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Title: 'American Sniper': Prominent Libertarian Claims There Is No Difference Between Chris Kyle and Mass Murderer Adam Lanza
Source:
http://www.hngn.com/
URL Source: http://www.hngn.com/articles/65352/ ... ce-between-chris-kyle-mass.htm
Published: Jan 31, 2015
Author: ida Ahmed
Post Date: 2015-01-31 15:56:37 by Gatlin
Keywords: None
Views: 80079
Comments: 315
A prominent libertarian activist has made controversial comparisons between the late "American Sniper" protagonist Navy SEAL Chris Kyle and mass murderer Adam Lanza, who killed 28 people in a 2012 shooting spree. Lanza isn't much different from Kyle, a Navy SEAL sniper who killed 160 people during multiple combat tours in Iraq, Sheldon Richman, vice president of the Future of Freedom Foundation, said on Wednesday. Two years ago, Lanza shot his mother to death, then proceeded to a nearby Sandy Hook Elementary School and killed 20 first-graders and six staffers before committing suicide. "Excuse me, but I have trouble seeing an essential difference between what Kyle did in Iraq and what Adam Lanza did at Sandy Hook Elementary School. It certainly was not heroism," Richman wrote in an op-ed published on the Future of Freedom Foundation website and reprinted by Reason.com. "Despite what some people think, hero is not a synonym for competent government-hired killer," he added. Speaking about the widely debated Clint Eastwood's movie, Richman slammed Kyle's actions, Breitbart reported. "Let's recall some facts, which perhaps Eastwood thought were too obvious to need mention: Kyle was part of an invasion force: Americans went to Iraq. Iraq did not invade America or attack Americans. Dictator Saddam Hussein never even threatened to attack Americans," he continued. "Contrary to what the George W. Bush administration suggested, Iraq had nothing to do with the attacks on Sept. 11, 2001. Before Americans invaded Iraq, Al Qaeda was not there. Nor was it in Syria, Yemen, and Libya." "Wars of aggression, let's remember, are illegal under international law. Nazis were executed at Nuremberg for waging wars of aggression." "The only reason Kyle went to Iraq was that Bush/Cheney & Co. launched a war of aggression against the Iraqi people," he wrote. The deceased sniper cannot be deemed a hero because the American military personnel's lives that he was protecting were the aggressors themselves, according to Richman, Newsmax reported. "What American lives? The lives of American military personnel who invaded another people's country, one that was no threat to them or their fellow Americans back home." If "an invader kills someone who is trying to resist the invasion, that does not count as heroic self-defense; the invader is the aggressor. If anyone's the hero, it's the latter," he wrote. The people who Kyle killed on the battlefield only threatened Americans because "American forces waged an unprovoked war against them," he added. "No Iraqi asked to be killed by Kyle, but it sure looks as though Kyle was asking to be killed by an Iraqi. [Instead, another vet did the job.
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#1. To: Gatlin (#0)
(Edited)
I got dragged to one of their conferences years ago. They has a NAMBLA table set up next to the usual legalize drugs table. That was all I needed to know about the Future of Freedom Foundation.
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
Libertarians aren't known for their high IQs. Apparently some are borderline insane.
Gatlin ----- "Excuse me, but I have trouble seeing an essential difference between what Kyle did in Iraq and what Adam Lanza did at Sandy Hook Elementary School. Libertarians aren't known for their high IQs. Apparently some are borderline insane. ---- Otter Many anti-libertarians disguise their true politics and call themselves libertarians, in order to denigrate the american libertarian movement as defined by the Cato Institute. In actuality, these crazed anti-libertarians are also anti-constitutionalists who support police state type tactics. From Cato: --- libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=37402
The victims of both probably felt about the same about being murdered by them. Kyle was much braver though in that he had a lot of courage to get into position to take his shots. So Kyle's victims could take pride in a much braver and more professional murder. Otherwise, dead is still dead. Killed helplessly against hopeless odds (a sniper at a distance or a gunman in an elementary classroom) is still getting killed helplessly. But how brave is it to shoot people at a distance? About as sporting as shooting a deer with a scoped rifle. Or shooting fish in a barrel. Or shooting 3rd graders at their school desks. I think this has become a Left/Right pissing match which explains how the controversy keeps going. The rest of the country is sanely trying to ignore it.
I think you're lying. Prove that Future of Freedom Foundation (a largely comatose organization founded by a libertarian lawyer whose books and videos all come from the late Eighties through the mid-Nineties) has any connection at all with NAMBLA. A weekly show from FFF and its founder, speaking about Kyle's career. January 26, 2015—I thought we would talk for this week’s edition of The Libertarian Angle about “American Sniper,” the movie that’s breaking all the records at the theaters for attendance. It’s a topics of big conversation in military circles. It’s based on a book by Chris Kyle. Have you seen the movie? If you know the story, it revolves around Iraq and this American solider who becomes a sniper. He holds a record for the highest number of people killed by sniper in U.S. history. The movie revolves around how heroic he is and what he does to protect our country, killing the bad guys and so forth. Of course, what the movie ignores in all of this is the fact that the people of Iraq and the government of Iraq had never attacked the United States. This was a sheer war of aggression, a type of war crime that was built up at Nuremberg and people were prosecuting for it. And the idea behind that war crime was that, look, when somebody starts a war, we’re going to punish them for doing this because they’re killing people unlawfully. As libertarians, I think we’ve always held that a nation has a right to defend itself from an illegal invasion—aggression by a foreign country. So here you have a situation where the United States is the aggressor and it’s killing people whose government never attacked the United States, never even threatened the United States. I think that is an important point to recognize here. Now, as Chris Kyle is coming back to the United States and he’s dealing with his wife and his children, and he keeps going back for four tours, it’s clear that he’s getting all screwed up in the head. His marriage is disintegrating and the guy is going off a little bonkers, as many of the guys did who went to Iraq. The idea is that it’s always PTSD (post-traumatic stress disorder), that it’s just the stresses of war and so forth. But very few people are honing in on that what’s really going on here is guilt. I don’t see how a person who has a conscience can go in there and just kill people indiscriminately for nothing worse than defending their country against an aggressor. how can that not affect a person?
I think this has become a Left/Right pissing match which explains how the controversy keeps going. The rest of the country is sanely trying to ignore it. Yep, the lefties on this site are busily trying to make it a divisive issue. And killing people from a distance has always been a big part of war. Brave men have been defending this country, in exactly that way, since the Revolution. Have you served? If you have, you too share in the killing of men from a distance.
Are you claiming that Kyle used or supported police state tactics?
Many anti-libertarians disguise their true politics and call themselves libertarians, in order to denigrate the american libertarian movement as defined by the Cato Institute. In actuality, these crazed anti-libertarians are also anti-constitutionalists who support police state type tactics. From Cato: --- libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=37402 Read much? And you claim that libertarians are crazy?
Yes. Why don't you write sanely and intelligently?
But killing people from a distance with a $50,000 rifle is actually no braver than shooting up a classroom of helpless little kids. How do you differentiate between these two scenarios of shooting fish in a barrel and knowing they can't shoot back? Because one guy has a uniform and is following the orders of one of our loathsome and cowardly presidents (who don't ever serve in the military either). BTW, Eastwood says it is an antiwar movie. I take him at his word. What we see instead is the Right embracing it as a totally pro-war and pro-sniper movie which Eastwood says it isn't. The Left is merely annoyed that the Right is happy about something so they picked a fight over this movie, apparently ignoring Eastwood and adopting the Right's view that it is a pro-war and pro-sniper flick.
In writing standard English. If you can't understand it, you're the crazy, not libertarians.
I don't see why people are all upset over killing someone at 1,000 yds when you can kill them from thousands of miles away a couple hundred thousand at a time.
“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”
So please explain to me in standard English what police state tactics have to do with Chris Kyle or Adam Lanza.
I'm pro-USA, are you?
So what? You're a fanatic with an oxymoronic handle. I remember that the NAMBLA representative manning the table at the Future of Freedom Confrence was asked by one of the Libertarian attendees at the event how someone could get consent (consent is the favorite rationalization Libertarians use to justify sodomy and various other perversions) from a child. The perv answered that if the child cooed, that meant consent. At that same conference, a prostitute named Norma Jean Almodovar was one of the speakers. BTW, the Libertarian Party you so admire has opposed age of consent laws and has demanded that undearaged children be able to claim all the rights of adults by declaring their independence from their parents or guardians. I think you're in favor of that. Aren't ya?
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
The argument is over whether it is a heroic act, whether it is an example of warrior courage in the face of personal danger. There is a subtext of Iraq being a phony war, at least with the Left. That is the ax they are trying to grind.
I say you're lying. Prove it. Nope. And I am not a Libertarian for many reasons.
Oxymoron: Reason and Libertarian
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
I say you're lying. Prove it.
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
Sure. Except when I'm not.
I'm posting on an anonymous forum. OTOH, you are making statements of fact about an advertised large public event by a well-known political institute. I take it that you are (weakly) conceding that you made the whole thing up and are mostly angry that someone saw through your lies.
He's talking about infiltrator types who pose as Libertarians in order to discredit them. An old sleazy political tactic that works more often than you think. Part of the bag of tricks of character assassins for a long time.
Nope. And I still say you're a liar. Right down to your handle. Future of Freedom Foundation
#2. To: Gatlin (#0)
"Excuse me, but I have trouble seeing an essential difference between what Kyle did in Iraq and what Adam Lanza did at Sandy Hook Elementary School.
#3. To: Gatlin (#0)
Dictator Saddam Hussein never even threatened to attack Americans," he continued. "Contrary to what the George W. Bush administration suggested, Iraq had nothing to do with the attacks on Sept. 11, 2001. Before Americans invaded Iraq, Al Qaeda was not there. Nor was it in Syria, Yemen, and Libya."
True.
#4. To: Otter, palmdale, gatlin, etc... anti-libertarian crazies? (#2)
(Edited)
Future of Freedom Foundation ---- I got dragged to one of their conferences years ago. ---- Palmdale
#5. To: Gatlin (#0)
A prominent libertarian activist has made controversial comparisons between the late "American Sniper" protagonist Navy SEAL Chris Kyle and mass murderer Adam Lanza, who killed 28 people in a 2012 shooting spree.
#6. To: Palmdale (#1)
I got dragged to one of their conferences years ago. They has a NAMBLA table set up next to the usual legalize drugs table. That was all I needed to know about the Future of Freedom Foundation.
Examining ‘American Sniper’ from the Libertarian Angle
January 26, 2015
#7. To: TooConservative (#5)
--- how brave is it to shoot people at a distance? ----
#8. To: tpaine (#4)
In actuality, these crazed anti-libertarians are also anti-constitutionalists who support police state type tactics.
#9. To: Otter, Y'ALL (#8)
gatlin ----- "Excuse me, but I have trouble seeing an essential difference between what Kyle did in Iraq and what Adam Lanza did at Sandy Hook Elementary School.
Libertarians aren't known for their high IQs. Apparently some are borderline insane. ---- Otter
Are you claiming that Kyle used or supported police state tactics?
#10. To: tpaine (#9)
Read much?
#11. To: tpaine (#7)
And killing people from a distance has always been a big part of war. Brave men have been defending this country, in exactly that way, since the Revolution.
#12. To: Otter (#10)
#13. To: tpaine (#7)
And killing people from a distance has always been a big part of war.
#14. To: tpaine, Otter, Palmdale (#4)
Gatlin ----- "Excuse me, but I have trouble seeing an essential difference between what Kyle did in Iraq and what Adam Lanza did at Sandy Hook Elementary School.
Gatlin ida Ahmed ----- "Excuse me, but I have trouble seeing an essential difference between what Kyle did in Iraq and what Adam Lanza did at Sandy Hook Elementary School.”
#15. To: tpaine (#12)
In writing standard English.
#16. To: TooConservative (#11)
What we see instead is the Right embracing it as a totally pro-war and pro-sniper movie which Eastwood says it isn't.
#17. To: TooConservative (#6)
I think you're lying.
#18. To: CZ82 (#13)
I don't see why people are all upset over killing someone at 1,000 yds when you can kill them from thousands of miles away a couple hundred thousand at a time.
#19. To: Palmdale (#17)
I remember that the NAMBLA representative manning the table at the Future of Freedom Confrence was asked by one of the Libertarian attendees at the event how someone could get consent (consent is the favorite rationalization Libertarians use to justify sodomy and various other perversions) from a child. The perv answered that if the child cooed, that meant consent.
BTW, the Libertarian Party you so admire has opposed age of consent laws and has demanded that undearaged children be able to claim all the rights of adults by declaring their independence from their parents or guardians. I think you're in favor of that. Aren't ya?
#20. To: Gatlin (#14)
"Excuse me, but I have trouble seeing an essential difference between what Kyle did in Iraq and what Adam Lanza did at Sandy Hook Elementary School. It certainly was not heroism," Richman wrote in an op-ed published on the Future of Freedom Foundation website and reprinted by Reason.com.
#21. To: TooConservative (#19)
And I am not a Libertarian for many reasons.
#22. To: Otter (#16)
I'm pro-USA, are you?
#23. To: Palmdale (#21)
I say you're lying. Prove it.
#24. To: Otter (#15)
So please explain to me in standard English what police state tactics have to do with Chris Kyle or Adam Lanza.
#25. To: TooConservative (#23)
(Edited)
I take it that you are (weakly) conceding that you made the whole thing up
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
#26. To: TooConservative (#11)
Yep, the lefties on this site are busily trying to make it a divisive issue. And killing people from a distance has always been a big part of war. Brave men have been defending this country, in exactly that way, since the Revolution. Have you served? If you have, you too share in the killing of men from a distance. To compare men doing their duty in war, -- with a crazy murderer of children is an act of total zealotry. How weird that you don't know of the use of counter snipers in war. If memory serves, military snipers have a very high casualty rate. So? I don't quite understand your zealotry about the issue. Can you explain your over reaction?
But killing people from a distance with a $50,000 rifle is actually no braver than shooting up a classroom of helpless little kids.
How do you differentiate between these two scenarios of shooting fish in a barrel and knowing they can't shoot back?
Because one guy has a uniform and is following the orders of one of our loathsome and cowardly presidents (who don't ever serve in the military either). ---- BTW, Eastwood says it is an antiwar movie. I take him at his word. What we see instead is the Right embracing it as a totally pro-war and pro-sniper movie which Eastwood says it isn't. The Left is merely annoyed that tokhe Right is happy about something so they picked a fight over this movie, apparently ignoring Eastwood and adopting the Right's view that it is a pro-war and pro- sniper flick.
#27. To: Gatlin (#0)
Sheldon Richman is mentioned in the 2nd paragraph. He's another libertarian who supports Obama's open border policy. First, by nature all individuals — not just Americans — have rights. Specifically, they have a natural right to engage in any peaceful activity, that is, any conduct that does not aggress against other people. Among those rights, therefore, is the right to travel and settle anywhere, so long as no one else’s rights are violated. Considering that plenty of Americans would eagerly rent apartments to and hire, say, Mexicans, migration is included among the freedoms all people possess. Second, and closely related, an ancient and honorable principle holds that an unjust law is no law at all (lex iniusta non est lex). The idea is that no one should be compelled to do what is unjust or be prevented from doing what justice requires or allows — such as freely moving about. Conservatives and progressives alike are vexed that the 11 million U.S. residents without papers violated the law to get here. How dare they! But according to the ancient principle, what they violated was a not a law but a mere legislative decree, which conflicts with the natural law and hence is contrary to justice and freedom. It is an established maxim that no one is obligated to obey an unjust law. Since that’s the case, we should not be talking about amnesty for residents without papers; amnesty implies wrongdoing, and these human beings did nothing wrong. They should be left free to go about their lives. Incidentally, there also should be no amnesty for the government officials who have harassed residents without papers rather than leaving them in peace. “I was following orders” is no excuse.
fff.org/explore-freedom/a...migration-bill-overlooks/
#28. To: TooConservative (#18)
Carlos Hathcock, Vietnam era American sniper go to the 20:00 mark and watch the mission where he nailed a General. http://www.history.com/shows/history-specials/videos/sniper-deadliest-missions
The argument is over whether it is a heroic act, whether it is an example of warrior courage in the face of personal danger.
“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”
#29. To: TooConservative (#24)
Obviously he is incapable of expressing himself in standard English. Who knows, maybe he is just young, foolish and uninformed.
He's talking about infiltrator types who pose as Libertarians in order to discredit them. An old sleazy political tactic that works more often than you think. Part of the bag of tricks of character assassins for a long time.
#30. To: Otter (#29)
Two out of three.
maybe he is just young, foolish and uninformed.
