet, Cellphone, Telephone Service Across State
It was called "vandalism" ... "maybe a test run" is more correct. Back to an earlier post: You should find this interesting: Capt. Humbert Roque Versace.
Unique in being a (posthumous) MOH award to a POW. And not tainted by political influence over the award itself, unlike this Kyle matter. It probably eats McCain up to think that some other POW won the MOH, not him.
MoH requires one to voluntarily risk his life "beyond the call of duty", at a time place and under circumstances would completely justify doing nothing of the kind. I haven't seen the movie and am not sure I could stomach it, given it basically applauds an unjustified military invasion that killed hundreds of thousands, if not (indirectly) millions of innocent people, but simply being extremely good at what one does, which Kyle obviously was, does not make MoH material.
If Kyle deserved the MoH, the submission should have been made at the time of his service:
Maybe to a posturing fool who doesn't have the first clue as to what a MoH represents,but the rest of us know you are a using a dead man's bones for personal political gain. If you had any shame,you would be ashamed of yourself. I hope those who voted for you are ashamed of themselves,because they should be.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
Ping
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
No!!!!! Say it ain't so!!!!!
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
Every time I think about Rocky singing "God Bless America" in the rain as he waits for his executioner to show up to kill him it brings a tear to my eyes.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
Every time I hear "God Bless Ameica" ... I think of him and how he showed courage beyond belief right to the very end.
O'Sullivan, Christopher Jo, (KIA), USA - Awarded: DSC - Vietnam War For years my college military fraternity alumni have attempted to contact DoD to reconsider the above officer for the MoH. I'll dig up the DSC citation if I still have it. He had a ticket home after a 1 yr tour. Heard his old team was pinned down in the jungle. Turned back went back to them and fought and died with them. When a relief went out he and the entire team were dead with 80-100 enemy dead among them.
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
I don't know if it is still true today,but when I was in the army it was generally considered to be true that the only way to get a DSC was to be put in for the MoH and have it denied due to not having the required number of credible witnesses. In other words,almost everybody understood that you had EARNED a MoH,even if you didn't receive it. IIRC,Robert Howard was awarded 2 DSC's before he got the MoH. All while he was a E-5 or E-6. When I met him he was a E-7 and waiting to hear if he got the MoH the 3rd time around. All this within 13 months. Everybody that ever met or knew him was in awe of him even before he got it,and even though everybody was happy for him when he finally did get the award,he didn't need it and it did nothing to add to the respect people that knew him had for him. It was just a formal recognition of who and what he was. I'm sure the same can be said for Mr.O'Sullivan. The character required was already there long before the action that brought it to the surface and proved it. Roy Benevidez is another that I hold in absolute awe. He earned the MoH while serving was CCS MACV-SOG,when he went on a 1 man Bright Light mission into Cambodia to rescue a recon team that was surrounded with everyone wounded and unable to move. This man jumped off a helicopter all alone in a small clearing in Cambodia that was surrounded by the NVA,armed with only a Bowie knife,and carrying a medics bag. He then ran about 75 yards THROUGH the NVA to get to the surrounded team and start treating them while fighting off the NVA. I get a chill every time I think about it. I don't care who you are or how high your standards for bravery are,going on a solo Bright Light mission into Cambodia in the late 60's while armed only with a knife takes stones. Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
Or dumb as rocks. Or suicidal. You think the military wants all its soldiers to go on such hopeless missions just because it turned out heroically one time? I don't.
Or dumb as rocks. Or suicidal. I solemnly assure you that Ben was neither. I knew him before any of this happened,and he was a mild-mannered and soft-spoken man that was very friendly to everyone he met,and that he had a lot of friends. He was one of those people that was almost always smiling,and seemed to be happy with life. If being the smartest person in the room is important to you,do yourself a favor and never volunteer for SF training because you will be destined to remain unhappy if you do. I like to think I am pretty smart,and I honestly can't remember a single time I was ever the smartest man in any briefing room or training class. You owe Ben and his family an apology for even suggesting such a thing. And there is no such thing as a stupid Special Forces qualified NCO. Every single one qualifies for admission to the army Officer Candidate School,and a lot end up with battlefield commissions and retire as senior officers. Many served a company commanders and even Battalion Commanders of foreign troops in battle. One SF E-7 from the 1st Group on Okinawa was deployed to South Korean on a TDY training mission with SK Special Forces,and ended up being appointed as the Defense Minister of South Korea by the South Korean president. This happened when there was a joint team party at the end of the training mission to celebrate the successful completion of the mission,and the SK President showed up after Larry (can't remember his last name right now) had a few drinks in him,and the president asked him "What can be done to improve the SK Army?" Larry was drunk enough to tell him,and was appointed Defense Minister on the spot. Since it was/is illegal for US military members to hold positions in foreign govenments,it took the State Department to get him out of that one. He ended up retiring from the army and going to Beriut to lead one of the Christian militia there during the Civil War,and died of a heart attack while home visiting his family,
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
Thanks Pete and spot on. In O'Sullivan's case there were no witnesses left. None survived which is in keeping with your comments. Had the honor of listening to a Roy Benevidez speech back when I was a 2LT when he came to Fort Hood for an Audey Murphy event. The man was shot several times himself doing that rescue. Like all warriors who have been in a fire fight he was confident but humble. He knew Someone was looking out for him and the wounded that day.
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
You honestly think that the Pentagon wants its soldiers to go on such suicidal missions? I think they are more prudent. I see nothing wrong with giving him the medal but I don't think the Pentagon actually wants its soldiers to go into battle so poorly armed and against such overwhelming odds. Just because one guy was lucky enough to get out alive from such an exploit doesn't mean it is a good general practice to encourage among the rank and file. At any rate, I don't see the Pentagon likes sending troops on suicide missions.
Thanks. Another account as well: http://www.roman-catholic-saints.com/roy-benavidez.html
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
No such thing as luck.
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
I'm doubt the War College believes in predestination. The professional military may consider bold tactics exemplary. But not suicidal tactics. Perhaps you could cite other similar missions where they ordered a soldier to drop alone into a jungle armed only with a knife to fight off an unknown number of veteran enemy troops armed with machine guns to provide succor to troops in extremis. But they don't give such orders, do they? And they don't teach it as the expected standard operational procedure for all soldiers to their young officer corp, do they? Maybe you could cite examples of where the military makes it official policy for virtually unarmed soldiers to take on unknown numbers of enemy soldiers alone. Or something from the War College archives extolling such missions as standard military doctrine.