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
#31. To: tpaine (#26)
If you have, you too share in the killing of men from a distance. Are you actually quoting yourself? Repetition doesn't improve the merits of these non-sequiturs. No, it's not. You are shooting helpless people who can't defend themselves, who never even know you shot at them until your bullet kills them. How can that be an act of bravery? By that standard, yes, Adam Lanza would be brave. By that standard, the Tsarnaev brothers were brave. There is also a shifting standard as to what constitutes a sniper. In WW II, snipers were behind enemy lines, taking long shots and escaping, mostly targeting high-ranking officers if they could. In the modern military, you have varieties of snipers. Snipers that shoot from aircraft, snipers that shoot from rooftops in urban warfare. And also snipers who still take the traditional long shots at high-value enemy soldiers. More often, you have what are called sniper-scouts who enter a battlefield early and provide intel and laser targeting and prep work for regular infantry to arrive and then help protect them as they go house-to-house. So "sniper" can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. When I say "sniper", I am generally referring to the classic sniper, not the modern versions that have a lot of other roles in the military.
And killing people from a distance has always been a big part of war. Brave men have been defending this country, in exactly that way, since the Revolution. Have you served?
To compare men doing their duty in war, -- with a crazy murderer of children is an act of total zealotry.
#32. To: Otter (#15)
Many anti-libertarians disguise their true politics and call themselves libertarians, in order to denigrate the american libertarian movement as defined by the Cato Institute. In actuality, these crazed anti-libertarians are also anti-constitutionalists who support police state type tactics. You crazy anti-libertarians should explain that to all of us american libertarians who fight against a police state. Can you tell us why you support them?
So please explain to me in standard English what police state tactics have to do with Chris Kyle or Adam Lanza.
#33. To: tpaine, Otter (#32)
I think Otter is just caught in the crossfire. He's not on any particular side. After all, he's only been a member here at LF since yesterday.
#34. To: tpaine (#32)
If there truly were a police state, Adam Lanza would never have had an opportunity to slaughter innocent children, would he? You are uninformed and a fool.
#35. To: TooConservative (#33)
I'm on the side of common sense, law and order. Is there something about that you find distasteful or objectionable?
I think Otter is just caught in the crossfire. He's not on any particular side.
#36. To: Otter (#35)
Fighting words if I've ever heard them. : )
I'm on the side of common sense
#37. To: Otter (#34)
He could have become an abortion doctor and been well-paid for infanticide.
If there truly were a police state, Adam Lanza would never have had an opportunity to slaughter innocent children, would he?
#38. To: TooConservative (#36)
To many on internet forums that seems to be true.
Fighting words if I've ever heard them. : )
#39. To: Otter (#38)
They're mostly just chat sites after all.
#40. To: TooConservative (#39)
Yes, but too many posters post and act as if they know it all. Wouldn't you agree? Opinions are like a$$holes, most everyone has one, but some don't believe theirs stinks.
They're mostly just chat sites after all.
#41. To: Otter (#40)
I always find it painful to encounter these horrible persons on the web. : )
Yes, but too many posters post and act as if they know it all. Wouldn't you agree?
#42. To: TooConservative (#41)
You mean tpaineful?
I always find it painful to encounter these horrible persons on the web.
#43. To: TooConservative (#5) (Edited)
This debate is stupid and goes to show Americans were mind frakked over the Iraq war. It also does not help that post war Kyle came off as barely literate - the book of his was ghost written and probably not based on any real life events and was designed as pro Iraq war propaganda for all we know. I actually question the number of kills he did. He could have been chosen because he was not so bright and would not question his role. Besides the proven lie that he hit Jesse Ventura in a bar fight (which was a fake story to undermine a populist anti-war/Bush persona with a bona fide military pedigree) but Kyle lied about killing carjackers in Texas and that he was flown to New Orleans during Katrina and he sniped gang members from the roof of the astrodome there. All proven lies. so suddenly this movie comes out that is more fake than the book and this re-ignites the old debate about the Bush justified war in Iraq vs those who knew the was was BS and Kyle stands for the BS of it all.
#44. To: Pericles (#43)
I don’t even know who he is,” said Ventura Referring to Kyle. Sounds like more Jesse BS to me.
those who knew the was was BS and Kyle stands for the BS of it all
#45. To: TooConservative, GarySpFc (#5)
The SEAL Teams operate similar to other special operations...as a team. Most of what a sniper on a SOF team will do is provide overwatch for the team members. The SEAL teams were mostly in Anbar province when I was in Iraq. Believe it or not, they did more non lethal engagement of the populace and Iraqi security forces to include training Iraqi special forces. Guys like Kyle would provide overwatch for both lethal and non lethal operations. When you have a SEAL team conducting a raid with Iraqi special forces in a confined area, a sniper functions much like a fire support asset. They have the back of the team doing the mission. The team is very exposed during an operation and without snipers, observation drones, EW assets and if all goes to pot, an AC-130U overhead the team dies. SEAL teams are what we call white ops special forces. They are subject to the LOAC and ROE like everyone else. Comparing a Navy SEAL sniper to an elementary school murderer is frankly idiotic. I know you and many others here are staunchly opposed to our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. As a fellow American I respect your views. The fact is both wars no matter how opposed some here are to them were authorized by our elected government and the forces deployed under and subject to the LOAC and ROE.
But how brave is it to shoot people at a distance? About as sporting as shooting a deer with a scoped rifle. Or shooting fish in a barrel. Or shooting 3rd graders at their school desks.
"Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools " (Romans 1:21-22)
#46. To: Pericles (#43)
Did you ever discuss your thoughts with those who served with Kyle? They give a different story of his service in Iraq. Never had a problem with the SEAL teams I dealt with. Very conscious of collateral concerns and ROE.
"Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools " (Romans 1:21-22)
#47. To: tpaine (#7)
If you have, you too share in the killing of men from a distance. Too bad the Daily Kos was not around during the Battle of Agincourt. Wonder if all those Welsh archers would be called elementary school killers. So yes, ranged weapon systems have been around since the beginning. As well as foot and mounted.
And killing people from a distance has always been a big part of war. Brave men have been defending this country, in exactly that way, since the Revolution. Have you served?
"Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools " (Romans 1:21-22)
#48. To: Otter (#44)
I don’t even know who he is,” said Ventura Referring to Kyle. Sounds like more Jesse BS to me. Ventura sued Kyle's estate and the court found Kyle lied to a great degree and Ventura was awarded almost $2 million. So, no, Kyle is a proven liar in a court of law.
hose who knew the was was BS and Kyle stands for the BS of it all
#49. To: redleghunter (#46)
I did not say anything about Kyle other than he seemed not too bright or ill educated based on the way he talked. I also speculated his kills maybe bullshit - like the way we heard that female soldier being raped and tortured only to find out later that the Iraqis took good care of her in the hospital - but her plight was used to push the war propaganda out.
Did you ever discuss your thoughts with those who served with Kyle? They give a different story of his service in Iraq.
#50. To: Pericles (#48)
Even though Jesse claimed he didn't know Kyle. I guess Jesse is a liar also.
Ventura sued Kyle's estate
#51. To: All (#43)
astrodome = superdome
#52. To: Otter (#50) (Edited)
What do you mean by "know" like he heard of him or he knew him intimately? And how is that relative? I mean find the quote so we can all read it in context. Kyle lied about killing people in New Orleans in Katrina. He lied about killing carjacking Mexicans in Texans. All these kills covered up by the govt and grateful cops so no evidence can exist.
Even though Jesse claimed he didn't know Kyle. I guess Jesse is a liar also.
#53. To: TooConservative, GarySpFc (#11)
Well all war movies should serve to show the horrors of war and the consequences of such. Especially for those who foment war. I don't know where the term "antiwar" came from unless one is code pinkie. The majority of those who serve hope they never have to wage war. I for one probably won't see the movie. Had quite my fill of the real motion picture and have the six hash marks to prove it.
BTW, Eastwood says it is an antiwar movie. I take him at his word. What we see instead is the Right embracing it as a totally pro-war and pro-sniper movie which Eastwood says it isn't. The Left is merely annoyed that the Right is happy about something so they picked a fight over this movie, apparently ignoring Eastwood and adopting the Right's view that it is a pro-war and pro-sniper flick.
"Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools " (Romans 1:21-22)
#54. To: Pericles (#52)
Did you get that from Kyle's book? If so, please let me know the page number. Thanks.
Kyle lied about killing people in New Orleans in Katrina. He lied about killing carjacking Mexicans in Texans. All these kills covered up by the govt and grateful cops.
"Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools " (Romans 1:21-22)
#55. To: redleghunter (#54)
Magazine interview Kyle gave: http://frontburner.dmagazine.com/2013/02/08/confirmed-american-sniper-chris- kyle-killed-two-men-at-a-gas-station-in-2009/ It was left out of the book because it was clearly bullshit. I first asked him about the story last summer, during an interview in his Dallas office. I said: “Now, I have to ask you about an incident that I’ve heard about. I heard it happened at a gas station.” He said: “You mean the time I shot two guys trying to steal my truck?” I sat there stunned for a few seconds. The incredible story I’d heard, I figured there was no way it was true. “It’s true,” he said. He proceeded to tell me about that day. It was in January 2009, just weeks after he retired from the Navy. It was cold that morning, and he was wearing a heavy winter coat. He was driving his truck — his now famous black F350 with the large rims and impressive grill — when he needed to stop for gas. He pulled into a station right off highway 67. As he got out of the truck, two men approached. Both had guns in their hands. One pointed his weapon at Kyle. They told him to hand over his keys. Kyle was out of the truck, on the passenger’s side. “I told them I would get them the keys,” he told me. “I told them they were in the truck and to just let me reach in.” He noticed the man pointing the gun didn’t seem very confident. Kyle knew what confidence with a gun looked like. As Kyle turned, leaning into the open passenger door of the truck, he reached into his own waistband. With his right hand, he grabbed his Colt 1911. He fired two shots under his left armpit, hitting the first guy twice in the chest. Then he turned slightly and fired twice more, hitting the second man twice in the chest. Both men fell dead. Kyle leaned on his truck and waited for the police. http://blogs.star-telegram.com/crime_time/2013/02/did-slain-american-sniper- fatally-shoot-two-armed-robbers-in-2009.html Truly an interesting tale, but is it true? We searched for news stories and found none. We checked with the medical examiner’s office, which reported no such deaths in Cleburne in January 2009. We sought an interview with Luttrell, himself a decorated Navy SEAL, but did not hear back. We sent emails to friends of Kyle. One, who asked to remain anonymous, replied that if Luttrell said it, then “it’s probably true.” He also confirmed that the alleged incident happened in Cleburne. We asked Cleburne police about it and, after a day of research, they said they had no record of such a shooting. Ditto for the Johnson County district attorney’s office. Police in Midlothian, where Kyle lived, had no knowledge of “such an event.” Another friend of Kyle’s, Dalworthington Gardens Police Chief Bill Waybourn, replied: “The legends about Chris abound. After this week I expect a thousand stories like that.” But he declined to comment on whether the incident described by Luttrell actually happened. Read more here: http://blogs.star-telegram.com/crime_time/2013/02/did-slain- american-sniper-fatally-shoot-two-armed-robbers-in-2009.html#storylink=cpy
yle lied about killing people in New Orleans in Katrina. He lied about killing carjacking Mexicans in Texans. All these kills covered up by the govt and grateful cops. Did you get that from Kyle's book? If so, please let me know the page number. Thanks.
#56. To: redleghunter (#54)
http://www.dmagazine.com/publications/d-magazine/2013/april/the-legend-of- chris-kyle-01?single=1 During the interview in which he discussed the gas station incident, he didn’t say where it happened. Most versions of the story have him in Cleburne, not far from Fort Worth. The Cleburne police chief says that if such an incident did happen, it wasn’t in his town. Every other chief of police along Highway 67 says the same thing. Public information requests produced no police reports, no coroner reports, nothing from the Texas Rangers or the Department of Public Safety. I stopped at every gas station along 67, Business 67 in Cleburne, and 10 miles in either direction. Nobody had heard of anything like that happening.
http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/c/Chris-Kyle-Shot-Looters-Carjackers-Punched-Jesse-Ventura.htm#.VM2xXWjF__E
#57. To: TooConservative (#31)
I don't recall which nation's soldier said it or if it was in WW1 or WW2 but artillery spotters boasted in history book I read that they were snipers with larger guns.
So "sniper" can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people.
#58. To: Pericles, Redleghunter, Sneakypete (#43)
This debate is stupid and goes to show Americans were mind frakked over the Iraq war. It also does not help that post war Kyle came off as barely literate - the book of his was ghost written and probably not based on any real life events and was designed as pro Iraq war propaganda for all we know. I actually question the number of kills he did. He could have been chosen because he was not so bright and would not question his role. Kyle was a SEAL, and stupid men do not get in a Special Ops unit. Furthermore, those were confirmed kills, and not based only on Kyle's word. Besides the proven lie that he hit Jesse Ventura in a bar fight (which was a fake story to undermine a populist anti-war/Bush persona with a bona fide military pedigree) but Kyle lied about killing carjackers in Texas and that he was flown to New Orleans during Katrina and he sniped gang members from the roof of the astrodome there. All proven lies. The Astrodome is not in New Orleans. I can tell you Ventura has told some whoppers IMHO. He was never a SEAL, but went through UDT training, which really didn't compare to what SEALS experience. so suddenly this movie comes out that is more fake than the book and this re-ignites the old debate about the Bush justified war in Iraq vs those who knew the was was BS and Kyle stands for the BS of it all. Kyle very likely told some lies, but his combat record is genuine.
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
#59. To: GarySpFC (#58)
Yeah, well, er, um, it's only 350 miles away.
The Astrodome is not in New Orleans.
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
#60. To: TooConservative, CZ82, GarySpFc (#18)
Well it does take skill. And yes you have to have brass bells to be an SF sniper. Here's a typical scenario. The team's mission is to conduct a mission in a constrained urban area. Strike time is 2200 hours. Sniper leaves alone with minimal ammunition and communications hours if not the day or night before to recon his site. He is alone, trying to blend in with locals and then he finds his spot sets up and waits...alone. No one covers him, he could be under observation thus putting the team at risk. The team shows up within his field of view or on comms. Sniper provides overwatch. If he shoots, he has to move, thus exposing himself. To be honest I would rather be in an F16 dropping PGMs from 16k ft than have my 4th point of contact out in the wind. So they are brave and know some who are snipers in the Army and Marines. A lot braver than the internet jockies blathering about elementary school murderers. I mean it's not like flying large passenger airplanes into skyscrapers.
The argument is over whether it is a heroic act, whether it is an example of warrior courage in the face of personal danger.
"Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools " (Romans 1:21-22)
#61. To: redleghunter (#60)
As opposed to a few of these on the thread:And yes you have to have brass bells to be an SF sniper.
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
#62. To: Pericles (#56)
What we discovered is that an account of the incident was written by best-selling author Marcus Luttrell in his most recent book, Service: A Navy SEAL at War. Here’s an excerpt from pages 282-283: On a bitterly cold morning in early January of 2009, the war, in a sense, found Chris again. What happened to him not far from his home outside Dallas never made the news, since the town involved didn’t want the publicity, but the incident certainly would have made national headlines had a reporter ever gotten a tip about it. Chris was minding his own business, fueling his pickup truck at a gas station, when he found himself at gunpoint. Two men holding pistols demanded his truck. Law enforcement will usually advise you to give in to the criminal in a situation like this. And that’s good advice. But Chris took another route. Very calmly and coolly, he sized up which of the men was handling his pistol more comfortably. He put his hands up and told them he was going to reach into the truck to get his keys. Then his hand went under his coat. From a waistband holster, he pulled his Colt 1911. Swinging the pistol under his left armpit, he gave each robber two .45 caliber Hydra-Shock hollow- points to the chest. By the time the cops responded to the 911 call from the terrified lady who had locked herself in a car behind Chris’s truck, the matter was settled. Elapsed time: about ten seconds. The service station’s security cameras caught the whole thing. I pray for anyone whose life gets so desperate that he or she chooses to resort to a life of crime, but it’s hard to resist a little cold laughter all the same: I mean, how unlucky a dumbass do you have to be to target a random guy for felony armed assault and find out he’s killed more people than smallpox? your link is bad. Read more here: http://blogs.star-telegram.com/crime_time/2013/02/did-slain- american-sniper-fatally-shoot-two-armed-robbers-in-2009.html#storylink=cpy
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
#63. To: Pericles, GarySpFc (#49)
SEALs are not stupid. The USN goes to great efforts to recruit the most physically fit, and bright to compete. Their training is physically, mentally and psychologically demanding. Only the best in the Navy become SEALS. I heard Kyle speak on TV a few times. He has a southern drawl which for a Yankee or city dweller may seem unintelligent. I grew up in Urban NY and educated in NYC. So perhaps that is your perspective. One of which I quickly learned in military service was a bad stereotype. Navy SEALS are no rubes. If Kyle was as dimwitted as you claim, he would have perished in scuba/dive school or even BUDS.
I did not say anything about Kyle other than he seemed not too bright or ill educated based on the way he talked.
"Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools " (Romans 1:21-22)
#64. To: Pericles (#56)
Thanks and very interesting as I never heard of these accounts. But you have to account for the difference between what is a confirmed mission report in combat that some senior officer has to sign off on and the personal States side accounts of Kyle.
"Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools " (Romans 1:21-22)
#65. To: Pericles (#52)
I mean find the quote so we can all read it in context. You'll have to ask Jesse what he meant. http://www.infowars.com/jesse-ventura-gets-backing-of-former-seals-in-lawsuit-over-punch-hoax/ “He never hit me, I don’t even know who he is,” said Ventura
What do you mean by "know"
#66. To: Palmdale, GarySpFc (#61)
You should post that over at the site which published this piece.
"Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools " (Romans 1:21-22)
#67. To: Pericles, Redleghunter, Palmdale (#66)
copied from another site: Leslie255 Sep 8, 2012
Jesse Ventura is a liar, cheat, briber and phony Navy SEAL. Even his name is phony. He is James Janos. This is all documented in my book, “Always Cheat” The Philosophy of Jesse Ventura. My book cancelled Ventura’s plans to run for a second term as Minnesota Governor. I knocked Ventura and his son off the Government Center Plaza in Minneapolis where they were trying to befriend the Occupy Movement people, some of whom Ventura victimized when he supported torture at the Highway 55 police raid. You can find "Always Cheat" at Amazon.com or Barnes and Noble. In the Twin Cities "Always Cheat" can be found at most libraries. Or contact me for a complimentary copy. Leslie Davis, President www.EarthProtector.org 612-529-5253
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
#68. To: Pericles, Redleghunter, Palmdale (#52)
From another site; http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/2012/08/jesse_ventura_got_his_ass_kick ed_in_a_california_bar_fellow_seal_says.php Ventura is so upset over that passage, he's sued Kyle in federal court for defamation, misappropriation of his likeness, and unjust enrichment. The suit says "The entire story about a confrontation with and physical assault and battery of Governor Ventura was false and defamatory." A judge is scheduled to hear arguments on October 10. But Kyle isn't backing down. In a motion filed Tuesday, eight eyewitnesses provide sworn statements corroborating different parts of Kyle's account of his throwdown with Minnesota's ex-guv. In one of them, SEAL Jeremiah Dinnell says Ventura was "being a jackass." "That's when Chris punched him," Dinnell wrote. "All of us wanted to. Chris was just the first one to pop him." In the Capitol, at bars, or in the squared-circle -- no matter the context, Jesse is apparently just a tough guy to get along with.
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
#69. To: GarySpFC (#68)
Most pompous, egotistical conspiracy proponents are.
Jesse is apparently just a tough guy to get along with.
#70. To: Pericles (#69)
From: http://www.startribune.com/local/167764165.html Kyle retired from the Navy in 2009. He served four combat tours in Iraq and elsewhere, and was awarded two Silver Stars, five Bronze Stars with Valor, two Navy and Marine Corp Achievement Medals, and one Navy and Marine Corps Commendation. "The Navy credits me with more kills as a sniper than any other American service member, past or present," he said in a court filing. Kyle said he and two co-authors wrote "American Sniper." "The events that happened in the book are true," he said. "I reconstructed dialogue from memory, which means that it may not be word for word. But the essence of what was said is accurate." The witnesses' declarations generally agree with Kyle's description of the alleged fight at McP's Irish Pub in Coronado. Kyle and his friends were having a wake for Mikey Mansoor, a SEAL who threw himself onto a grenade to save his comrades and was posthumously awarded the Medal of Honor. Eyewitness accounts Debbie Lee, who lost her son, Navy SEAL Marc Lee, in Iraq, said the group was mournful and respectful. "It was not a belly-up-to-the-bar type of event," she wrote. One of her son's SEAL teammates introduced her to Ventura, whom she found offensive. She said she heard him criticize the war and called President George Bush a jerk. Ventura could only talk about himself, she said. "He did not say he was sorry for my loss." Bob Gassoff, the SEAL who introduced Lee to Ventura, said the former governor wore a beard braided into pony tails and a blue SEAL team hat. "He was badmouthing the war and President Bush. He was upsetting the families of deceased SEALs," Gassoff said. Andrew Paul, a reservist Navy SEAL, said he notified Mansoor's family about his death and helped carry his body off the plane. "I grew up watching [the movie] 'Predator' and professional wrestling. I thought it would be cool to meet 'The Body,'" he said. But Ventura's behavior that night revolted him, Paul said. "He was saying the wrong things in the wrong place at the wrong time. In my opinion, he was being as anti-American as you can possibly get. Now, he would probably argue that he was being very American by challenging the government, but for a bunch of guys who had just laid their lives on the line for their country and who were at a wake for their fallen comrade, he's lucky the punch to the face is all he got." Most of those swearing out declarations said they didn't see Kyle hit Ventura, but claim they saw the commotion and the aftermath as Kyle took off and Ventura clambered up from the ground with blood on his face. Jeremiah Dinnell, an active-duty SEAL, was the exception. "I heard Ventura say that we shouldn't be over in Iraq, doing what we were doing," he said. "And then he said that the SEALs deserved to lose some guys because of what we were doing. "That's when Chris punched him. All of us wanted to. Chris was just the first one to pop him." Dan Browning • 612-673-4493
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
#71. To: GarySpFC (#70)
Well, Jesse is a pompous, egotistical, revolting person.
Ventura's behavior that night revolted him, Paul said.
#72. To: GarySpFC, Pericles (#70)
Gary as you know valor awards, especially the above ones, require a minimum of three eyewitness sworn statements.
Kyle retired from the Navy in 2009. He served four combat tours in Iraq and elsewhere, and was awarded two Silver Stars, five Bronze Stars with Valor, two Navy and Marine Corp Achievement Medals, and one Navy and Marine Corps Commendation.
"Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools " (Romans 1:21-22)
#73. To: GarySpFC (#67) (Edited)
Jesse Ventura Considers Himself A Libertarian Marxist 
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
#74. To: Otter (#71)
Jesse Ventura Promotes Marxism
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
#75. To: redleghunter (#66)
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
#76. To: Palmdale (#73)
That interview http://dailycaller.com/2012/10/02/jesse-ventura-castros-man-of-courage/ only reinforces the observation that Jesse is like the Minnesota state bird.
#77. To: GarySpFC (#58)
Kyle was a SEAL, and stupid men do not get in a Special Ops unit. Furthermore, those were confirmed kills, and not based only on Kyle's word. Besides the proven lie that he hit Jesse Ventura in a bar fight (which was a fake story to undermine a populist anti-war/Bush persona with a bona fide military pedigree) but Kyle lied about killing carjackers in Texas and that he was flown to New Orleans during Katrina and he sniped gang members from the roof of the astrodome there. All proven lies. The Astrodome is not in New Orleans. I can tell you Ventura has told some whoppers IMHO. He was never a SEAL, but went through UDT training, which really didn't compare to what SEALS experience. so suddenly this movie comes out that is more fake than the book and this re-ignites the old debate about the Bush justified war in Iraq vs those who knew the was was BS and Kyle stands for the BS of it all. Kyle very likely told some lies, but his combat record is genuine. Kyle was a high school graduate with a sports background from Texas - not known for breeding scholars and sports stars. SEALS that are athletic but not well read do better than bookworms in training I imagine. Let's not pretend SEALS are warriors AND scholars. Astrodome - superdome. In any case Kyle lied about shooting people there as part of some Blackwater type deal. I can't tell if his combat record is accurate or if the govt made him a hero because it served some propaganda aim. Let us say instead of telling lies Kyle was a confabulator and such a man makes a perfect hero to a war lacking any appeal to the American public.
This debate is stupid and goes to show Americans were mind frakked over the Iraq war. It also does not help that post war Kyle came off as barely literate - the book of his was ghost written and probably not based on any real life events and was designed as pro Iraq war propaganda for all we know. I actually question the number of kills he did. He could have been chosen because he was not so bright and would not question his role.
#78. To: Otter (#76)
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
#79. To: GarySpFC (#62) (Edited)
Read more here: http://blogs.star-telegram.com/crime_time/2013/02/did-slain- american-sniper-fatally-shoot-two-armed-robbers-in-2009.html#storylink=cpy I posted another link where Kyle recounted the incident himself. The reporter went looking for proof and found none. The reporter did not want death threats from internet fans of the war hero so said it was part of his 'legend' and facts no longer mattered. http://www.dmagazine.com/publications/d-magazine/2013/april/the-legend-of- chris-kyle-01?single=1 During the interview in which he discussed the gas station incident, he didn’t say where it happened. Most versions of the story have him in Cleburne, not far from Fort Worth. The Cleburne police chief says that if such an incident did happen, it wasn’t in his town. Every other chief of police along Highway 67 says the same thing. Public information requests produced no police reports, no coroner reports, nothing from the Texas Rangers or the Department of Public Safety. I stopped at every gas station along 67, Business 67 in Cleburne, and 10 miles in either direction. Nobody had heard of anything like that happening.
our link is bad.
#80. To: Pericles (#77)
That's a pretty lame apology.
Astrodome - superdome.
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
#81. To: Palmdale (#80)
That's a pretty lame apology. Why should I apologize for confusing the name of a sports arena?
Astrodome - superdome.
#82. To: redleghunter (#63)
Fit, yes. Bright?
SEALs are not stupid. The USN goes to great efforts to recruit the most physically fit, and bright to compete.
#83. To: Pericles (#82)
Astrodome - superdome.
Bright?
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
#84. To: GarySpFC, Redleghunter, Palmdale (#67)
Right there I discount the guy's rant. Actors (which is what he was a stage actor using wrestling) have stage names and many states allow candidates to run for office with nicknames, etc under which they are popularly known. To claim this is a reason he is a liar because he does not use his birth name is just laughable. And SEAL is nothing special. Ventura was in the same military unit before they were given the cooler and more catchy SEAL's name. I am not a fan of Ventura and found his conspiracy shows laughably bad - I only bring him up because he won a slander/libel lawsuit in court against Kyle proving with evidence that Kyle lied.
esse Ventura is a liar, cheat, briber and phony Navy SEAL. Even his name is phony. He is James Janos.
#85. To: Palmdale (#83)
I don't follow what passes for sports in America so the names of the toilets Americans call stadiums sometimes slips my mind.
Bright? Astrodome - superdome.
#86. To: Pericles (#85)
Bright? Not.
I don't follow what passes for sports in America
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
#87. To: Pericles (#77)
Your opinion is not based upon facts. You're nothing but an uninformed propagandist. Texas - not known for breeding scholars and sports stars.
#88. To: GarySpFC (#68)
Kyle's side LOST the case - their eyewitnesses were found lacking in truthfulness or facts. http://www.startribune.com/local/269042071.html July 30: Ventura wins $1.84 million: ‘Overjoyed reputation restored’ http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/ventura-verdict In attendance that night was Chris Kyle, a SEAL sniper whom I wrote about last year for the magazine, and Jesse Ventura, the former professional wrestler and Minnesota governor, who, in the nineteen-seventies, was a member of the Underwater Demolition Teams, a predecessor to the SEALs. According to Kyle, Ventura had been speaking loudly about his opposition to the Iraq War; Kyle asked Ventura to keep his opinions to himself; Ventura said the SEALs deserved to “lose a few guys,” upon which Kyle punched him and Ventura “went down.” Or so Kyle had said. Ventura says that he remembers the night quite differently, and that he neither disparaged SEALs nor, for that matter, was hit by Kyle. Two weeks ago, testifying in court, he characterized Kyle’s story as “a fabricated lie.” The dispute between Kyle and Ventura originated in January, 2012. Kyle’s memoir, “American Sniper: The Autobiography of the Most Lethal Sniper in U.S. Military History,” had just come out, and was a runaway best-seller. In the book, Kyle told his story of the night in the bar without naming Ventura, whom he referred to as “Scruff Face.” During a radio interview to promote the book, Kyle conceded that Scruff Face was, in fact, Ventura, who was wearing his beard in braids, like Jack Sparrow, at the time. Ventura sued for defamation. Ventura’s case seemed, at first, like a futile one: the credibility of a two-time Silver Star recipient pitched against that of a loudmouth former rival of Hulk Hogan with a penchant for conspiracy theories. Ventura has uttered comments that made the “lose a few” line seem plausible: he once referred to the United States as “the Fascist States of America”; he was a vocal opponent of the Iraq War and, in general, of American foreign policy; he reportedly believed that 9/11 was an inside job; he refused to salute the American flag and had moved to Mexico in protest; and he had attempted to sue the Transportation Security Administration for failing to afford him sufficient respect. Explaining his row with the T.S.A. in 2011 on the Robert Scott Bell radio show, he said, “It is not reasonable to believe that Jesse Ventura, who has been flying for thirty years, who’s an honorably discharged Navy veteran, a former mayor, and a former governor, presents a threat. And I do not want to be searched anymore.” A year after the lawsuit was filed, Kyle was murdered at a gun range by a former Marine struggling with post-traumatic stress disorder—a young man he’d tried to mentor and help. But one thing I learned about Kyle, apart from his military exploits and his generosity toward other veterans, was his propensity for embellishment. More than one person I spoke to remembered him telling a story about how he’d travelled to New Orleans in the days after Hurricane Katrina and, in a bid to establish law and order, had set up a sniper position on the roof of the Superdome and shot numerous looters. He told another story, too, about how he’d shot and killed two men at a gas station outside of Dallas after they tried to rob him—and was then allowed to flee the scene, without penalty, because a police officer recognized his contributions to the country. Both stories might have occurred. But, in numerous interviews and records requests, I turned up no verifiable evidence that they had. A successful defamation case depends on two points: that the information is false, and that it was intentionally spread in order to damage someone’s reputation. Public figures who file such a libel suit are required to show “reckless disregard for the truth.” Both sides in Minneapolis called witnesses. One of Kyle’s former SEAL teammates said that he’d heard Ventura “bashing” President Bush and making the comment about how the SEALs deserved to “lose some guys,” before being decked by Kyle. “It’s something that sticks with you,” the SEAL said. But no one else from Kyle’s side seemed to have witnessed the entire event: some heard Ventura badmouthing U.S. policies; some saw Ventura go down; some saw a melee that followed. (Kyle had said that he didn’t stick around, and took off running, after landing the punch.) A witness for Ventura, himself a former SEAL who had accompanied the former governor to the pub that night, said he neither saw Ventura get hit nor heard him speak ill of SEALs. The witness’s wife testified that she heard Ventura say, “I don’t think this war is worth one SEAL dying for,” but she felt that the comment “expressed love,” not rancor.
But Kyle isn't backing down. In a motion filed Tuesday, eight eyewitnesses provide sworn statements corroborating different parts of Kyle's account of his throwdown with Minnesota's ex-guv.
#89. To: Otter (#87)
Texas, home of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. 
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
#90. To: Pericles (#88)
www.infowars.com/jesse-ve...-lawsuit-over-punch-hoax/ “He never hit me, I don’t even know who he is,” said Ventura Jesse is a liar.
#91. To: Pericles (#85)
So if you don't follow sports in America, how can you know that American stadiums are toilets? You are either a fool or a liar.
I don't follow what passes for sports in America so the names of the toilets Americans call stadiums sometimes slips my mind.
#92. To: Otter (#91)
Well, there are people that know a lot about public restrooms.So if you don't follow sports in America, how can you know that American stadiums are toilets?
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
#93. To: Palmdale (#89)
Populated by non-Texans and there because of LBJ.
Texas, home of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration.
#94. To: Otter (#90)
“He never hit me, I don’t even know who he is,” said Ventura Jesse is a liar. Jesse proved Kyle was a filthy liar.
www.infowars.com/jesse-ve...-lawsuit-over-punch-hoax/
#95. To: Pericles (#93)
You're not very bright.
Populated by non-Texans
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
#96. To: Pericles (#94)
www.infowars.com/jesse-ve...-lawsuit-over-punch-hoax/ “He never hit me, I don’t even know who he is,” said Ventura Jesse is a liar. You defend liars.