TC no one "plans" such events. RB like many others in military history heard a plea for help from his brothers in arms and acted. This is the point in a Soldier's life where all your training kicks in. He knew what he had to do and what he needed to do it. Pete will tell you that in such a fire fight with wounded on both sides there are plenty of weapons and full magazines around not used to pick up. We see that in the account of RB. Given the choice of a calculated planner or Roy in a fighting position the decision is a no brainer. Roy was out there to save his buddies that day and not seeking glory. Sometimes the most humble have greatness thrust upon them and don't like it.
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
The professional military may consider bold tactics exemplary. But not suicidal tactics. Perhaps you could cite other similar missions where they ordered a soldier to drop alone into a jungle armed only with a knife to fight off an unknown number of veteran enemy troops armed with machine guns to provide succor to troops in extremis. But they don't give such orders, do they? And they don't teach it as the expected standard operational procedure for all soldiers to their young officer corp, do they? Maybe you could cite examples of where the military makes it official policy for virtually unarmed soldiers to take on unknown numbers of enemy soldiers alone. Or something from the War College archives extolling such missions as standard military doctrine. Well the War College types sure do award folks like Benavidez for their actions. No, such situations do have volunteers in such hopeless situations. The pilots would be the first. However these were SF soldiers. No one had to ask. A brother bleeds and the other brothers heed. As Pete commented Roy was a happy humble professional. When I was a young officer and heard him speak there was no "John Wayne" in him at all. He was surprised one day in his life seemed to define him. His main point was to take care of your soldiers and do the right thing always. Simple NCO stuff. No grand standing at all. No, I'm sure Pentagon strategic planners don't have predestination in mind at all when formulating military operations. However the services do employ chaplains. So again, leaders don't ask people to be like Benavidez. Don't order them to be so. Why? Because many line up to help a comrade in need. In fact some leaders have to order folks to stand down.
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
It's admirable because he volunteered and prevailed, saving many lives. That doesn't make it standard recommended policy. Nor should it. I don't doubt the man is a hero and an amazing fellow. But that is not how a professional military fights and wins wars.
This discussion of heroics reminded me of the record of the Ghurka warriors that served the British and Indian armies. Surely the most badass Buddhists in history. Unfortunately, they go into battle chanting their devotion to Kali, the god of death. So it mars their reputation in my mind, however indisputable their bravery and prowess in battle. Looking at the wiki link, I was surprised that even America employs some. No wonder we've never heard a peep of concern about that embassy. Normally, you just guard them with Marines. However admirable the Ghurka troops, I'm not sure we can make our own military quite so formidable, given the recruits within the military's purview to recruit. Certainly our special forces are brave and incredibly capable. But this is not a new thing overall. As much as we credit the British for inventing the modern commando and our own subsequent extensive special forces development through the Cold War era, they are not necessarily any braver than the Ghurka have been for centuries. I think we flatter ourselves a bit by ignoring the Ghurkas conspicuous bravery over the centuries. But then, they can also be described as a heathen death cult, given their well-known devotion to Kali. And we should not ignore that the British empire shamelessly exploited these Nepalese peasants by relying on their service as a way out of abject poverty and only much later doing anything to help Nepal as a country. Why would they? Better to keep the Nepalese in poverty in order to recruit those superb warriors to keep the rotten old British empire on its feet.
That doesn't make it standard recommended policy. Nor should it. I don't doubt the man is a hero and an amazing fellow. But that is not how a professional military fights and wins wars. On the contrary, if soldiers know they are going to die and bleed on the battlefield without knowing some relief is coming, they won't fight effectively. One of the mandatory considerations in the planning process is casualty evacuation and mass casualty rehearsals.
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
I would say the Western model a bit different. Although you get psychos now and then who tried to get themselves killed in combat, they are not usually the type who do so for others. Benavites is what we call altruistic actions. He did not seek glory that day nor death. He sought to come to the aid of men He previously sweat and bled with in training and combat.
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
Well, that day it was just Benevidez coming. I would think he would not recommend to others going into battle against VC with rifles and a few machine guns if you have any choice. I think the military values preparedness. There are circumstances where a knife just isn't enough. Like a machine gun emplacement commanding the high ground. I kinda wonder why the chopper pilot didn't give him his own sidearm? I thought the chopper pilots were officers and had sidearms. For that matter, where was he in Vietnam that, as a special forces man, he didn't have immediate access to weapons? Well, these must have been unusual circumstances to be so rushed for time as to go out with only a knife.
There is far more to being a Special Forces trooper than bravery and being a commando.
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
Thanks for reminding me.
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
Well said!
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
If you read the citation I posted he did not have time to grab his personal weapon.
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
I guess I just can't conceive of any situation where American special forces don't have immediate access to weapons when they are facing or just nearby hostile forces in the field. To me, it seems unthinkable you don't have firepower readily available. I grasp that there may be times when you don't want every soldier on a base armed, even at foreign bases. Or that you would restrict who has firearms on an American military base. But special forces? I would think they would always be trusted to have firearms and would always have access to them.
You have obviously never served in uniform in a combat capacity. Frankly,none of us gave a rabid rats ass WHAT the Pentagram wanted or didn't want. What we knew was that our brothers were out there,surrounded and wounded,and if we didn't go in and get them out they would all die. There were always Bright Light rescue teams on standby at the launch sites. Every recon team took turns pulling Bright Light duty,and there was never any shortage of volunteers to go in with them when needed. There were times the Bright Light teams couldn't launch because of the weather,already being deployed to rescue another team,or even sometimes because we couldn't get the helicopters to go in right away. What make Roy's 1 man Bright Light mission so impressive that he went in all alone and virtually unarmed. There is no such thing as a combat soldier that doesn't respect courage from another soldier,and Roy had it to burn. At any rate, I don't see the Pentagon likes sending troops on suicide missions. ALL SOG missions were generally considered to be suicide missions. We were all volunteers,and we could quit any time we wanted. We were going into Cambodia,Laos,and North Viet Nam to run 6 man recon and special purpose missions in the NVA rest and training areas,and along the Ho Chi Mihn Trail. They even used dogs at times to try and track us down once they found out a team was in their area. When the NVA would find you,you and the other 5 members of our team would have to fight off literally hundreds of NVA to be able to get on a helicopter and get out. And if a team were surrounded and wounded so they couldn't move,we either went in and got them out or they all died because the regular army would not and could not go into Cambodia,Laos,or North VN to get them. We did it ourselves,or it wouldn't get done. We also went in sometimes to try to rescue shot down pilots or to recover classified gear from shot down fighter/bombers. Sometimes we went in with platoons on raid missions,and they were pure combat assault operations and even scarier to me than recon was. It was not unusual for everybody in a platoon or company operation to get wounded or killed on a mission.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
http://www.roman-catholic-saints.com/roy-benavidez.html If the Catholic thing is important to you,make sure you check out the award given to Rocky mentioned above. Rocky had plans to get out of the army and become a Mary Knoll (of all things!) priest when his tour was up. He could have maybe gotten away and avoided capture,but he surrendered so he would be able to give medical care to the two wounded Americans that were with him. The VC were known to just execute POW's that couldn't take care of themselves,so Rocky surrendered to help his friends. Not sure how well a priest as anti-communist as Rocky would have fit in with the Mary Knowllers,though.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
I disagree. If you are ever given a chance to pick between being lucky or being smart,just hope you are smart enough to pick "lucky".
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
Yes,it is. You clearly know nothing about the professional military other than theory. It's WARRIORS that fight and win wars,and any army that doesn't have NCO's and officers like Roy has no hope of battlefield successes.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
Just knew of the link. Gives a more personal account. Never knew how long RB was captive. Do you remember?
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
Find a professional combat arms soldier that ignores the history and courage of the Ghurkas.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
Brotherhood in action.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
It's NOT the knife of the gun. It's the man that holds them. If you don't have the right man in position,all the guns and knives in the world are ineffective.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
ROFLMAO! Do yourself a favor and never try to disarm any SF guys you may find wandering around in your AO. As for Roy,he HAD his weapon,rucksack,and web gear nearby,but at the time he was working in a support role at the launch site,and had been attending Mass when they all heard the distress call. The helicopters were leaving immediately to try to pick them up,and Roy didn't have the time to run to his tent and pick up his web gear and weapon. Helicopter crews at launch sites remained in or around their helicopters the whole day,and were ready to take off right NOW if needed. If you wanted to get on one,you had better be there when he cranks up because he won't wait for you. Roy had no real intention of fighting. His intention was to be on the medical helicopter with a medics bag so he could treat the wounded as they were flying back to the military hospital in VN. THAT is why he just picked up a medics bag and ran for the helicopter. It was all he had time for and in HIS mind the medics bag was the most important piece of equipment he could grab. He didn't know they would be shot out of the LZ while trying to land and that he would have to land in a open area 75 yards away and advance through the NVA by himself to get to the team. That WAS the situation he had to deal with when they got there,so he adapted and did what he had to do.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
In the most strict sense of the word,he was and is a captive forever because he was executed while being a POW. Without looking it up,I think he might have lasted 4 or 5 years before he was executed. Both of the wounded Americans that were with him when he surrendered survived being POW's. One (Lt,later LTC,Nick Rowe that was later executed by Phillipine communists) was a POW for 4.5 years before he escaped and was rescued by an American helicopter passing over a clearing that damn near shot him up because he was wearing black VC PJ's. The pilot noticed the beard and told the door gunners to hold off,and he dropped down for a closer look. He then recognized the man as a West Point classmate of his,and landed and picked him up. I can't remember the name now of the NCO that was with them when they were captured,but IIRC,he later became the CSM of the SWC at Bragg. It was he and Nick Rowe that did the write-ups as witnesses that later got the MoH for Rocky. The NCO was a member of a private SF bulletin board that I was a member of,and he died several years ago of natural causes.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
You talking about someone else? Roy Benavidez died in the US in 1998.
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
Sorry. I saw the letter R along with the word captive,and thought you were asking about Rocky Versace. The letter "B" should have been a good clue,but I had just posted to you about Rocky,and made a mistake. Roy was never a POW.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
Ah. Ok now I know who you are talking about.
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
Okay, sure. I don't get the part where you have rescue teams at the ready with choppers available but that somehow the only weapon that guy could grab is a knife. Did the other rescue teams take all the actual guns on the base or something? To me, sending out a soldier so unarmed sounds like a courtmartial for his superiors who ran that base. No guns for a special forces operative? Obviously I am a hopeless civvy because I really can't imagine that situation on a foreign base in proximity to hostile troops where you are assembling and launching your top combat teams for rescue missions and one of them ends up having to go out without a gun. We're Americans. We do believe in providing firearms for our soldiers. As to the rest of your post, I've read similar accounts before years back. It always makes me think that Vietnam was an insanely mismanaged war that wasted a lot of lives. Not as professional as the kinds of operations we ran in Iraq. Not even comparable.
And no one there had so much as a handgun to give him? Really? Surely you can see why I find this incredible. Special forces are your most expensive and valuable troops. I just can't get past how he ended up in the jungle without a gun. I wouldn't ever try to disarm anyone. I would shoot or not shoot.
I never realized the Pentagon was such a hotbed of predestinarians.
I see your point. Lincoln's armies did him no good until he got rid of McClellan and appointed Grant. You have to have soldiers who are capable and aggressive. But that story of one man and one knife would likely turn out differently if the enemy was occupying high ground with good visibility and had machine guns in place to pin down the Yankee soldiers. So I also see why you suggest the importance of seeking Lady Luck's favor.
I was mostly getting at how we talk about the WW II Brit commandos and the American UDF and early Rangers and the SEALS and so on. But we somehow pretend these were unique in history until we Anglos came up with the idea. Of course, the Ghurka would probably see it a little differently. To them, the worst thing a Ghurka could do was to show the slightest fear or regard for their own safety. It's all do-or-die for them. A Ghurka running from a battle is almost unimaginable and they would likely get a knife from any other Ghurka who caught them. They did have their death cult aspect. The Ghurka and their history are fascinating in many ways. Too bad we can't let them sneak across our borders instead of these other Third World hordes in this latest land rush to sign up for American welfare cards.