#97. To: Otter, Palmdale (#91)
So if you don't follow sports in America, how can you know that American stadiums are toilets? You are either a fool or a liar. I am an American ex pat. I leave the toilet sports to you Yanks. Sunday is when 2 teams that will develop life altering brain damaged concussions will play and Americans will gorge themselves more than usual otherwise known as any given Sunday.
I don't follow what passes for sports in America so the names of the toilets Americans call stadiums sometimes slips my mind.
#98. To: Pericles (#97)
You failed yet again. I understand why you should not be present in this great country. You would soil it.
I am an American ex pat.
#99. To: Pericles (#97)
So?
I am an American ex pat.
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
#100. To: Palmdale (#92)
Pericles is an embarrassment. Glad he is no longer in the country. Of course, the likelihood he is lying is astronomical.
#101. To: Otter (#100)
Where did he go anyway? Pakistan?Glad he is no longer in the country.
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
#102. To: Palmdale (#101)
I don't know who would have him.
Where did he go anyway? Pakistan?
#103. To: redleghunter (#53)
Combat veterans usually don't like the war movies. Or war in general. Fanbois who have never served are the big market for these things.
I for one probably won't see the movie. Had quite my fill of the real motion picture and have the six hash marks to prove it.
#104. To: Otter, Palmdale (#102)
I am in America for 6 months then off to Europe for the warmer months. I am blessed.
#105. To: Pericles (#57)
Generally, artillery over the last century is used against enemy armies and their assets. So you might compare artillery to a classic WW II sniper but in practice it just isn't accurate.
I don't recall which nation's soldier said it or if it was in WW1 or WW2 but artillery spotters boasted in history book I read that they were snipers with larger guns.
#106. To: TooConservative (#103)
I want to say again, I think Kyle was used by FOX owned Harper Collins books via professional ghostwriters to invent a war narrative where he is doing what FOX viewers love to see done in a war.
Combat veterans usually don't like the war movies. Or war in general. Fanbois who have never served are the big market for these things.
#107. To: TooConservative (#105)
Generally, artillery over the last century is used against enemy armies and their assets. So you might compare artillery to a classic WW II sniper but in practice it just isn't accurate. In WW1 and WW2 artillery was used againsts snipers, etc. In fact that is still Russian doctrine. If a building has a sniper in it - blow up the building.
I don't recall which nation's soldier said it or if it was in WW1 or WW2 but artillery spotters boasted in history book I read that they were snipers with larger guns.
#108. To: Pericles (#104)
So are we for the 6 months you are in Europe.
I am blessed.
#109. To: Otter (#108) (Edited)
I will be posting even more on here since I would be working Euro hours so you will indeed be blessed with more postings.
I am blessed. So are we for the 6 months you are in Europe.
#110. To: redleghunter (#60)
The so-called sniper-scout. I mentioned the differences between what people think about snipers earlier, the contrast between WW II classic snipers and the modern variants that we lump together as snipers. With regard to the targets of a sniper, there is no difference. It is still like shooting fish in a barrel or kids in a classroom. Helpless targets, completely unprepared. Like shooting a deer from a quarter-mile away. Maybe we should look at snipers from another angle. 2011 Chinook shootdown in Afghanistan "The resulting crash killed all 38 people on board—25 American special operations personnel, five United States Army National Guard and Army Reserve crewmen, seven Afghan commandos, and one Afghan interpreter—as well as a U.S. military working dog." AFAIK, they still maintain it was brought down by a RPG (rocket-propelled grenade). That meant the guy who fired it had to be close and that meant he was in a lot of danger to fire at so many SEALs like that. So the RPG guy was essentially a sniper with an RPG. Was he brave? Was he a patriot of Afghanistan and a freedom fighter? Or just a terrorist? And the SEALs were helpless victims in that Chinook. Like the kids Lanza shot were helpless victims. Like shooting a deer from a quarter-mile away with a scope. As for your description of the sniper-scout, are they actually any braver than our ordinary infantry who go door-to-door in sweeps in a hostile town? I don't think so. I think Eastwood was trying to raise some of these questions in his movie but the Right and Left are having such a food fight over it that no one is seeing it with a lot of their own biases and political grudges injected into it. Directors often have this problem with their audiences on controversial topics.
Here's a typical scenario. The team's mission is to conduct a mission in a constrained urban area. Strike time is 2200 hours. Sniper leaves alone with minimal ammunition and communications hours if not the day or night before to recon his site. He is alone, trying to blend in with locals and then he finds his spot sets up and waits...alone. No one covers him, he could be under observation thus putting the team at risk. The team shows up within his field of view or on comms. Sniper provides overwatch. If he shoots, he has to move, thus exposing himself.
A lot braver than the internet jockies blathering about elementary school murderers. I mean it's not like flying large passenger airplanes into skyscrapers.
#111. To: Pericles (#109)
Good, I like shooting down anti-American, lefty trash.
#112. To: TooConservative (#110)
During the Iraq invasion I read a report an Iraqi sniper killed the Abrams driver and that caused the tank to roll off a bridge and into the drink. http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-03-31-tanks-crew- cover_x.htm Late Monday, U.S. Central Command in Qatar released a statement that said a preliminary investigation of the incident suggested that the tank's driver was shot and killed before the tank plunged off the unfinished bridge and into the Euphrates. Navy divers reported that the tank landed upside down, on its turret, and that the turret wedged into the muddy floor of the river. Crews train to escape from an overturned tank but not one under water. Even if the crew had been able to open a hatch, a difficult task, water would have rushed in, making escape nearly impossible.
So the RPG guy was essentially a sniper with an RPG. Was he brave? Was he a patriot of Afghanistan and a freedom fighter? Or just a terrorist?
#113. To: Otter (#111)
Let me know when you do it - so far your efforts are failing. PS: I maybe anti-American (debatable) but I am not a leftist.
Good, I like shooting down anti-American, lefty trash.
#114. To: Pericles (#88)
It certainly tends to discount his other narratives. Why he thought being a sniper against looters in NOLA would be admired is a question that was never answered. It does tell us a lot about our military and their willingness to fire on American civilians. And all these SEALs appearing on TV and writing books is against the SEAL code. SEALs are supposed to only act as a group, never as individuals. They're supposed to keep who they are and other info about the program secret. You see the controversy with many SEALs saying that these SEALs writing books about the bin Laden raid are no longer welcome at SEAL reunions and hangouts. The guy who claims (disputed) that he shot bin Laden is an example. I can tell by watching his interviews that he is lying about something big but we'll probably never find out what it was.
But one thing I learned about Kyle, apart from his military exploits and his generosity toward other veterans, was his propensity for embellishment. More than one person I spoke to remembered him telling a story about how he’d travelled to New Orleans in the days after Hurricane Katrina and, in a bid to establish law and order, had set up a sniper position on the roof of the Superdome and shot numerous looters. He told another story, too, about how he’d shot and killed two men at a gas station outside of Dallas after they tried to rob him—and was then allowed to flee the scene, without penalty, because a police officer recognized his contributions to the country. Both stories might have occurred. But, in numerous interviews and records requests, I turned up no verifiable evidence that they had.
#115. To: TooConservative (#110)
Not even close! Lanza shot children at point blank range inside a building.
Like the kids Lanza shot were helpless victims. Like shooting a deer from a quarter-mile away with a scope.
#116. To: Pericles (#113)
Already have. Apparently you aren't intelligent enough to realize it. You can't tell the difference between an article's content and a reader's comment, lefty.
Let me know when you do it -
#117. To: Pericles, redleghunter (#107)
Certainly. I wouldn't be surprised if that still happens, especially in the Iraq occupation. But a military sniper is a military asset and few object to using snipers or choppers or artillery or any other means to wipe out an enemy sniper.
In WW1 and WW2 artillery was used againsts snipers, etc. In fact that is still Russian doctrine. If a building has a sniper in it - blow up the building.
#118. To: Otter (#115)
So you're saying that Lanza was braver than a classic sniper because the kiddies might have attacked him or a teacher might have attacked from behind a door with a sharp object. Or a local cop might have stopped through the school for a DARE visit or other reasons. Keep in mind, I make these comparisons from the perspective of the targets posing any danger to the sniper, i.e. whether they can defend themselves in any way from sniper attack.
Not even close! Lanza shot children at point blank range inside a building.
#119. To: TooConservative (#118)
Are you drunk or high on junk?
So you're saying that Lanza was braver than a classic sniper
#120. To: TooConservative (#118)
No, you don't believe that's what he was saying.
So you're saying that Lanza was braver than a classic sniper because the kiddies might have attacked him
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
#121. To: TooConservative (#114) (Edited)
The Bush admin opening the door to Blackwater - they seem to hire special forces who retire early to go work for these new merc outfits - degraded the American esprit de corps of the SEALS. Suddenly you have rich SEALs at reunions and that has to be responsible for SEALs risking their reputations and their honor for cash. The cool thing about the SEAL raid on OBL was it was done as a unit - it really is no big deal who shot an old dick like OBL who is not exactly a combat threat - it actually takes away the mystique to the point you are a SEAL boasting about shooting an old man who tried to hide behind a woman. Also, good point about the NOLA story - when I read that I took it for real from Kyle and was like "holy shit! ex special forces snipers gunned down Americans on city streets and no one reported it!!!" And then kind of forgot about it when I heard reports it was Kyle being a liar. But if this was a lie Kyle made up to make himself look good - he assumed it was a story that made him look heroic - then in real life would he or his SF pals have a problem shooting Americans in the streets for money?
You see the controversy with many SEALs saying that these SEALs writing books about the bin Laden raid are no longer welcome at SEAL reunions and hangouts. The guy who claims (disputed) that he shot bin Laden is an example. I can tell by watching his interviews that he is lying about something big but we'll probably never find out what it was.
#122. To: Pericles (#112)
I thought most modern U.S. tanks had a small, inward-swinging escape hatch on the bottom chassis. Which would not be sealed by outside water pressure. Most likely, the crew was unconscious anyway and just drowned.
Crews train to escape from an overturned tank but not one under water. Even if the crew had been able to open a hatch, a difficult task, water would have rushed in, making escape nearly impossible.
#123. To: Otter (#119)
He got spanked worse than usual earlier today and it has left him a bit unhinged.
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
#124. To: Otter (#116) (Edited)
Already have. Apparently you aren't intelligent enough to realize it. You can't tell the difference between an article's content and a reader's comment, lefty. Ha! You think a blog is an article! How dumb are you? That was precious.
Let me know when you do it -
#125. To: Pericles (#121)
Yeah but one guy claims he's the shooter, others dispute it. You see why the SEAL code was important to their success and cohesiveness. Now people know where the SEAL bars are, which beaches they train at, etc. If he wrote that, then you have to assume at least some SEALs would be just fine with shooting other Americans here in the States. How else could you interpret it?
The cool thing about the SEAL raid on OBL was it was done as a unit - it really is no big deal who shot an old dick like OBL who is not exactly a combat threat - it actually takes away the mystique to the point you are a SEAL boasting about shooting an old man who tried to hide behind a woman.
Suddenly you have rich SEALs at reunions and that has to be responsible for SEALs risking their reputations and their honor for cash.
Also, good point about the NOLA story - when I read that I took it for real from Kyle and was like "holy shit! ex special forces snipers gunned down Americans on city streets and no one reported it!!!" And then kind of forgot about it when I heard reports it was Kyle being a liar. But if this was a lie Kyle made up to make himself look good - he assumed it was a story that made him look heroic - then in real life would he or his SF pals have a problem shooting Americans in the streets for money?
#126. To: TooConservative (#122)
The inrushing water would be too much for them if they were conscious - I imagine they were not wearing seatbelts and the tumbling could cause a lot of damage to a human body. But that was an amazing shot by the Iraqi if that caused the kill.
thought most modern U.S. tanks had a small, inward-swinging escape hatch on the bottom chassis. Which would not be sealed by outside water pressure. Most likely, the crew was unconscious anyway and just drowned.
#127. To: Pericles (#124)
An article is a written work published in a print or electronic medium. You really aren't too bright and you aren't intelligent enough to know when you've been drawn and quartered.
You think a blog is an article!
#128. To: Palmdale (#123)
Are you sure it isn't the result of intoxication?
He got spanked worse than usual earlier today and it has left him a bit unhinged.
#129. To: TooConservative (#125) (Edited)
Also, good point about the NOLA story - when I read that I took it for real from Kyle and was like "holy shit! ex special forces snipers gunned down Americans on city streets and no one reported it!!!" And then kind of forgot about it when I heard reports it was Kyle being a liar. But if this was a lie Kyle made up to make himself look good - he assumed it was a story that made him look heroic - then in real life would he or his SF pals have a problem shooting Americans in the streets for money? If he wrote that, then you have to assume at least some SEALs would be just fine with shooting other Americans here in the States. How else could you interpret it? Also, Kyle's lie about killing the 2 carjackers and then the cops making the evidence disappear for him after they find out he is this SF guy. Story was complete BS but that means in his mind that is how it would go down if he or any special forces assassinated an American for money or on orders. Police would cover it up after. That is a scary thought now that you made me think of it from that perspective.
You see why the SEAL code was important to their success and cohesiveness. Now people know where the SEAL bars are, which beaches they train at, etc.
#130. To: Otter (#127)
Someone's response to an article (which he linked) which was then responded to. It is not an "article".
An article is a written work published in a print or electronic medium. You really aren't too bright and you aren't intelligent enough to know when you've been drawn and quartered.
#131. To: Pericles (#126)
There are great shots and lucky shots. Then there are great lucky shots. Because we live in a chaotic universe.
But that was an amazing shot by the Iraqi if that caused the kill.
#132. To: Pericles (#129)
It opens a new perspective on Kyle's mind and attitudes. You also have to question taking a PTSD soldier to a firing range as a matter of personal judgment. I get the approach of get-back-on-the-horse but it obviously didn't turn out too well for Kyle.
Also, Kyle's lie about killing the 2 carjackers and then the cops making the evidence disappear for him after they find out he is this SF guy. Story was complete BS but that means in his mind that is how it would go down if he or any special forces assassinated an American for money or on orders. Police would cover it up after. That is a scary thought now that you made me think of it from that perspective.
#133. To: Pericles (#130)
Put the bong down, lefty. You're just making a bigger fool of yourself.
#134. To: TooConservative (#131)
There are great shots and lucky shots. Then there are great lucky shots. Because we live in a chaotic universe. That would have been a Medal Of Honor winning shot if done by an American on an enemy tank.
But that was an amazing shot by the Iraqi if that caused the kill.
#135. To: Otter (#133) (Edited)
Go find some more blogs to read and think they are news articles. Clearly, that is the level you are at. And please, I am not a lefty but will accept being called anti-American or traitor or enemy of America, etc. Not entirely accurate but acceptable.
#136. To: Pericles (#135)
An article is a written work published in a print or electronic medium, lefty.
#137. To: Otter (#136) (Edited)
No, it is someone commenting on someone's opinion. It is no different than what we do commenting on articles. I guess my comments on here can be "articles" now.
n article is a written work published in a print or electronic medium, lefty.
#138. To: Pericles (#134)
Maybe. My understanding is that a single shot from a sniper has to be awesomely skillful (very long distance) and the operator has to be in considerable danger while taking it. Getting medals for a single-shot is pretty rare. Our military has some truly great shooters. Even our regular Army infantry have some very scary shooters in the ranks.
That would have been a Medal Of Honor winning shot if done by an American on an enemy tank.
#139. To: TooConservative (#138)
Our military has some truly great shooters. Even our regular Army infantry have some very scary shooters in the ranks. The article made it sound the tank crew got left behind and the tank driver probably had his head exposed outside of the hatch.
Maybe. My understanding is that a single shot from a sniper has to be awesomely skillful (very long distance) and the operator has to be in considerable danger while taking it. Getting medals for a single-shot is pretty rare.
#140. To: Pericles (#137)
Your stubborn ignorance is pathetic, lefty. www.thefreedictionary.com/article www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/article a piece of writing about a particular subject that is included in a magazine, newspaper, etc.
#141. To: Pericles (#43)
Exactly so. The blather over this movie is just a continuation of the same fight the Left and Right were having back before the Bush surge and after it. Lots of people have deep opinions of it despite never seeing it. That should tell us a lot.
so suddenly this movie comes out that is more fake than the book and this re-ignites the old debate about the Bush justified war in Iraq vs those who knew the was was BS and Kyle stands for the BS of it all.
#142. To: Pericles (#139)
Notice how the Kyle fanbois seem to disappear as his lies about killing two guys at the Texas gas station come up and especially his bragging (lies) about running a sniper operation against civilians during Katrina? Suddenly they aren't quite so interested in Kyle.