There is only 1 Bright Light team per launch site,but there may be several teams deployed at any one time. If that team is already in the air and the process of rescuing another team that called in earlier,you are just going to have to do the best you can do until they are freed up. Not to mention all the gun ships and other tactical aircraft that go along with them. You will get a radio message telling you to escape and evade the best you can because there are no assets available to come after you. We once had a SVN AF Pilot with his Korean War era "King Bee" helicopter come into a hot LZ to pick us up after the US helicopter company assigned to us refused to try again after the first time because the lead pilot took too many hits and said it "too dangerous" to try to land. I told him if he thought it was dangerous up there,he should land and see how he likes it down here. I think he was probably put off by the 12.7mm,the 20mm,and the 37 mm anti-aircraft fire. I remember on one gun run the lead Cobra gun ship got 14 secondary explosions from his rocket run. I ended up "talking" with this guy on aol back in the early 90's,when I saw a post he made about his first combat mission in VN as a Cobra pilot,and how he asked himself "wtf have I gotten myself into now?",and how he thought there was no chance at all he would live long enough to serve another 11 months of that stuff. Anyhow,the VN AF pilot had been out screwing around and listening in on the radio,and he broke into the transmission and I heard a voice with a VN accent say "No sweat! I come get you!". And he did,with the door gunner on one side firing his WW-2 A6 Browning out the one door,and his co-pilot leaning out the window on the other side and shooting NVA with his 45 that were trying to rush the helicopter. I was working as a squad leader with a Hatchet Force platoon at the time,and since he could only carry out 1 squad at a time,he dumped me and my squad off on the airfield at Ben Het and made three more trips to get everybody else out. You know you were in a bad situation when the airfield at Ben Het was thought to be a safer place to drop you off to wait for a ride back to the camp. They had been surrounded for about 6 months and cut off by the NVA,and the only way in or out of there for supplies or anything else was by air. They were a little jumpy and trigger happy,so I made damn sure I took my jungle hat off and faced the berm when we got out of that unmarked helicopter wearing black fatigues with a load of armed Asians so they could see my face and my beard. I wasn't in CCS so I obviously wasn't there when Roy took his solo rescue ride,but I am GUESSING what happened was the Bright Light team wasn't available,but there was a slick sitting on the pad and the pilot heard about them being shot up and knew they were on their own,so he decided on his own to take off and see what he could do. Roy decided on the spur of the moment to grab a medics bag and go with him. They were PROBABLY thinking the slick MIGHT be able to land to pull them out if they could get enough tac air to suppress fire,and Roy would use the supplies in the medics bag to treat the wounded to keep them from dying. Then they got there and the ground fire was too intense to land where the team was,so Roy told the pilot to drop him off in a nearby clearing and he would go in on his own. Spur of the moment decision based entirely on what was possible,what wasn't possible,what needed to be done,and having the stones to do it. Did the other rescue teams take all the actual guns on the base or something? Was that a serious question? I carried a back up gun for my back up gun. So did everybody else on the teams that I knew about. Roy wasn't working on a team at that time. IIRC,he was still recovering from injuries/wounds from a previous tour,and was working a support job at the launch site. Plus he was attending Mass,so his Bowie knife was all he needed. If the launch site had been attacked,he would have had plenty of time to run grab his weapon and web gear. If he had been wandering away from the launch site,he would have been carrying firearms To me, sending out a soldier so unarmed sounds like a courtmartial for his superiors who ran that base. NOBODY "sent him out". This was the US Army Special Forces,not the US Navy. No insult implied,but we didn't wait around for orders when we saw something that needed to be done. We made our own damn decisions. Roy saw something that needed to be done,so he did it. In this case he went out to provide medical care,not fight. When he left the launch site the plan was to land,take on the wounded,and take off to fly them to a army field hospital for surgery,while Roy used the supplies in the medics bag in the rear to keep them living long enough to make it to a field hospital. And as redleghunter has noted,there is never a shortage of loaded weapons laying around on any battlefield. Once again,you adapt to the changing situation,and do what you have to do to complete the mission. Obviously I am a hopeless civvy because I really can't imagine that situation on a foreign base in proximity to hostile troops where you are assembling and launching your top combat teams for rescue missions and one of them ends up having to go out without a gun. As I have written before,he was attending Mass when they heard the radio call. The slick getting ready to take off was sitting on the airstrip with a warmed up engine,and the pilot was winding it up and getting ready to leave to go see what he could do with his one helicopter. Roy didn't have time to run and get his weapon and web gear,so he just grabbed the medic bag and ran for the slick. AND....,it was NOT a foreign base. It was an American base. It just happened to be a small one. I've read similar accounts before years back. It always makes me think that Vietnam was an insanely mismanaged war that wasted a lot of lives. Not as professional as the kinds of operations we ran in Iraq. Not even comparable. Are you really trying to compare covert jungle warfare with overt conventional warfare in the open desert and in cities using conventional forces? Ever see the movie Black Hawk Down? If not,watch it and note how the Special Forces NCO's that come in to organize and lead the Ranger defense operate in comparison to the Rangers. Nobody ordered them to do it,they just saw that it needed to be done so they went in and did what needed to be done. Their mission was to run around in the enemy's back yard,gather intelligence,commit sabotage,and disrupt the enemy in any way they could. That is one of the things that SF does. You were in the Navy,and you sailed around on boats. That was what you did. Different missions,different mindsets.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
I never realized I represented the Pentagram.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
When you mentioned the berm at a forward firebase, you reminded me of that scene from John Wayne's Green Beret. I think that movie was an eye-opener for a lot of people about what ground fighting in Vietnam really meant. Growing up and being a kid, I simply had no idea of what the war was like for those who got drafted, very little idea even of what the terrain of Vietnam was like. They didn't cover that in Weekly Reader, if you recall those things. Of course, a movie is never the real thing. But even if it is a thing that "you have to be there" to really grasp, being able to visualize these combat situations keeps the public from being totally clueless. I only thought that Green Beret probably made things look much easier than they actually were on the ground for our troops. It was a murky war from what I can tell, even for those who fought it. We hadn't really had a war where it was so hard to tell friendly civvies from hostiles. Very very different from WW II in that way. When we advanced on Berlin, we didn't have to worry about French or Belgians shooting us in the back because they were so busy licking their wounds and kissing our ass for liberating them from the Nazis. So Green Beret remained my favorite of the Vietnam movies even though the grittiness of Apocalypse Now might have been closer to what our troops on the ground experienced. And it did have John Wayne. : ) I think the military has tried to double-down on professionalism and the modern electronic battlefield as well as extensive development and use of special forces. The Vietnam draftees in a very unpopular war could never have matched far more modern volunteer forces with advanced tech and full support (at least initially) from a nation terrified by 9/11 and stampeded into a foolish invasion of Iraq. Of course, I don't think you could really directly compare the troops. There will be such huge variations in quality of recruits, quality of leadership, etc. Those were some great stories you related. You lived in interesting times even if you probably wished they weren't quite so intensely interesting at the time. Even so, why wouldn't the pilot give him his own sidearm? Well, maybe I won't get it because I wasn't there and there's a lot more to it than my simple notions 40 years after the fact. There wasn't even room in the medkit for a little pocket gun? Yeah, I know, I wasn't there. And I obviously don't understand how the military works.
Just a theological joke I thought Red might like.
The best movie about combat in VN/the jungle is "We Were Soldiers Once,and Young". Maybe even the best war movie ever made because it wasn't one dimensional. "Hamburger Hill" runs a close second. even though the grittiness of Apocalypse Now might have been closer to what our troops on the ground experienced. Apocalypse Now was a freaking cartoon. The parts that didn't disgust me had me laughing. It was some weird Hollywood writers idea of what drugged out combat and VN were like. Another really good movie about war that shows realistic SF operations is "Black Hawk Down",even though SF plays a minor secondary role. It is mostly about the Rangers. Even so, why wouldn't the pilot give him his own sidearm? I dunno. Maybe he didn't think about it,maybe/probably Roy didn't ask about it,or maybe he just thought he would need it if he were shot down.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
That was the best war movie. Pete, was it you or a buddy who listened to that fight on a radio?
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
I was the guy listening in and giving the General hell during the Hamburger Hill fight. I was at our radio relay site (leghorn) in Laos at the time,and listening in on the radio. I still laugh everytime I think about the General spitting and sputtering and damn near stroking out when I told him "Any fool can talk shit from 12 thousand feet. If you want your men to charge up that damn hill again,why not land and lead them yourself?" The words MoFo,SOB,and cowardly piece of shit may have also been mentioned. He thought it was one of his own men talking to him,and was going nuts demanding I give him my name and rank. Every time I would laugh at him and say "You don't know,do you,you stupid MoFo"? Generals HATE for enlisted swine to talk to them like that. I had been listening in and went ballistic when he was talking to that 17 year old radio operator that was crying and saying "my platoon leader,platoon sgt,and squad leader are all dead!",and instead of talking to him in a gentle fatherly tone to calm him down,started screaming orders and threats of court martial at him and calling him a coward. That was the point where I lost it and went after that arrogant SOB. Leaders LEAD their men by example and calm demeanor. They don't beat up on them mentally while they are suffering. IMHO,that General (IIRC,his call sign was "Black Jack",which leads me to believe he was a descendant of Pershing)should have been court-martialed and ran out of the army,but we all know that doesn't happen to "legacy officers". He was truly a incompetent SOB that seemed to only care about his own glory and didn't give a damn about the men under him that were doing all the fighting and dying. I have no doubt he put himself in for,and got a DSC and Legion of Merit for that action,and never set foot on the ground. To finish off,the battle scene in "we were soldiers" happened in 1965. I went on a few hikes in the hills surrounding that valley in late 68 to late 69,and found the people living there then to be as unfriendly as they were in 1965 when the 1st Cav went to visit. A bad,BAD place to visit.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
Your exchanges triggered some memories with your mention of “rescue teams at the ready with choppers available.” Jim Obenauf - This is an early story about a pilot who much later became a USAF rescue helicopter pilot in Nam. His assignment after the B-47 was to the B-58 where he spent a number of years. He was sent to Nam as a helicopter pilot after the B-58 was deactivated. On one of his rescues, he picked up his old crew member from the B-58 who had ejected from an F-4 for an exciting reunion. I ran into Jim at the Carswell O’Club where a homecoming party was being held from him after his return from Nam. I had no idea he was in the area and it was a pleasant surprise to see him again. Link: "Goodyear Theatre" The Obenauf Story (1959). Norbert Gotner - This is a story about a crew member I served with in the B-58. Our paths kept crossing for many years. He came from the B-52 to the B-58. He then volunteered for Missiles. I would see him often after that because he was at our weather divert base. I lost contact with him after I went to the FB-111. I heard he was downed in Laos while I was in B-52s out of Guam. I was in Air Command and Staff College when I was learned he was alive and being released. I was leaving ACSC when he arrived and I was his sponsor for indoctrination. I told him what to expect at ACSC and he told me what I would find Ubon like since I was on my way there. I lost contact with Norb after that. Ernie Brace - I included this link link because he posted a nice note about Norb in the link above. I remembered reading his name before but I never knew his story. I found it most interesting. I met a few of the Air America pilots when the stopped over for some R&R at Ubon. Robert Panek - This is about a crew member and neighbor who entered the B-58 program with me. He left the B-58 a year before the program ended and he was downed in a “Wild Weasel” the month the B-58 was retired. These folks are not here to tell their stories. I thought I would share them.
I forgot the failed and incredibly expensive B-58's. A real turkey. Convair and the B-58 naturally bring to mind the uber-turkey of the postwar Air Force, the Convair B-36.
A real turkey. Ben Franklin considered the turkey to be hardy, intelligent, and beautiful bird. In fact, he even lobbied to have the wild turkey designated as young America's national symbol. We should keep in mind that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and remember the wild turkey does have a attributes that should appeal to anyone. The B-58 Hustler was an amazing machine, state of the art on "bleeding edge" technology for the time. I believe I logged more time in the Hustler than anyone. I was in the program from 1960 to help form the first operational Wing and had the honor of flying in the last one to the boneyard in 1970.
He also recommended that the Republic adopt and use Greek as a national language. Ben Franklin said a lot of stuff.
Three times as expensive as operating B-52's which packed far more punch and versatility. Today, we still fly the B-52 and will do so into the 2030's. And the B-58 is long gone.
That video makes my case. What an appalling design.