#143. To: Pericles (#106)
His death and the Ventura lawsuit kinda ruined the planned narratives and book/movie deal. Along with some of the other info that has surfaced. Take a look at Fox News sometime. Even as recently as a few years ago, every guest on FNC was hawking a book. Every one of them. Including all the hosts. It was a bookselling behemoth, one long infomercial for Murdoch-owned publishing houses. Doesn't Murdoch own Regnery as well as Harper? Apparently, they overdid the book schtick so they cut way back on book promotions the last few years. Even O'Blather has stopped hawking his ghostwritten Killing Kennedy/Lincoln/Patton/Jesus books which he promoted for free on virtually every show. And FNC didn't allow that much free advertising unless Murdoch said so. Because he was making even more money and building up his publishing empire as a result of these "free" ads.
I want to say again, I think Kyle was used by FOX owned Harper Collins books via professional ghostwriters to invent a war narrative where he is doing what FOX viewers love to see done in a war.
#144. To: redleghunter (#45)
Actually, I supported the invasion of Afghanistan. I opposed the nationbuilding efforts which will soon reach their inevitable failure as I said all along. I'm not prophetic but these things never end well unless you're willing to garrison a country for at least 50 years. Believing most of the lies told by Powell at the U.N. and the Bush crew in general as they stampeded the public into the Iraq war, I did support the Iraq invasion. But I turned against it when the lies were exposed by the findings at al-Tuwaitha, Saddam's nuclear reservation. The article is by a team from Texas Tech, probably not a Lefty bastion given it is located in Lubbock. The rest of the phony evidence, like Powell's mobile anthrax lab trucks, only piled on. And in Iraq, as in every other conflict, I did oppose any attempts at nationbuilding. I consider our military is in the business of nationbreaking, not nationbuilding. Kill their leaders, kill their military, leave the civilians alone, tell them not to do it again and leave. In Iraq, as in so many other places we've invaded, the problem wasn't in knocking off the local government, it was sticking around afterward. At any rate, I thought I would clarify that I was by no means opposed to either the Iraq invasion at the time or the Afghan invasion.
I know you and many others here are staunchly opposed to our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
#145. To: TooConservative (#33)
And already a page and a half of useless inflammatory drivel. Who knows, maybe he is just old, foolish and uninformed.
After all, he's only been a member here at LF since yesterday.
“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”
#146. To: CZ82 (#145)
He's just new. I don't think LF wants to pull the Viking Kitty routine on newcomers. Of course, he could be a retread type but that always becomes evident in short order.
Who knows, maybe he is just old, foolish and uninformed.
#147. To: CZ82, TooConservative, otter, --- texaggie? (#145)
After all, he's only been a member here at LF since yesterday. ---- TooConservative CZ82 --- And already a page and a half of useless inflammatory drivel. Who knows, maybe he is just old, foolish and uninformed. 'Otter' reminds me of a clown I had fun with on FR. -- His main weird shtick was commenting about my supposed inability to write understandable english. After a few exchanges, his inability to understand clearly written english was evident to all. Perhaps he was dyslexic. I can't remember the handle he used on FR, but I think it had something to do with Texas. -- Maybe 'texaggie'?
I think Otter is just caught in the crossfire. He's not on any particular side.
#148. To: TooConservative (#146)
Ya think? And he'll accuse someone else of being a retread. LOL.
Of course, he could be a retread type but that always becomes evident in short order.
“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”
#149. To: CZ82 (#148)
Yeah but hasn't that been done to death already? : )
Ya think? And he'll accuse someone else of being a retread. LOL.
#150. To: tpaine (#147)
Not Roscoe? Or maybe just another one in a long line of screen names?
I can't remember the handle he used on FR, but I think it had something to do with Texas. -- Maybe 'texaggie'?
“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”
#151. To: CZ82 (#150)
I don't think he's the legendary Roscoe.
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
#152. To: TooConservative (#149)
Not with him he never seems to learn how to become a useful member of society. Guess being trapped in a cardboard box 8 mos out of the year does that to a person.
“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”
#153. To: CZ82 (#150)
Palmdale is obviously roscoe/mojave/whitesands/etc... 'Texaggie' doesn't seem to fit in with the desert series names, but who knows what connections go on in the minds of these weirdos?
Not Roscoe? Or maybe just another one in a long line of screen names?
#154. To: Palmdale (#151)
Legendary at what?
“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”
#155. To: GarySpFC (#58) (Edited)
Ventura still claims he was a SEAL,but he was a UDT Team member in the Philippines when the Navy was doing away with UDT and was asked to volunteer for a SEAL team that was going to be deployed to VN,and Ventura refused. None of which kept him from claiming he was a SEAL for decades,and even though he never claimed to have been a VN Vet SEAL,I have never seen any record of him correcting anyone that made that claim for him. Yes,Venura WAS a SEAL,in the sense that the Navy did away with UDT teams and had no where else to assign him,but he never went through SEAL training (other than basic UDT training) and never deployed anywhere with a SEAL team. He could have,but didn't. He was asked to volunteer,and he refused. BTW,knocking Ventura down and then running away was one of the smartest things that Kyle could have done. Ventura might not have been a SEAL or a combat veteran,but there can be no doubt that when it came to hand to hand combat,he was about as tough as it gets. The man was big,incredibly strong,and wasn't afraid of being hurt. He could also make moves on you that you just don't see anywhere outside of a wrestling right,and aren't prepared for. Make no mistake about it,those fake pro-wrasslers are some of the toughest real world people out there running around. The best move for a unarmed typical bar fighter to make against one of them in real life would be to lead with your chin and hope he knocks you out with the first punch and then gets bored and walks away. If you are used to hitting somebody one time and hurting him and having him want to quit,you need to stay the hell away from those people. They are really and truly tough in every sense of the word. They can not only dish it out,they can also take it.
I can tell you Ventura has told some whoppers IMHO. He was never a SEAL, but went through UDT training, which really didn't compare to what SEALS experience.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
#156. To: CZ82 (#154)
Too funny. There hasn't been a Roscoe post in over 12 years and you're still obsessing over him.
Legendary at what?
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
#157. To: Palmdale (#151)
Me neither. Legendary? The real legend was robertpaulsen. Freepers gathered at his feet to learn. So I've heard.
"I don't think he's the legendary Roscoe."
#158. To: redleghunter (#60) (Edited)
Not really,and especially not in urban areas. They always have spotters with them,and in urban areas their command always knows where they are located and are in constant communication with them. If their "hide" is discovered and they are attacked,command will send out a force to rescue them. BTW,I should confess right here that I am one of those people who see sniping as a necessary evil. I am glad there are other people who are willing to do the job,but I'm not one of them.
Sniper leaves alone with minimal ammunition and communications hours if not the day or night before to recon his site. He is alone, trying to blend in with locals and then he finds his spot sets up and waits...alone.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
#159. To: Palmdale (#61)
Early Jim Rob photo?
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
#160. To: misterwhite (#157)
Well, that goes without saying.
The real legend was robertpaulsen.
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
#161. To: redleghunter (#63)
Neither are the USMC Force Recon guys,or any other Special Operations people. Frankly,I have a hard time believing it is still necessary to remind people of this. My guess is this is a result of the old middle-grade prejudices that nerds and wusses had against guys that were bigger,stronger,and more aggressive than them,and scared them. They convinced themselves that "physical people" were dumber than "thinking people" like themselves because it made them feel better about themselves,and now they believe it to be true.
SEALs are not stupid.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
#162. To: sneakypete (#159)
The moment the Freepathon was invented. 
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
#163. To: sneakypete (#158)
Well said. I don't doubt that most here would agree with you, as I do.
BTW,I should confess right here that I am one of those people who see sniping as a necessary evil. I am glad there are other people who are willing to do the job,but I'm not one of them.. ---- Sneakypete
#164. To: TooConservative (#142)
Suddenly they aren't quite so interested in Kyle Well they deny it at first then they complain my link to the article does not work because they don't want to comment on Kyle the liar at best or worse Kyle the roadside or rooftop killer.
Notice how the Kyle fanbois seem to disappear as his lies about killing two guys at the Texas gas station come up and especially his bragging (lies) about running a sniper operation against civilians during Katrina?
#165. To: redleghunter (#72)
Not in the Navy. John Kerry wrote up his own Silver Star award,and had it approved by Navy brass that were nowhere around when it happened. IIRC,John McLunatic even got a SS while being held as a prisoner in Hanoi and doing no fighting at all.
Gary as you know valor awards, especially the above ones, require a minimum of three eyewitness sworn statements.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
#166. To: Pericles (#164)
You're not very bright.
they complain my link to the article does not work
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
#167. To: Pericles (#77)
And let's not pretend most scholars understand the first thing about being a warrior,never mind being one themselves.
Let's not pretend SEALS are warriors AND scholars.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
#168. To: Pericles (#81)
A scholar wouldn't make a mistake like that.
Why should I apologize for confusing the name of a sports arena?
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
#169. To: Palmdale, misterwhite, Y'ALL (#160)
Well, that goes without saying. --- Palmdale Both robertpaulsen and roscoe are still only legends in their own minds. The rest of us laughed daily at your tag team efforts to pretend you were conservatives.
misterwhite (#157) --- The real legend was robertpaulsen.
#170. To: Pericles (#84)
Wrong again! You not only ain't a warrior,you ain't much of a scholar either,bubba.
Ventura was in the same military unit before they were given the cooler and more catchy SEAL's name.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
#171. To: tpaine (#163)
Me too. I always thought the WW II snipers were the most interesting. The Russians had some awesome snipers and plenty of German targets to hit. They made a significant impact. Of course, the Russians were resisting a genocidal Nazi invasion so you have a certain sympathy for Russkies defending their own country against an invader and so we generally overlook the Soviets' many other horrible shortcomings as a society and country.
BTW,I should confess right here that I am one of those people who see sniping as a necessary evil.
#172. To: sneakypete (#170)
I thought Ventura was supposed to have completed the basic UDT school but left the service about the time the SEALs were created as a program. But I haven't read about it in years. I always knew he was no SEAL, no matter what he said. OTOH, who is going to sue a pro wrestler type, where anything he says he'll just blame on his phony wrestler persona. You'd never manage to nail him on Stolen Valor charges and most of his SEAL claims were made well before that law passed Congress. And Ventura was close enough to being a SEAL that he apparently gets invited to some SEALish events, like that graduation where Kyle claimed (falsely) to have given Ventura a black eye.
#173. To: TooConservative (#103) (Edited)
I LOVED "We Were Soldiers Once,and Young",and "Blackhawk Down". I also liked "Saving Private Ryan" a lot.
Combat veterans usually don't like the war movies
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
#174. To: sneakypete (#167)
And let's not pretend most scholars understand the first thing about being a warrior,never mind being one themselves. Kyle was a high school graduate only. Let us not pretend SEALs are comic book super soldiers.
Let's not pretend SEALS are warriors AND scholars.
#175. To: TooConservative (#110)
Yup. It also means it was a lucky shot for him because they aren't the most accurate weapons in the world,and the rear hatch on a Chinook isn't that big and it is moving. ....and that meant he was in a lot of danger to fire at so many SEALs like that. Not really. The SEALS inside were sitting on seats running the length of the fuselage,and they couldn't return fire. There is generally a machine gunner firing out the ramp door if bad guys are close,but he can't see and shoot at everything when the position is being swarmed.
AFAIK, they still maintain it was brought down by a RPG (rocket-propelled grenade). That meant the guy who fired it had to be close ...
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
#176. To: TooConservative, sneakypete (#172) (Edited)
Since Ventura was a alum of SEAL veteran association - you know open to seal members only - it is a safe bet he was considered a SEAL or a precursor to the SEALS and thus one of them. Notice this was written before the verdict was reached in Ventura's favor and it was secure in the belief that Kyle would beat Ventura. I have to hand it to Ventura for having the internal fortitude to launch a defamation case because those are almost impossible to win for a celebrity unless the defendant is caught in a provable lie. http://sofrep.com/36086/truth-jesse-venturas-navy-seal-status/ I’ve heard the speculation and gossip about Jesse Ventura’s Navy SEAL status and wanted to set the record straight. Jesse Ventura graduated with Basic Underwater Demolition Class 58 and, like it or not, he earned his status. Some say he’s a UDT (Underwater Demolition Team), and not a “SEAL,” but that’s bullshit. Others have seen the flaw in this analogy, and mentioned in private SEAL forums, “try telling that to a WWII UDT veteran who swam ashore before the landing craft on D-Day.” The UDT’s and SEALs are essentially one and the same. It’s why the UDT is still part of the training acronym BUD/S (Basic Underwater Demolition/SEAL). Like it or not, Jesse Ventura is a Navy SEAL. He did the pushups and put up with the cold water, just like the rest of us. Many are rightfully upset that he took a personal issue between himself and the late Chris Kyle and is now going after his widow and children in a lawsuit that is currently in the trial phase. SOFREP has recently spoke with legal insiders who are trial side and they are putting the odds squarely in the court of the Kyle estate in their opinion, and that’s good news for everyone. Read more: http://sofrep.com/36086/truth-jesse-venturas-navy-seal- status/#ixzz3QVuOoZSh
I thought Ventura was supposed to have completed the basic UDT school but left the service about the time the SEALs were created as a program. But I haven't read about it in years. I always knew he was no SEAL, no matter what he said. OTOH, who is going to sue a pro wrestler type, where anything he says he'll just blame on his phony wrestler persona. You'd never manage to nail him on Stolen Valor charges and most of his SEAL claims were made well before that law passed Congress.
#177. To: sneakypete (#175)
Hence my later remarks on how there are great shots and there are lucky shots and then there are great lucky shots that almost defy belief.
t also means it was a lucky shot for him because they aren't the most accurate weapons in the world
#178. To: Pericles (#176)
I'd say he was close enough to being a SEAL. You do notice Ventura has definitely backed off all his SEAL claims since the Stolen Valor law passed. He used to hawk himself that way regularly.
Since Ventura was a alum of SEAL veteran association - you know open to seal members only - it is a safe bet he was considered a SEAL or a precursor to the SEALS and thus one of them.
#179. To: Pericles (#121)
First off,Kyle wasn't Special Forces. He was a SEAL,and in the Navy. ONLY soldiers in the US Army can become Special Forces soldiers. And finally,I don't know of anyone in SF when I was in uniform that would follow orders to snipe at American citizens.
then in real life would he or his SF pals have a problem shooting Americans in the streets for money?
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
#180. To: sneakypete (#173)
To pick a few at random, I like Midway a lot because it helped viewers understand some of the complexities of that decisive battle. And I still like Tora Tora Tora and watch it again every few years. I like the big picture movies, I guess. Especially about Japan as Russia really kicked Germany's ass but Japan was all our war. Of course, I do fast-forward past any parts where they talk about their feelings. I also like sub movies. Probably Das Boot tops my list.
I LOVED "We Were Soldiers Once,and Young",and "Blackhawk Down". I also liked "Saving Private Ryan" a lot.
#181. To: Pericles (#176)
The non-governmental "UDT-SEAL Association"?
Ventura was a alum of SEAL veteran association
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
#182. To: TooConservative (#132)
Yeah,I had a "WTF????" moment over that one,myself. I can only guess it is the "video game mindset" of he younger generation,combined with the fact that snipers kill people at such a distance it doesn't seem real.
You also have to question taking a PTSD soldier to a firing range as a matter of personal judgment.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
#183. To: TooConservative (#178)
You do notice Ventura has definitely backed off all his SEAL claims since the Stolen Valor law passed. He used to hawk himself that way regularly. That law would not affect Ventura. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Valor_Act_of_2013
Since Ventura was a alum of SEAL veteran association - you know open to seal members only - it is a safe bet he was considered a SEAL or a precursor to the SEALS and thus one of them. I'd say he was close enough to being a SEAL.
#184. To: sneakypete, Pericles (#179)
Hey, take it easy on Pericles! He's typing on a smartphone.
First off,Kyle wasn't Special Forces. He was a SEAL,and in the Navy.
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
#185. To: Palmdale (#181)
The non-governmental "UDT-SEAL Association"? They are not capable of assessing who is a SEAL or not? I guess you don't like the private sector after all.
Ventura was a alum of SEAL veteran association
#186. To: TooConservative (#142)
Suddenly they aren't quite so interested in Kyle. Good for them! It speaks highly for them that they are able to use facts as tools to change their opinions.
Notice how the Kyle fanbois seem to disappear as his lies about killing two guys at the Texas gas station come up and especially his bragging (lies) about running a sniper operation against civilians during Katrina?
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
#187. To: Pericles (#185)
UDT, not SEAL. Or are you pretending the UDT-SEAL Association pronounced the wrassler an honorary SEAL or something?
They are not capable of assessing who is a SEAL or not?
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
#188. To: Pericles, sneakypete (#176)
He's entitled to his opinion but the SEAL program became much more extensive in land warfare during the Vietnam era as Ventura was getting out of the service. Fast forward to modern times and SEALs are doing all kinds of stuff completely outside any naval context, going well beyond even what the Marines do. Or, to put it briefly, I'll agree that UDTs are the same as SEALs when you tell me how many campaigns deep in the Mideast deserts or African deserts were fought by UDTs in WW II. Because we know the SEALs operate in jungles, mountains and deserts and are probably ready to take on polar combat as well. The UDTs were really naval guys and supported amphibious landings and sabotaging ships and port facilities and nearby factories and such.
Others have seen the flaw in this analogy, and mentioned in private SEAL forums, “try telling that to a WWII UDT veteran who swam ashore before the landing craft on D-Day.” The UDT’s and SEALs are essentially one and the same. It’s why the UDT is still part of the training acronym BUD/S (Basic Underwater Demolition/SEAL).
#189. To: TooConservative (#171)
The trench warfare of WW-1 is where sniping played it's biggest role.
Me too. I always thought the WW II snipers were the most interesting.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
#190. To: sneakypete, TooConservative (#182)
I can only guess it is the "video game mindset" of he younger generation,combined with the fact that snipers kill people at such a distance it doesn't seem real. Want to get conspiracy minded? Kyle was part of something called "Craft International". http://www.thecraft.com/Training.html If you want a private army of killers then people with PTSD maybe good for carrying out certain assignments? Or it could be a simple case of them trying to gain 'good publicity' over training returning vets to be mercenaries.
You also have to question taking a PTSD soldier to a firing range as a matter of personal judgment. Yeah,I had a "WTF????" moment over that one,myself.
#191. To: TooConservative, sneakypete (#188) (Edited)
I know of no SEAL vet association that rejects UDT era vets. At the time the UDTS were as good as we had for what we now imagine is a SEAL and formed the foundation for modern SEALS - An impressive accomplishment by Ventura in his pre Wrestling years regardless.
#192. To: TooConservative (#172)
There were SEAL teams as early as 1964. I know this for a fact because I went through Jump School at Ft.Benning with several of them. AFAIK,all the SEALS back then came from the UDT teams,so naturally the UDT training would be "SEAL Basic Training". The SEALS came from the Navy seeing they were going to lose some of the military budget money and clout unless they developed a ground warfare group NOT called "The US Marine Corps",so I guess they figured he easiest way to go with this would be to add a ground combat mission to the traditional UDT "water and beach" missions. Frankly,I have never understood why the SEAL teams were ever created. They don't do a single damn thing when it comes to ground combat missions that the USMC hasn't been doing for a couple of hundred years now. I can only guess that the Navy brass has always traditionally hated the USMC,and wanted to grab some of the glory for the anchor clankers. IMHO,the SEALS have no business taking on ground combat roles. They really don't have the training or the mindset for it,and most likely lose a lot of people in combat that a USMC Force Recon team wouldn't lose.
I thought Ventura was supposed to have completed the basic UDT school but left the service about the time the SEALs were created as a program.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
#193. To: Pericles (#174)
And.....?
Kyle was a high school graduate only.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
#194. To: Pericles (#176)
Is that so,scholar? Spent a lot of time in Special Operations,did ya?
Some say he’s a UDT (Underwater Demolition Team), and not a “SEAL,” but that’s bullshit.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
#195. To: sneakypete, TooConservative (#192)
I pondered that upon learning the recent scrubbed mission of a SEALs team against al-Qaeda in Yemen that was thwarted by guard dogs. Would a land based team have forgotten about the use of dogs to sniff out intruders?
IMHO,the SEALS have no business taking on ground combat roles. They really don't have the training or the mindset for it,and most likely lose a lot of people in combat that a USMC Force Recon team wouldn't lose.
#196. To: TooConservative (#180)
Me,too. Also books about submarine warfare. I have no idea why. And being slightly claustrophobic,you couldn't get me in one of those SOB's at gunpoint.
I also like sub movies.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
#197. To: sneakypete (#194)
Is that so,scholar? Spent a lot of time in Special Operations,did ya? See the link those words were posted by someone involved in such affairs.
Is that so,scholar?Some say he’s a UDT (Underwater Demolition Team), and not a “SEAL,” but that’s bullshit.
#198. To: Pericles (#191) (Edited)
True enough. But still not a SEAL. The real SEAL program was just developing from the UDTs when Ventura got out. UDT and SEAL programs both operated through the Seventies.
An impressive accomplishment by Ventura in his pre Wrestling years regardless.
#199. To: sneakypete (#196)
Me either. : )
And being slightly claustrophobic,you couldn't get me in one of those SOB's at gunpoint.
#200. To: Pericles (#190)
Ok,it's plain to see you have never been around anyone that has a genuine case of PTSD. Here is a hint. They ain't the most organized people in the world.
If you want a private army of killers then people with PTSD maybe good for carrying out certain assignments?
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
#201. To: Pericles (#195)
Well, dogs really are not that common in Muslim countries because Muslims just hate dogs and consider dog owners to be bad Muslims. So even their military and security aren't going to like using dogs the way the rest of us do. So SEALs probably haven't encountered guard dogs that often in recent missions in the Mideast. Anyway, that does occur to me as a likely explanation. Most often, the SEALs rely on stealth in their mission plans. If dogs were going to raise the alarm on them, their plan was foiled easily and they regrouped rather than stage an abortive or fruitless raid.
I pondered that upon learning the recent scrubbed mission of a SEALs team against al-Qaeda in Yemen that was thwarted by guard dogs. Would a land based team have forgotten about the use of dogs to sniff out intruders?
#202. To: Pericles (#195)
No. Face it,the SEALS are geared towards high-profile raids where they are only on the ground for a day or two at the most. Usually for only a couple of hours. IMHO,the Seal Lt in the most recent Hollywood movie about SEALS is directly responsible for the death of his team mates due to having that "Hollywood mindset". He should have either killed the 2 kids herding the goats,or just tied them to a tree and cancelled the mission and pulled his men out. He needed that "ground combat mindset" instead of the "Hollywood Raid mindset",and he didn't have it. That's what leadership is all about,and that's why they pay leaders the big bucks. You have to make the hard decisions and live with them. I know this isn't going to make me popular,but it had to be said.
I pondered that upon learning the recent scrubbed mission of a SEALs team against al-Qaeda in Yemen that was thwarted by guard dogs. Would a land based team have forgotten about the use of dogs to sniff out intruders?
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
#203. To: sneakypete (#192)
I agree. I think the Army or Marines should encompass all these activities that the SEALs are in now. I don't like it when the services try to compete in combat specialties. It ends badly and wastes a lot of money. Today you see the SEALs plucking off the top recruits across the services. They should all be Army or Marines. Personally, I'd just expand the Army Rangers and put all the SEALs under them. They could have a special program for UDT-qualified operators. And the Navy could keep their own UDT specialists. SEALs should be part of the Army special forces. Leave the Marines as a separate branch of the Navy, just out of tradition.
Frankly,I have never understood why the SEAL teams were ever created. They don't do a single damn thing when it comes to ground combat missions that the USMC hasn't been doing for a couple of hundred years now. I can only guess that the Navy brass has always traditionally hated the USMC,and wanted to grab some of the glory for the anchor clankers.
#204. To: Palmdale (#156)
Obsessed over something I have never seen, OK whatever. So how long do you think I've been posting on political blogs anyway?
“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”
#205. To: CZ82 (#204)
Two months and counting.
So how long do you think I've been posting on political blogs anyway?
#206. To: Pericles, GarySpFc (#82)
Yes bright. Someone bright or intelligent may not be well educated. Someone well educated can be unremarkable. When I went to Airborne school I had 5 SEALS in my stick (section). I learned the physical, mental and psychological toils of Buds training and scuba/dive school. A bag of rocks would die in those environments.
Fit, yes. Bright?
"Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools " (Romans 1:21-22)
#207. To: Pericles (#107)
I have been to the Russian Battle for Stalingrad Museum in Volograd just to see Vasily Zaytsev's rifle, which he supposedly used to kill 225 Germans. Kruschev created the lie, because their is no record of the German officer he was going against existing in the German Army. This is America, NOT Russia where lies are the standard. Go learn the difference.
In WW1 and WW2 artillery was used againsts snipers, etc. In fact that is still Russian doctrine. If a building has a sniper in it - blow up the building.
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
#208. To: TooConservative, GarySpFc (#110)
So the RPG guy was essentially a sniper with an RPG. Was he brave? Was he a patriot of Afghanistan and a freedom fighter? Or just a terrorist? In both cases the one shooting was defending their units. Very much so as an artillery unit providing fire support. In the military we don't put such labels of heroism by specific MOS. It's a team effort. I've seen combat support soldiers act as brave as a commando. In the case of Kyle he had two Silver stars and four or five BSMs for valor. Those are not handed out like candy and require witnesses and investigation. The Navy I admit is a bit more stingy on the above as I remember from serving attached to 2nd MARDIV during the Gulf War. So at least for the cited incidents of his valor awards, his peers and leadership sure did think he deserved the recognition.
AFAIK, they still maintain it was brought down by a RPG (rocket-propelled grenade). That meant the guy who fired it had to be close and that meant he was in a lot of danger to fire at so many SEALs like that.
"Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools " (Romans 1:21-22)
#209. To: redleghunter (#206)
Agreed. When I went to jump school, (Ft Campbell 1955) it really wasn't that bad. -- If memory serves, we had less than a 5% drop out rate.
When I went to Airborne school I had 5 SEALS in my stick (section). I learned the physical, mental and psychological toils of Buds training and scuba/dive school. A bag of rocks would die in those environments.
#210. To: Fred Mertz (#205)
Hit your head on a tomahawk again?
“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”
#211. To: TooConservative, Pericles, GarySpFc (#117)
But a military sniper is a military asset and few object to using snipers or choppers or artillery or any other means to wipe out an enemy sniper. Yes artillery is now considered precision fires. Most of our munitions are GPS or laser guided. The munitions can also be adjusted for yield. In Iraq in one city we had a sniper problem. We used a low yield 155mm round to kill the sniper on top of a building without damaging the apartments below the roof. Jihadis use civilian population centers to wage their war so we have to find the weapon with the least collateral effect. And in some cases that would be a sniper.
Certainly. I wouldn't be surprised if that still happens, especially in the Iraq occupation.
"Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools " (Romans 1:21-22)
#212. To: TooConservative (#110)
I hear ignorance shouting from the rooftops. There is a major difference between moving and still targets, and good troops keep moving to present the sniper with poor shots. Modern day snipers are hunted with a vengeance, and getting into position is a major problem for them.
As for your description of the sniper-scout, are they actually any braver than our ordinary infantry who go door-to-door in sweeps in a hostile town? I don't think so.
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
#213. To: TooConservative (#114)
Special Ops are called the "Quiet Professionals." and he broke the code. You have mistaken his silence in certain areas as lying.
You see the controversy with many SEALs saying that these SEALs writing books about the bin Laden raid are no longer welcome at SEAL reunions and hangouts. The guy who claims (disputed) that he shot bin Laden is an example. I can tell by watching his interviews that he is lying about something big but we'll probably never find out what it was.
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
#214. To: TooConservative, GarySpFc (#144)
I can understand and respect why you did. There were, however, radiological materials still at Tuwaitha before ground forces arrived. I don't remember the exact materials, but hundreds of HAZMAT 55gal barrels were found empty, and many looted and found in homes later. The site was sealed and guarded. Medical teams monitored and tested soldiers who came in contact with the site or barrels. Some in my old unit are still tracked. The leukemia occurrence increase for the civilian population near the site increased a few years later. They found that some of the looters took the barrels emptied them and stored water and milk in them.
But I turned against it when the lies were exposed by the findings at al-Tuwaitha, Saddam's nuclear reservation. The article is by a team from Texas Tech, probably not a Lefty bastion given it is located in Lubbock.
"Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools " (Romans 1:21-22)
#215. To: sneakypete (#165)
By the time of the Gulf War, valor awards required witness statements.
"Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools " (Romans 1:21-22)
#216. To: TooConservative (#203)
Today you see the SEALs plucking off the top recruits across the services. They should all be Army or Marines. Personally, I'd just expand the Army Rangers and put all the SEALs under them. They could have a special program for UDT-qualified operators. And the Navy could keep their own UDT specialists. Rangers, Special Forces and SEALS have different missions, with major differences. SEALs should be part of the Army special forces. No, no, no. Leave the Marines as a separate branch of the Navy, just out of tradition.
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
#217. To: tpaine (#209)
The SEALS were in the Army jump school at Benning with me. I did not go through SEAL training. They opined on how easy airborne school was compared with their BUDs and scuba school.
"Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools " (Romans 1:21-22)
#218. To: redleghunter (#60)
I don't think I could have done what they do, didn't/don't have the patience.
He is alone, trying to blend in with locals and then he finds his spot sets up and waits...alone.
“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”
#219. To: tpaine (#209)
The drop rate was approximately 35 to 40% AT Benning IN 1963.
Agreed. When I went to jump school, (Ft Campbell 1955) it really wasn't that bad. -- If memory serves, we had less than a 5% drop out rate.
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
#220. To: TooConservative (#203)
We did give SEALs a land mission which they hardly in the past performed. Their was some discovery learning early in Afghanistan. The author of "Not a good day to die" points this out. However the Navy pushed for a land fight. All about who gets the dough.
"Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools " (Romans 1:21-22)
#221. To: CZ82 (#204)
If you never read any of his posts, why did you bring him up? Obsessed over something I have never seen, OK whatever.
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
#222. To: Palmdale (#221)
It was from a series of conversations I've had in the past with tpaine.
“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”
#223. To: GarySpFC (#219)
Agreed. When I went to jump school, (Ft Campbell 1955) it really wasn't that bad. -- If memory serves, we had less than a 5% drop out rate. It may have been higher in our whole class. -- I went through with my advanced basic platoon, and we only had a few drop out. I was surprised how many dropped when we were on the line in Germany. Quite a few stopped after 10/15 jumps and got jobs in leg outfits.
The drop rate was approximately 35 to 40% AT Benning IN 1963.
#224. To: CZ82, misterwhite (#222)
Really? He's been unsuccessfully stalking me (among others) for the last 15+ years.
It was from a series of conversations I've had in the past with tpaine.
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
#225. To: Palmdale (#224)
So has he found Roscoe?
“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”
#226. To: GarySpFC (#213)
He already broke the SEAL code that there is no such thing as a one-man operation. He did it to grab money and fame. So exactly what is restraining him to still obey any part of it? He is lying about something big involving the bin Laden raid. And it will come out, sooner or later. Other SEALs, more respectful of the code, dispute his accounts but won't break the code. But it will come out.
Special Ops are called the "Quiet Professionals." and he broke the code. You have mistaken his silence in certain areas as lying.
#227. To: CZ82 (#225)
Not exactly. I don't live there anymore.
So has he found Roscoe?
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
#228. To: Palmdale (#224)
Really? He's been unsuccessfully stalking me (among others) for the last 15+ years. ---- Palmdale Bullshit. Misterwhite/robertpaulsen and I used to go at it quite a bit at FR, and poor roscoe defended poor paulsen with what he thought were 'snappy one liners'. --- In actuality, they were sappy. Ever since, he's been on my case with the usual crap.
CZ82 --- It was from a series of conversations I've had in the past with tpaine.
#229. To: redleghunter (#214)
Of course. The UN had put seals on them and transporting them was forbidden. Saddam was obeying the UN. Of course. They wanted the barrels to store drinking water, anticipating that the invasion would lead to water shortages, a very serious matter in a desert country. Happens especially often when you ingest contaminated food and fluids.
There were, however, radiological materials still at Tuwaitha before ground forces arrived.
I don't remember the exact materials, but hundreds of HAZMAT 55gal barrels were found empty, and many looted and found in homes later. The site was sealed and guarded. Medical teams monitored and tested soldiers who came in contact with the site or barrels.
The leukemia occurrence increase for the civilian population near the site increased a few years later.
#230. To: redleghunter (#220)
Which is why I would prefer to see SEALs under Army control. Or set up one single special forces division. But, other than the rare underwater demolition job, every mission that all these operators carry out are some variety of land mission. Not naval, not air. So they belong with the Army. This kind of interservice rivalry has always been expensive and destructive. Congress should take firm action and correct the situation, once and for all.
However the Navy pushed for a land fight. All about who gets the dough.
#231. To: TooConservative (#230)
There is as much rivalry, jealousy, envy, selfishness and clamoring for power in Congress as there is in the military.