You know a lot about Ben Franklin. It is obvious that you are a student of Ben Franklin...you have learned your lessons well.
Not at all. I always thought he was a bit overrated in our textbooks. Many others were far more important to how the country formed and what it became.
The B-36 reminds me of one of the Russian bombers we see still flying.
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
The Tupolev Tu-95 is 62 years old and still going strong:
Hey, Pete, I talked with you a ways back about the book Black Hawk Down and you were going to read it. Did you ever get around to it?
I'm sorry to say that I haven't.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
Good military history book to teach young leaders.
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
Hard to believe the nineties could be history. I must be getting old.
Had an Army Captain brief me he was going to the training area with his artillery battery and should be mission complete before dark and back to the motorpool. He told me he was not taking out the unit night vision goggles since they would be back before dark. I then pulled out the line from "Blackhawk Down" where someone made the same comment. My battalion commander smiled and said "what my XO just told you, learn from it."
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
It was an exciting book. I've probably read it 4 times. I'm not a military person at all but I was shocked how useless the regular army guys were considered to be by the rangers. I was equally shocked how the rangers didn't seem like anything special either. The SF guys, they weren't called SF, it was something else, they were freaking unbelievable.
Commandos. Shughaurt and Gordon were SF-Delta, and both won the MoH. You can read about them on Wikipedia.
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
Yes, Delta, that's it.
Delta originated as "Detachment B-52" with the 5th Special Forces Group in VN. Even that is only partially true because most (all?) of the original operators were guys TDY to the 5th from the 1st on Okinawa. There were 3 elements of the original "Special Operations Group",Delta,Sigma,and Omega. Delta ran recon missions all over VN,and Sigma and Omega ran recon operations in Cambodia and Laos and later became know as "C and C detachment". I can't remember for sure right now which countries Sigma and Omega specialized in,but I THINK Sigma operated in Laos,and Omega operated in Cambodia. And of course there was always some "bleed over" with all of them,and on occasional each ran missions in the areas generally covered by the other detachments as needed. I was in C and C myself (FOB 2),and had a lot of friends in Delta from my time with the 1st Group on Okinawa. Delta was based at Nha Trang,and they had the best damn NCO club in VN,and possibly in the entire US Army. I used to go there to eat and visit friends when I was in Nha Trang. They had a first class kitchen,too. It was a Top Secret operation and compound though,and you didn't get in there unless the guards at the gate knew you personally. When the US Army needed a specialized unit to do all sorts of "non-regular army" stuff in the 70's,it was the senior officer and NCO leadership of Detachment B-52 they picked to set it up and run it,so naturally they called it "Delta". You could volunteer for Delta until you were blue in the face,but you didn't get picked unless people already in Delta knew you and had operated with you and could vouch for you. Most (all?) of the early Delta guys didn't really volunteer so much as they were recruited. A couple of senior NCO's or officers you knew from past assignments would show up and ask you if you wanted to join them and do some interesting unspecified things. If you said "Yes",you were immediately reassigned there. No glory hounds were welcome. If you couldn't keep your mouth shut about what you had done and were doing,you didn't get selected no matter how much rank you had or what you had done. Pretty much every career SF NCO and Officer at Bragg knew people who were in Delta and where their training areas were,but nobody asked any questions or said anything. These people understood security and the "need to know".
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
For the regular Army types two points. The first is they were actually assigned there to be facility security for the Rangers/SOF and a quick reaction force to rescue any Rangers/SOF needing assistance. Their role evolved to be much more. Secondly, this was the first urban COIN fight for regular Army troops since Vietnam. The US has a horrible historical record of "first battles." Which is a good book recommendation "America's First Battles." Recommend it. The amazing SF or SOF were Delta Force. They are what is called "black" SOF. The Rangers and SF Green berets are what is called "white" SOF. Different target sets and purposes. Later in OIF and OEF the Rangers split between white and black given the need. In Iraq mostly black. The SF Green Berets focused on training host nation SF and assisting them on direct action missions. If you found Blackhawk Down interesting I highly recommend "Not a Good Day to Die". It is about the early weeks of OEF during Operation Anaconda. You won't put it down. Once again many first battle lessons learned. "Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
Great history lesson Pete. Wasn't there a period of time between Vietnam and Operation Eagle Claw (Iran hostage rescue attempt) where the SF units were stood down?
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
I was already out of the army by then,but SF was cut waaaaay back by the "wear red and march in a straight line" army that neither understood them or liked them. Then terrorists started operating as organized international units in the 70's,and the conventional military in general and the army specifically was forced to recognize they didn't have the ability and the flexibility to deal with threats of that sort,so it was decided to let "Charging Charlie" Beckwith form the unit he had been trying to form for several years. Since he had commanded Delta Project in VN,he named the new unit "Delta",and went right to his Delta Force personnel roster to recruit the core members of his new command. Being able to pick and choose experienced unconventional warriors who all knew one another and who had worked together before really simplified getting his new command up and running. It wouldn't be stretching the truth very far to say that Delta already existed,and just needed to be pulled back together again. Operation Eagle Claw where Jim-Mah Carter and the military geniuses that gathered around him and turned into the cluster-kj8w you just knew it had to become (putting PC squids in charge of ground operations? Who would think that could possibly go wrong?)led to a the formation of the Special Operations Command we have today that has their own air assets and other support units that work and train with the ground combat units and each other so that those same mistakes are never made again. SOC may have members and senior brass from all branches of the service,but they are all Indians working for the same Chief. You can NOT hope to run any successful combat operation when you have as many Chiefs as you have Indians,with all of them giving their own orders and defending their own turf and leadership roles. Now they all work WITH each other instead of working against each other in some sort of domination contest.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
Yes, great history! Thanks. Oh, the destructive blunderings of power-mad, incompetent politicians. Those rotten bastards.
Again, a great run down. A history not many followed.
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
I probably had a special interest in that sort of thing that most people didn't share.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
#2. To: TooConservative (#1)
#3. To: TooConservative (#1)
#4. To: Gatlin (#3)
(Edited)
BTW - Thank you for being nice to me again.
#5. To: Gatlin (#2)
These are the actions I more closely associate with being awarded a Medal of Honor.
#6. To: TooConservative (#5)
(Edited)
These are the actions I more closely associate with being awarded a Medal of Honor.