Congress should take firm action
#232. To: Otter (#231)
You're not cheering me up any yet. : )
#233. To: Palmdale (#227)
There must be dozens of Roscoe's.
“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”
#234. To: CZ82 (#233)
Kinda like the old Kilroy bit from WW II and Korea.
There must be dozens of Roscoe's.
#235. To: Pericles (#82)
You really don't have a clue what you're discussing. SEALS and Special Forces are very different from Marines and Rangers. As but one example, the medic in these units are far better trained than registered nurses, and can even perform some surgical operations.
Fit, yes. Bright?
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
#236. To: Pericles (#84)
Ventura was never a SEAL, but was in a UDT unit.
And SEAL is nothing special. Ventura was in the same military unit before they were given the cooler and more catchy SEAL's name.
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
#237. To: Pericles (#88)
The fact that Ventura tells this story proves he lied.
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
#238. To: sneakypete (#192) (Edited)
Pete, you are aware they receive the same advanced training as SF after jump school, and that's at Bragg and SH.
IMHO,the SEALS have no business taking on ground combat roles. They really don't have the training or the mindset for it,and most likely lose a lot of people in combat that a USMC Force Recon team wouldn't lose.
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
#239. To: TooConservative (#146)
Looks like he's about to hang himself again.
“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”
#240. To: CZ82 (#239)
I have to defer to your expertise. I just don't follow the retreads and zombies and newbs very closely. People have to hang around for a while for me to notice much.
Looks like he's about to hang himself again.
#241. To: TooConservative (#226)
The "Quiet Professionals Code" is the same for SF and SEALS. BTW, He donated all monies from his book.
He already broke the SEAL code that there is no such thing as a one-man operation. He did it to grab money and fame.
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
#242. To: GarySpFC (#241)
It was an unauthorized book. His SEAL colleagues, inasmuch as they spoke, disputed his account and said he shouldn't have written it. Not one defended his book. And there are various ways to profit from something. I would have to see proof that he did not profit indirectly from the book before I believe it. Even so, he seems to have launched a very lucrative career as a speaker, trading on his reputation as bin Laden's killer. Why else would anyone want him? Fees range from $10K to $75K and up. You can book him to speak at your event here. He sure seems to be intent on cashing in on his fame. And I think it is obvious he is lying about something. Something big.
BTW, He donated all monies from his book.
#243. To: CZ82 (#233)
Okay. Which one were you talking about?
There must be dozens of Roscoe's.
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
#244. To: TooConservative (#242)
I say you're lying. "It’s a strange place I find myself these days, in my late 30s, and faced with the reality of friends, SEAL brothers, lost and gone from my life. The most recent include my friend Chris Kyle, who was killed last month, and Glen Doherty, who died six months earlier... Chris took no pleasure in taking lives as a sniper, and he doesn’t deserve the criticism that some, including Representative Ron Paul of Texas, have leveled at him. He did what his country asked of him, and did it well. His family also sacrificed greatly and deserved a moment of dignity in his death. As citizens we all share some responsibility for what this country does to defend and protect its borders. After life in the SEALs, Chris donated profits from his book, “American Sniper,” to a charity started by the mother of a fallen teammate, Marc Lee, America’s Mighty Warriors." Brandon Webb is a former Navy SEAL, author of a memoir, “The Red Circle,” and editor in chief of Sofrep (Special Operations Forces Report).His SEAL colleagues, inasmuch as they spoke, disputed his account and said he shouldn't have written it. Not one defended his book.
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
#245. To: Palmdale (#244)
God, you are such a moron. We were discussing Robert O'Neill, not Chris Kyle. So before you jump in with both feet in your mouth, maybe you should work on your reading comprehension.
I say you're lying.
Chris donated profits from his book, “American Sniper,”
#246. To: TooConservative (#245)
You always lie.His SEAL colleagues, inasmuch as they spoke, disputed his account
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
#247. To: Palmdale (#246)
After you made a false accusation due to your poor reading habits, that is quite funny. Thank you, Mr. Projection.
You always lie.
#248. To: TooConservative (#247)
You're caught lying and your defense is that you were lying about somebody else. That's pathological. "Colleagues confirm that Robert O'Neill fired shots killing Bin Laden..." But you won't retract your lie about Robert O'Neill, will ya?
After you made a false accusation due to your poor reading habits
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
#249. To: Palmdale (#248)
I wasn't lying. I was accurately conveying many news stories. You are the one desperately grasping at your own fabrications as they crumble before you. What a sad pathetic specimen you are. What else ya got, Sparky?
But you won't retract your lie about Robert O'Neill, will ya?
Did Robert O'Neill really kill bin Laden?(Opinion) - CNN.com
Ex-Navy Seals' dispute over who shot Osama Bin Laden - BBC News
Bin Laden's Shooter Goes Public, But Fellow SEALs Dispute ...
#250. To: GarySpFC (#207)
We all know the Iraq war was based on good ole American truths.
This is America, NOT Russia where lies are the standard. Go learn the difference.
#251. To: TooConservative (#203)
IMHO,the SEALS should stick to the traditional Navy UDT stuff,as well as expand to missions like seizing offshore oil rigs,ships at sea,etc,etc,etc. Nobody would be better suited for those missions than the SEALS.
I think the Army or Marines should encompass all these activities that the SEALs are in now.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
#252. To: GarySpFC (#236) (Edited)
There is no difference other than a re-branding and some land mission work. The UDT is the more impressive over the land warfare capacities.
Ventura was never a SEAL, but was in a UDT unit.
#253. To: GarySpFC (#237) (Edited)
The court verdict agreed with Ventura over that proven liar Kyle. You as a Christian (Protestant) I laugh at your defending a liar proud of inventing a lie where he gunned down people in the streets of New Orleans.
The fact that Ventura tells this story proves he lied.
#254. To: Pericles, GarySpFc (#250)
I have to admit, I did like it when Powell finally admitted all the war pretexts for invading Iraq were nothing but lies. It was the first time I had any respect for him. Colin Powell, the former US secretary of state, has said he regrets providing misleading intelligence that led the US to invade Iraq, believing it had weapons of mass destruction. Powell, the first secretary of state in the administration of George W. Bush, the former US president, which declared war on Iraq in 2003, told Al Jazeera on the 10th anniversary of the worst terror attacks on US soil that the information was a "blot on my record". "It turned out, as we discovered later, that a lot of sources that had been attested to by the intelligence community were wrong," Powell said in Washington, DC. "I understood the consequences of that failure and, as I said, I deeply regret that the information - some of the information, not all of it - was wrong," said the former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. "It has blotted my record, but - you know - there's nothing I can do to change that blot. All I can say is that I gave it the best analysis that I could." Powell, who was secretary of state from 2002 to 2005, gave an elaborate description of Iraq's weapons programme in the run-up to the war, saying "ambition and hatred" were enough to bring Iraq and al-Qaeda together and build more sophisticated bombs. "I gave that speech on a four days' notice based on an intelligence estimate that had been done months before and provided to Congress, and every word in that speech was gone over by the director of the Central intelligence Agency (CIA) and his deputy director and all experts," he said. In the United Kingdom, a traditional ally of the US which backed the military campaign, Tony Blair, who was prime minister at the time of the invasion, said Iraq had the capacity to deploy weapons of mass destruction in 45 minutes. Blair has since been criticised for allegedly exaggerating that claim and for presenting intelligence that overstated the case for going to war. But Powell said he did not exaggerate the information he presented to Congress. "There is nothing that I made up; there's nothing that I stuck in there," he said. "Some people tried to stick extra things in there that the intelligence community wouldn't verify and I said 'no'. "And so when I presented that information, it was information that the president believed in; information that my colleagues in government believed in." Powell said he "presented the best evidence that we had" and that the United Kingdom and other nations believed it. We all know the Iraq war was based on good ole American truths.
Former US secretary of state says information he provided leading to the invasion of Iraq is a "blot" on his record.
#255. To: TooConservative (#254)
I gained respect for him again. Where is the rest of the GOP to laud him?
#256. To: Pericles (#252)
Once again you demonstrate how uninformed you are. http://cursor.org/stories/seal_or_udt_2.htm http://cursor.org/stories/seal_or_udt.htm
There is no difference
#257. To: TooConservative (#203)
IMHO,the SEALS should stick to the traditional Navy UDT stuff,as well as expand to missions like seizing offshore oil rigs,ships at sea,etc,etc,etc. Nobody would be better suited for those missions than the SEALS. Today you see the SEALs plucking off the top recruits across the services. Not really. They get their fair share of the normal recruits,plus they are now getting almost all of the "Super Hero Teebee and Movie" recruits. IMHO,they are more than welcome to them. People that are predisposed to join the Army,the USMC,or the USAF,join the Army,the USMC,or the USAF anyhow,and then apply for the special operations branches. These are usually people whose family members have a history of joining those forces,and IMHO they are the most mentally stable recruits. The guys that want to join a branch of the military to be heroes in what they see as live-action video games generally ain't the kind to stick with it and be reliable. It's not unusual for them to go AWOL when the reality of their first real combat deployment looms up,and they realize it will be real bullets and real blood. BTW,this is NO reflection on the vast majority of the people who enlist in any branch of the armed forces and choose regular career fields. Those people are every bit as necessary in the defense of our nation as any SEAL,USSF,Force Recon,or Air Commando. Without them the whole system collapses and nothing works. They should all be Army or Marines. I STRONGLY disagree! Each branch of the military has their own unique "take" on the military,their own customs,and their own abilities. Just like the SEALS don't really understand ground combat and how to relate to conventional ground combat units,for the most part USSF units would have the same problems if tasked with working with the Navy on sea operations. It's foolish to put all your eggs in one basket. Personally, I'd just expand the Army Rangers and put all the SEALs under them. No way,Jose! They understand beach invasions and the needs of the Navy on a level the army never will. Leave them in the Navy where they belong and can function at a level no one else can approach. They could have a special program for UDT-qualified operators. And the Navy could keep their own UDT specialists. Fragmentation of existing forces. Unnecessary and dangerous. Adds another level of command structure and complications. Leave them alone to do the Navy stuff. SEALs should be part of the Army special forces. HELL NO! Special Forces have jobs that are unique and very important,and they just don't need that distraction. Don't forget,the primary mission of Special Forces is to train foreigners to create their own armies to fight their own wars,as well as to create a air of trust and cooperation with foreign governments. Their traditional missions are training instructors and leaders that go into combat as a part of their mission to train foreign troops how to conduct combat operations under actual combat conditions. They are NOT assault troops like Rangers or traditional army infantrymen. Leave the Marines as a separate branch of the Navy, just out of tradition. No,do it because they have a very important traditional mission,and that is securing beach heads so that more heavily armed traditional infantry and armor units can land and move inland. They are purely a ground assault component and they have to work closely with the Navy and have a understanding of how the Navy works to fullfill their role. Each branch has a specific mission they are trained,equipped,and experienced to accomplish,and each branch needs a seperate identity. Having said all this,the Joint Special Operations Command is one of the better ideas the US Military has ever came up with. It is a shared command structure,and theoretically one branch will be chosen over the others for the missions they are best suited to accomplish. Yeah,there is in-fighting amongst the brass to see who can grab the most glory (not to mention biggest slice of the defense budget),but it is nowhere near the level it would be at if they didn't work together every day.
I think the Army or Marines should encompass all these activities that the SEALs are in now.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
#258. To: TooConservative (#242)
It's wild speculation on your part that O'Neill is lying about something big, nothing more. And others spoke: "“He was still twitching and convulsing,” Matt Bissonnette, 38, said in his book, “No Easy Day: The Firsthand Account of the Mission that Killed Osama Bin Laden,” which he wrote under the name Mark Owen. “Another assaulter and I trained our lasers on his chest and fired several rounds.” Military bigs — furious over the soldiers’ breach of the SEAL Ethos, or code of silence — threatened legal action against both men, according to the special-ops Web site SOFREP, which outed O’Neill after other SEALs, angry at his disclosures, provided his identity. In a letter written after news of O’Neill’s TV appearance was announced, the commander of Naval Special Warfare Command wrote that those who violate the Ethos “are neither teammates in good standing, nor teammates who represent Naval Special Warfare.
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
#259. To: redleghunter (#208)
The Navy tends to be stingy with valor awards when it comes to Marines,but not when it comes to Naval officers. Or even petty officers.
In the case of Kyle he had two Silver stars and four or five BSMs for valor. Those are not handed out like candy and require witnesses and investigation. The Navy I admit is a bit more stingy on the above as I remember from serving attached to 2nd MARDIV during the Gulf War.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
#260. To: tpaine (#209)
When I went through jump school at Benning in the summer of 64,we started out with a class of 525 students,and ended up with a graduating class of 187 three weeks later.
When I went to jump school, (Ft Campbell 1955) it really wasn't that bad. -- If memory serves, we had less than a 5% drop out rate.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
#261. To: sneakypete (#257)
Excellent post!
Each branch has a specific mission they are trained,equipped,and experienced to accomplish,and each branch needs a seperate identity.
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
#262. To: redleghunter (#211)
I'll be damned! In VN recon teams hated calling in the 155's and the 175's for what was laughingly called "close combat support" because "close" was a VERY relative term back then. We didn't call it in unless we really,really needed it because we were being over ran. There could be more than 50 meters variation from shot to shot as the barrels heated up. Good to see they have solved THAT problem!
In Iraq in one city we had a sniper problem. We used a low yield 155mm round to kill the sniper on top of a building without damaging the apartments below the roof.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
#263. To: redleghunter (#215)
AFAIK,they always required more than one witness in the US Army and the USMC.
By the time of the Gulf War, valor awards required witness statements.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
#264. To: TooConservative (#230)
NO,NO,NO,A THOUSAND TIMES NO! Or set up one single special forces division. 10 THOUSAND TIMES NO!
Which is why I would prefer to see SEALs under Army control.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
#265. To: GarySpFC (#238)
No,I wasn't aware of that. It still does nothing to change their "Raid" mindset when it comes to ground combat. Which,IMHO,is what lead to the "Last Man Standing" situation the book and movie came from,and the deaths of almost everyone in that SEAL team. Most of us here are Americans,and we grew up with the whole idea of "fair play". That shit doesn't flush in combat. What does is completing the mission and living to brag about it while bringing your team out with you.
Pete, you are aware they receive the same advanced training as SF after jump school, and that's at Bragg and SH.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
#266. To: TooConservative, Redleghunter (#254)
I was against Bush's nation building. It was wrong, wrong, wrong. That said, Saddam did have WMD, which were sent by a Russian escorted convey to Syria. SF confirmed everything, but Bush failed to take action. Powell failed to tell the truth.
have to admit, I did like it when Powell finally admitted all the war pretexts for invading Iraq were nothing but lies. It was the first time I had any respect for him.
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
#267. To: TooConservative (#242)
He didn't kill bin Laden. A bin Laden double was who was killed. That's why the autopsy at sea and the quick burial at sea. I'm guessing there were no organs or blood samples saved that DNA can be taken from,either. bin Laden died in a mountain cave in the Tora Bora mountains of Afghanisan and was buried alive years earlier. He was "kept alive" by both the west and the Muslims for propaganda and political reasons. No,I don't have any proof at all that is what happened. I seriously doubt anyone has any proof because the only way to provide proof would be to dig out the mountain caves that were hit with blockbuster bombs,and that just ain't never going to happen.
And I think it is obvious he is lying about something. Something big.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
#268. To: sneakypete (#260)
When I went to jump school, (Ft Campbell 1955) it really wasn't that bad. -- If memory serves, we had less than a 5% drop out rate in our advanced basic platoon. The overall class rate may have been higher. Wow, big class. What, - did a bunch of draftees try jump school just for laughs?
When I went through jump school at Benning in the summer of 64,we started out with a class of 525 students,and ended up with a graduating class of 187 three weeks later.
#269. To: tpaine (#268)
No,but the nation was gearing up for war in VN in 1964,and patriotism was a big thing back then. It should surprise no one that probably 90 percent of the jump school volunteers were privates between 17 and 20 years of age.
Wow, big class. What, - did a bunch of draftees try jump school just for laughs?
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
#270. To: sneakypete (#265)
Good point!
still does nothing to change their "Raid" mindset when it comes to ground combat. Which,IMHO,is what lead to the "Last Man Standing" situation the book and movie came from,and the deaths of almost everyone in that SEAL team.