#7. To: Gatlin (#6)
(Edited)
#8. To: TooConservative (#7)
#9. To: Gatlin (#8)
#10. To: Gatlin (#0)
#11. To: Pinguinite (#10)
(Edited)
MoH requires one to voluntarily risk his life "beyond the call of duty", at a time place and under circumstances would completely justify doing nothing of the kind.
Yes, the MoH is to be awarded for "gallantry and intrepidity at risk of life above and beyond the call of duty."
#12. To: Gatlin (#0)
“There is no doubt that this true American hero is worthy of our nation’s highest military honor,” Mr. Williams said in a statement.
#13. To: Gatlin, *Military or Vets Affairs*, *SOCOM* (#0)
#14. To: TooConservative (#5)
The pol is piggybacking on to Kyle to aggrandize himself to the voters.
#15. To: Gatlin (#8)
Capt. Humbert Roque Versace.
#16. To: sneakypete (#15)
(Edited)
#17. To: TooConservative, BobCeleste, GarySpFc (#9)
#18. To: redleghunter (#17)
I'll dig up the DSC citation if I still have it.
#19. To: sneakypete (#18)
I get a chill every time I think about it. I don't care who you are or how high your standards for bravery are,going on a solo Bright Light mission into Cambodia in the late 60's while armed only with a knife takes stones.
#20. To: TooConservative (#19)
(Edited)
I get a chill every time I think about it. I don't care who you are or how high your standards for bravery are,going on a solo Bright Light mission into Cambodia in the late 60's while armed only with a knife takes stones.
#21. To: sneakypete (#18)
#22. To: sneakypete (#20)
#23. To: sneakypete (#18)
#24. To: TooConservative (#22)
#25. To: redleghunter (#24)
No such thing as luck.
#26. To: TooConservative, sneakypete, GarySpFc, liberator (#22)
I see nothing wrong with giving him the medal but I don't think the Pentagon actually wants its soldiers to go into battle so poorly armed and against such overwhelming odds. Just because one guy was lucky enough to get out alive from such an exploit doesn't mean it is a good general practice to encourage among the rank and file. At any rate, I don't see the Pentagon likes sending troops on suicide missions.
#27. To: TooConservative, sneakypete, GarySpFc (#25)
I'm doubt the War College believes in predestination.
#28. To: redleghunter (#26)
RB like many others in military history heard a plea for help from his brothers in arms and acted.
#29. To: redleghunter, sneakypete (#27)
The United States Navy employs Gurkha guards as sentries at its base in Naval Support Activity Bahrain and on the US Navy side of the pier at Mina Salaman. The Gurkhas work alongside army, air force and navy members in day-to-day operations. They also work as security forces at the US embassy in Kabul, Afghanistan.
#30. To: TooConservative, BobCeleste, GarySpFc, sneakypete (#28)
It's admirable because he volunteered and prevailed, saving many lives.
#31. To: TooConservative, sneakypete, GarySpFc (#29)
Certainly our special forces are brave and incredibly capable. But this is not a new thing overall. As much as we credit the British for inventing the modern commando and our own subsequent extensive special forces development through the Cold War era, they are not necessarily any braver than the Ghurka have been for centuries. I think we flatter ourselves a bit by ignoring the Ghurkas conspicuous bravery over the centuries. But then, they can also be described as a heathen death cult, given their well-known devotion to Kali.
#32. To: redleghunter, sneakypete (#30)
On the contrary, if soldiers know they are going to die and bleed on the battlefield without knowing some relief is coming, they won't fight effectively.
#33. To: TooConservative (#29)
Certainly our special forces are brave and incredibly capable. But this is not a new thing overall. As much as we credit the British for inventing the modern commando and our own subsequent extensive special forces development through the Cold War era, they are not necessarily any braver than the Ghurka have been for centuries. I think we flatter ourselves a bit by ignoring the Ghurkas conspicuous bravery over the centuries. But then, they can also be described as a heathen death cult, given their well-known devotion to Kali.
#34. To: sneakypete (#15)
Every time I think about Rocky singing "God Bless America" in the rain as he waits for his executioner to show up to kill him it brings a tear to my eyes.
#35. To: redleghunter (#27)
No, such situations do have volunteers in such hopeless situations. The pilots would be the first. However these were SF soldiers. No one had to ask. A brother bleeds and the other brothers heed.
#36. To: TooConservative (#32)
#37. To: redleghunter (#36)
#38. To: TooConservative (#22)
You honestly think that the Pentagon wants its soldiers to go on such suicidal missions?
#39. To: redleghunter (#23)
Thanks. Another account as well:
#40. To: redleghunter (#24)
No such thing as luck.
#41. To: TooConservative (#28)
But that is not how a professional military fights and wins wars.
#42. To: sneakypete (#39)
#43. To: TooConservative (#29)
I think we flatter ourselves a bit by ignoring the Ghurkas conspicuous bravery over the centuries.
#44. To: redleghunter (#31)
Benavites is what we call altruistic actions. He did not seek glory that day nor death. He sought to come to the aid of men He previously sweat and bled with in training and combat.
#45. To: TooConservative (#32)
There are circumstances where a knife just isn't enough.
#46. To: TooConservative (#37)
(Edited)
Or that you would restrict who has firearms on an American military base. But special forces? I would think they would always be trusted to have firearms and would always have access to them.
#47. To: redleghunter (#42)
Never knew how long RB was captive. Do you remember?
#48. To: sneakypete (#47)
#49. To: redleghunter (#48)
You talking about someone else? Roy Benavidez died in the US in 1998.
#50. To: sneakypete (#49)
#51. To: sneakypete (#38)
There were always Bright Light rescue teams on standby at the launch sites. Every recon team took turns pulling Bright Light duty,and there was never any shortage of volunteers to go in with them when needed.
#52. To: sneakypete (#46)
As for Roy,he HAD his weapon,rucksack,and web gear nearby,but at the time he was working in a support role at the launch site,and had been attending Mass when they all heard the distress call. The helicopters were leaving immediately to try to pick them up,and Roy didn't have the time to run to his tent and pick up his web gear and weapon. Helicopter crews at launch sites remained in or around their helicopters the whole day,and were ready to take off right NOW if needed. If you wanted to get on one,you had better be there when he cranks up because he won't wait for you.
Do yourself a favor and never try to disarm any SF guys you may find wandering around in your AO.
#53. To: sneakypete, redleghunter (#40)
If you are ever given a chance to pick between being lucky or being smart,just hope you are smart enough to pick "lucky".
#54. To: sneakypete (#45)
If you don't have the right man in position,all the guns and knives in the world are ineffective.
#55. To: sneakypete (#43)
Find a professional combat arms soldier that ignores the history and courage of the Ghurkas.
#56. To: TooConservative (#51)
Okay, sure. I don't get the part where you have rescue teams at the ready with choppers available but that somehow the only weapon that guy could grab is a knife.
#57. To: TooConservative (#53)
I never realized the Pentagon was such a hotbed of predestinarians.
#58. To: sneakypete (#56)
(Edited)
I was working as a squad leader with a Hatchet Force platoon at the time,and since he could only carry out 1 squad at a time,he dumped me and my squad off on the airfield at Ben Het and made three more trips to get everybody else out. You know you were in a bad situation when the airfield at Ben Het was thought to be a safer place to drop you off to wait for a ride back to the camp. They had been surrounded for about 6 months and cut off by the NVA,and the only way in or out of there for supplies or anything else was by air. They were a little jumpy and trigger happy,so I made damn sure I took my jungle hat off and faced the berm when we got out of that unmarked helicopter wearing black fatigues with a load of armed Asians so they could see my face and my beard.
Are you really trying to compare covert jungle warfare with overt conventional warfare in the open desert and in cities using conventional forces?
As I have written before,he was attending Mass when they heard the radio call. The slick getting ready to take off was sitting on the airstrip with a warmed up engine,and the pilot was winding it up and getting ready to leave to go see what he could do with his one helicopter. Roy didn't have time to run and get his weapon and web gear,so he just grabbed the medic bag and ran for the slick.
#59. To: sneakypete (#57)
#60. To: TooConservative (#58)
reminded me of that scene from John Wayne's Green Beret. I think that movie was an eye-opener for a lot of people about what ground fighting in Vietnam really meant. Growing up and being a kid, I simply had no idea of what the war was like for those who got drafted, very little idea even of what the terrain of Vietnam was like.
#61. To: sneakypete (#60)
The best movie about combat in VN/the jungle is "We Were Soldiers Once,and Young".
#62. To: GarySpFC (#61)
Pete, was it you or a buddy who listened to that fight on a radio?
#63. To: TooConservative (#51)
(Edited)
#64. To: Gatlin (#63)
(Edited)
Of course, I am a notorious B-52 fanboi. : ) Through FY 1961, the total cost of the B-58 program was $3 billion. A highly complex aircraft, it also required considerable maintenance, much of which required specialized equipment and ground personnel. For comparison, the average maintenance cost per flying hour for the B-47 was $361, for the B-52 it was $1,025 and for the B-58 it was $1,440. The B-58 also cost three times as much to operate as the B-52. The cost of maintaining and operating the two operational B-58 wings equaled that of six wings of B-52s. 
#65. To: TooConservative (#64)
(Edited)
What really did the plane in was that it was obsolete shortly after it became operational. When Francis Gary Powers was shot down by an SA-2 at 70,000 feet it was determined that the only way a bomber was going to survive was at very low altitude. The B-58 was not particularly well suited to low level operations. By some accounts it rode very rough down low and the crews took a real beating. The J-79s guzzled fuel down low, greatly reducing the B-58's already marginal range.
#66. To: Gatlin (#65)
Ben Franklin considered the turkey to be hardy, intelligent, and beautiful bird. In fact, he even lobbied to have the wild turkey designated as young America's national symbol.
#67. To: Gatlin (#65)
The B-58 Hustler was an amazing machine, state of the art on "bleeding edge" technology for the time.
#68. To: Gatlin (#65)
#69. To: TooConservative (#66)
Ben Franklin said a lot of stuff.
#70. To: Gatlin (#69)
It is obvious that you are a student of Ben Franklin...
#71. To: GatlIn (#64)
#72. To: GarySpFC (#71)
The B-36 reminds me of one of the Russian bombers we see still flying.
#73. To: sneakypete (#56)
Ever see the movie Black Hawk Down? If not,watch it and note how the Special Forces NCO's that come in to organize and lead the Ranger defense operate in comparison to the Rangers.
#74. To: Biff Tannen (#73)
Hey, Pete, I talked with you a ways back about the book Black Hawk Down and you were going to read it. Did you ever get around to it?
#75. To: Biff Tannen (#73)
#76. To: redleghunter (#75)
#77. To: Biff Tannen, GarySpFc (#76)
#78. To: redleghunter (#77)
#79. To: Biff Tannen, Sneakypete, Redleghunterppp (#78)
(Edited)
#80. To: GarySpFC (#79)
#81. To: GarySpFC, Biff Tannen, Redleghunter (#79)
Commandos. Shughaurt and Gordon were SF-Delta, and both won the MoH.
#82. To: Biff Tannen (#78)
t was an exciting book. I've probably read it 4 times. I'm not a military person at all but I was shocked how useless the regular army guys were considered to be by the rangers. I was equally shocked how the rangers didn't seem like anything special either. The SF guys, they weren't called SF, it was something else, they were freaking unbelievable.
#83. To: sneakypete, GarySpFc (#81)
#84. To: redleghunter (#83)
Wasn't there a period of time between Vietnam and Operation Eagle Claw (Iran hostage rescue attempt) where the SF units were stood down?
#85. To: redleghunter, sneakypete (#83)
#86. To: sneakypete (#84)
Operation Eagle Claw where Jim-Mah Carter and the military geniuses that gathered around him and turned into the cluster-kj8w you just knew it had to become (putting PC squids in charge of ground operations? Who would think that could possibly go wrong?)led to a the formation of the Special Operations Command we have today that has their own air assets and other support units that work and train with the ground combat units and each other so that those same mistakes are never made again. SOC may have members and senior brass from all branches of the service,but they are all Indians working for the same Chief. You can NOT hope to run any successful combat operation when you have as many Chiefs as you have Indians,with all of them giving their own orders and defending their own turf and leadership roles. Now they all work WITH each other instead of working against each other in some sort of domination contest.
#87. To: redleghunter (#86)
A history not many followed.
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