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
#271. To: All (#0)
On Monday, Americans learned that the box office premiere of American Sniper, a movie about the life of Navy SEAL Chris Kyle, shattered all box office records bringing in $90.2 million. By the end of the holiday weekend, the movie was expected to have a grand total of $105 million. Progressive filmmaker Michael Moore used this moment as a time to go on the attack against snipers with his tweet calling them cowards. This was seen as not only an insult to the legacy of Navy SEAL Chris Kyle, credited with being the deadliest sniper in U.S. military history, but also an insult to all American military snipers and all who put on the uniform in service to our country. Green Beret sniper Bryan Sikes took some time to pen a letter to Moore that absolutely destroyed him in an incredibly hilarious and fabulous way. Mr. Moore- Good afternoon there sweetheart, I hope this finds you alive and well. You can thank our men and women of the armed forces for that, by the way, and that also includes us cowardly snipers. It seems you’ve found time between licking the jelly off your fingers and releasing your grasp of a bear claw to tweet some junk about snipers being cowards. My buddies and I got a good laugh over the tweet, so I thank you. For a guy worth $50 million dollars, you sure have quite a bit to bitch and cry about. I guess like a moth to flame, you too gravitate towards things that are popular and in the moment — in this case it’s snipers. Too bad for you that your attempt at being relevant via your 70+ year old family experience has failed. It has only made you look dumber than a bag of hammers. Next time you should try something more original than going after snipers for one reason or another…that was so last month. It’s typical of “men” like you to criticize the intestinal fortitude, focus, discipline and patriotism of a sniper. It must stem from an inferiority complex or something. But hey, it’s okay cupcake. We snipers are thick skinned and the efforts of world class turds such as yourself to portray us in a negative light only makes us laugh. If you and I were in the same room, I’d throw you a smile and gently pat you on the head knowing you’re nothing more than a mouth breathing, Crisco sweating waste of space not even worthy of being in the presence of a sniper. It’s almost funny how people like you preach things like ‘acceptance’ and ‘not passing judgement’ or ‘labeling people’, but then are the first to do so when a person is in some way dissimilar from you. So tenderfoot, I leave you with this final thought: what if you found yourself in some sort of hostage situation where you were held at knife-point by some crazed person and they were dead set on making an example of you by bleeding you out on Hollywood Blvd in front of the world, and the only way out was with the precision aimed fire of a sniper? Would you want that coward to take the shot? Because knowing how you feel about snipers such as myself and your hatred of firearms, I’d probably drop the mag, roll the bolt and go get a Jack & Coke before helping you out. Very Respectfully, Sikes Sikes, who is currently a Pro-Am shooter for GA precision Team Bushnell, undoubtedly has many people who can get behind these words and appreciate him putting Michael Moore in his place in such an epic way.
#272. To: sneakypete (#265)
https://www.google.com/search? q=seal%20advanced%20training%20at%20ft%20bragg&newwindow=1&gws_rd=ssl
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
#273. To: GarySpFC (#272)
Bad link.
https://www.google.com/search? q=seal%20advanced%20training%20at%20ft%20bragg&newwindow=1&gws_rd=ssl
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
#274. To: GarySpFC, TooConservative, Redleghunter (#266)
That never happened.
That said, Saddam did have WMD, which were sent by a Russian escorted convey to Syria. SF confirmed everything, but Bush failed to take action. Powell failed to tell the truth.
#275. To: Pericles (#274)
You were there as an observer?
That never happened.
#276. To: Otter (#275)
You were there as an observer? Bush himself stated there were no WMD - not that there were and moved to Syria. I also remember the whackado theory that Saddam had a ship roaming the oceans with the WMD hidden on them.
That never happened.
#277. To: Pericles (#276)
So now you believe what Bush claimed once? Why? That memory must have been your imagination. I never heard anything resembling that.
#278. To: TooConservative (#249)
No, that's another lie. You originally lied, "His SEAL colleagues, inasmuch as they spoke, disputed his account..." Your new links don't say that. In fact, there were colleagues who confirmed that Robert O'Neill fired the shots killing Bin Laden, as I proved. You lied. You're trying to cover that with new lies. I now know you for exactly what you are. You do too.
I was accurately conveying many news stories.
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
#279. To: Otter (#277)
Because he had to own up to his mistake. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WMD_conjecture_in_the_aftermath_of_the_2003_inv asion_of_Iraq#Indian_Ocean In 2003, the Jerusalem Post reported that Iraq's WMD might be found on cargo ships that were cruising aimlessly around the Indian Ocean.[52] http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-71893253.html Iraqi WMD may be at sea Headline: Iraqi WMD may be at sea Byline: DOUGLAS DAVIS Edition; Daily Section: News Page: 06 Thursday, February 20, 2003 -- LONDON - Three giant cargo ships that have been cruising in the Indian Ocean since last November have alarmed intelligence agencies which suspect they are carrying Iraqi weapons of mass destruction, according to a report published here on Wednesday. The ships, which are being monitored by United States and British intelligence services, were chartered by a shipping agent based in Egypt and are sailing under the flags of three different countries. All three have maintained radio silence since they left port and the captains have refused to provide information on their cargoes or their destinations, all of which contravene international maritime laws. …
So now you believe what Bush claimed once? Why?
#280. To: Otter (#277)
ByDAVID HANCOCKAPSeptember 16, 2004, 9:20 PM No Basis For WMD Smuggling Claims As the hunt for weapons of mass destruction dragged on unsuccessfully in Iraq, top Bush administration officials speculated publicly that the banned armaments may have been smuggled out of the country before the war started. Whether Saddam Hussein moved the WMD — deadly chemical, biological or radiological arms — is one of the unresolved issues that the final U.S. intelligence report on Iraq's programs is expected to address next month. But intelligence and congressional officials say they have not seen any information — never "a piece," said one — indicating that WMD or significant amounts of components and equipment were transferred from Iraq to neighboring Syria, Jordan or elsewhere. The administration acknowledged last week that the search for banned weapons is largely over. The Iraq Survey Group's chief, Charles Duelfer, is expected to submit the final installments of his report in February. A small number of the organization's experts will remain on the job in case new intelligence on Iraqi WMD is unearthed. But the officials familiar with the search say U.S. authorities have found no evidence that former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein transferred WMD or related equipment out of Iraq. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/no-basis-for-wmd-smuggling-claims/
#281. To: Pericles (#279)
So is that true also?
In 2003, the Jerusalem Post reported that Iraq's WMD might be found on cargo ships
#282. To: Otter (#281) (Edited)
So is that true also? What is clear is that those who supported the Iraq war were doing all they could to come up with excuses about why they could not find WMD so the rube base that supported George Bush would not turn on him until the Bush Admin had to admit there were not any to congress. Why are you still clinging on to trying to justify the WMD excuse for the Iraq war? Pathetic.
In 2003, the Jerusalem Post reported that Iraq's WMD might be found on cargo ships
#283. To: Pericles (#280)
http://pjmedia.com/blog/satellite-photos-support-testimony-that-iraqi-wmd-went-to-syria/
#284. To: Pericles (#282)
Your spin certainly is.
Pathetic.
#285. To: Pericles (#274) (Edited)
Okay Mr. Interrnet Warrior, Apparently you did not see the post Redleghunter made. Also, I have been associated with the SF community for over 50 years as active, reserve, and association member. Don't you think I might have slightly more information than you? Naturally, Bush would deny there were WMD. Redleghunter. "I personally know two senior officers watching a SF drone and satellite feed from ARCENT HQs a few weeks before OIF kicked off. The vehicles and payload left no room for interpretation from their observations and of the A Team with eyes on. However requests to NCA to do something to halt and exploit the convoy were denied.That never happened.
So yes, GWB is at fault for not snagging the smoking gun and possibly avoiding a protracted war."
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
#286. To: GarySpFC (#266)
That said, Saddam did have WMD, which were sent by a Russian escorted convey to Syria. I agree. Saddam used them against Iran. It's a tough neighborhood, Reagan knew he had them and used, but what he saw was a useful SOB. Good realpolitik in action, then the Bush clowns went to war over some stupid line on a map the British drew after the first world war. To rescue a monarchy that embargoed oil to America in 1973. I'm not sure if these are the same WMD that Assad was supposed to have used against Al Qaeda's allies in Syria. If he did, he is awesome. We have a guy who used WMD against Al Qaeda/ISIS and McCain/Obama have to find sort of problem with it.
I was against Bush's nation building. It was wrong, wrong, wrong.
#287. To: Pericles (#274) (Edited)
Redirection of WMD Scientists in Iraq and Libya: A Status Report By Michael Roston In the wake of the defeat of Saddam Hussein in Iraq and the renunciation by Libya of its weapon of mass destruction (WMD) programs, the United States has begun to expand the scope of its nonproliferation activities to prevent the migration of former WMD scientists and workers from these countries to other dangerous nations or organizations. The excess scientists, technicians, and engineers from the two states could pose a “brain drain” proliferation threat because of their considerable expertise in nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons. President Bush underscored the importance of containing WMD expertise from Libya and Iraq in his address before the National Defense University on February 11, 2004.1 There is far more to this article, but it makes my point that Iraq did have WMD.
The U.S. has been engaged in brain drain proliferation prevention in Russia and the former Soviet states for over a decade. This experience has underscored the difficulty of the mission of redirecting weapons scientists. The unstable situation in Iraq, in particular, perhaps will make this undertaking even more challenging in that nation. But, accomplishing the administration’s objectives is very important for U.S. national security.
Over the past few months, the administration has begun to roll out a number of new programs designed to redirect weapons scientists in both Iraq and Libya into peaceful employment. The major programs are being created by the Department of State (DOS) and the Department of Energy (DOE). While these programs are just getting underway, and their final shape and direction have not yet completely emerged, analysis of them based on public information and official input indicates a need for caution and clarity. In particular there is a need for a clear understanding of the number and type of scientists the programs are targeting, the incorporation into the process of the important lessons learned from the Russia and FSU experience, and the need to ensure that the multiple programs being developed and funded by different agencies are complementary and not redundant.
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
#288. To: nativist nationalist, GarySpFC (#286) (Edited)
Syria has had its own chemical weapons program for decades. Chemical war is a 100 year old technology - I don't get why people think it is something cutting edge in warfare.
I'm not sure if these are the same WMD that Assad was supposed to have used against Al Qaeda's allies in Syria. If he did, he is awesome. We have a guy who used WMD against Al Qaeda/ISIS and McCain/Obama have to find sort of problem with it.
#289. To: GarySpFC (#287) (Edited)
A report written in 2004 - well past its sell date using debunked info. The pathetic people like you who supported the Iraq war over WMD have blood on their hands. May Jesus consign you soul to burn in the afterlife.
#290. To: GarySpFC (#285)
Do the Russians now consider you a spy - especially since you claim to visit Russia a lot back in the Yeltsin days under the guise of religious missions?
Apparently you did not see the post Redleghunter made. Also, I have been associated with the SF community for over 50 years as active, reserve, and association member. Don't you think I might have slightly more information than you? Naturally, Bush would deny there were WMD.
#291. To: TooConservative, GarySpFc (#230)
All SF from each service are under USSOCOM a joint command. SEALS are best used for deep blue, littoral and coastal special operations. Not the mountains of Afghanistan. There are great purposes for them. Best they all stay under the joint command and not one service. We don't fight that way. We fight by geographical combatant commanders and the service chiefs are force providers through MACOMS. SOCOM operates in each geographical COCOM. After Anaconda the lines of operation were made clear that SOCOM elements in a COCOM report to that 4 star.
"Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools " (Romans 1:21-22)
#292. To: sneakypete (#262)
Yes even when I was a 2LT we still learned the Vietnam style final protective fire FPF technique.
"Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools " (Romans 1:21-22)
#293. To: Pericles (#289)
The report refers to nuclear WMD development in Iraq years prior to the invasion, which clearly proves Saddam was developing them.
A report written in 2004 - well past its sell date using debunked info. The pathetic people like you who supported the Iraq war over WMD have blood on their hands. May Jesus consign you soul to burn in the afterlife.
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
#294. To: Otter (#275)
There were those human shields Saddam had back then: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shield_action_to_Iraq Wonder what happened to them.
You were there as an observer?
"Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools " (Romans 1:21-22)
#295. To: Pericles (#290)
You are obviously confused. Yeltsin left office in 1999, and my first vist to Russia was in 2000.
Do the Russians now consider you a spy - especially since you claim to visit Russia a lot back in the Yeltsin days under the guise of religious missions?
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
#296. To: GarySpFC (#285) (Edited)
Redleghunter. "I personally know two senior officers watching a SF drone and satellite feed from ARCENT HQs a few weeks before OIF kicked off. The vehicles and payload left no room for interpretation from their observations and of the A Team with eyes on. However requests to NCA to do something to halt and exploit the convoy were denied. So yes, GWB is at fault for not snagging the smoking gun and possibly avoiding a protracted war." And the question still dangles out there...Why? Why after all that effort to get teams in there the stand down order given? You just don't send in your best SF teams behind enemy lines to collect on nothing.
Apparently you did not see the post Redleghunter made. Also, I have been associated with the SF community for over 50 years as active, reserve, and association member. Don't you think I might have slightly more information than you? Naturally, Bush would deny there were WMD.
"Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools " (Romans 1:21-22)
#297. To: GarySpFC (#293)
at the time of the invasion the WMD UN inspectors said there was no longer any WMD program in operation.
The report refers to nuclear WMD development in Iraq years prior to the invasion, which clearly proves Saddam was developing them.
#298. To: redleghunter (#296)
I believe Bush was afraid of a conflict with the Russians.
Why after all that effort to get teams in there the stand down order given?
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
#299. To: GarySpFC (#298)
The Russian twist I have to admit is new to me. I did know Russian operatives out of their embassy in Baghdad were sharing some technology to Saddam to combat our bombers.
"Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools " (Romans 1:21-22)
#300. To: Pericles (#297)
There are always some who because of their worldview will blind themselves to reality.
at the time of the invasion the WMD UN inspectors said there was no longer any WMD program in operation.
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
#301. To: redleghunter (#299)
The convoy was lead by the Russians Whether or not sensitive weapons technology was moved to Syria is a hotly disputed question in the intelligence community. James Clapper, now the Director of National Intelligence and formerly the director of the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency, said in 2003 that he believed materials had been moved out of Iraq in the months before the war and cited satellite imagery.The Russian twist I have to admit is new to me. I did know Russian operatives out of their embassy in Baghdad were sharing some technology to Saddam to combat our bombers.
If the Bashar al-Assad regime falls, and should the securing of the chemical and biological stockpiles of Syria be necessary, what would be the effect if some of those materials and munitions bear Iraqi markings?
Former Iraqi General Sada asserted that Saddam’s chemical stockpile was lifted, in his book “Saddam’s Secrets” and summarized by Investor’s Business Daily:
As Sada told the New York Sun, two Iraqi Airways Boeings were converted to cargo planes by removing the seats, and special Republican Guard units loaded the planes with chemical weapons materials.
There were 56 flights disguised as a relief effort after a 2002 Syrian dam collapse. The IBD article also mentions Israeli General Yaalon’s assertions, and those of John Shaw regarding Russian assistance in the form of former KGB General Primakov:
There were also truck convoys into Syria. Sada’s comments came more than a month after Israel’s top general during Operation Iraqi Freedom, Moshe Yaalon, told the Sun that Saddam “transferred the chemical agents from Iraq to Syria.”
Both Israeli and U.S. intelligence observed large truck convoys leaving Iraq and entering Syria in the weeks and months before Operation Iraqi Freedom, John Shaw, former deputy undersecretary of defense for international technology security, told a private conference of former weapons inspectors and intelligence experts held in Arlington, Va., in 2006.
According to Shaw, ex-Russian intelligence chief Yevgeni Primakov, a KGB general with long- standing ties to Saddam, went to Iraq in December 2002 and stayed until just before the U.S.-led invasion in March 2003.
Anticipating the invasion, his job was to supervise the removal of such weapons and erase as much evidence of Russian involvement as possible.
An interesting statement from Brian Sayers, the director of government relations for the Syria Support Group:
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
#302. To: GarySpFC (#301)
pjmedia.com/blog/satellit...to-syria/?singlepage=true
#303. To: GarySpFC (#301)
Not.
Whether or not sensitive weapons technology was moved to Syria is a hotly disputed question in the intelligence community.
#304. To: Otter (#302)
FOX trumped up news guest. PJ Media LOL!
Ryan Mauro is the national security analyst of RadicalIslam.org, the founder of WorldThreats.com and a frequent guest on Fox News Channel.
#305. To: Pericles (#304)
You're chatting with yukon. Just thought you should know.
#306. To: Pericles (#304)
What isn't true?
FOX trumped up news guest. PJ Media LOL!
#307. To: Fred Mertz (#305)
Gross.
You're chatting with yukon. Just thought you should know.
#308. To: GarySpFC (#301) (Edited)
Why can't you admit what Bush admitted? That Iraq had no active WMD program that justified an invasion and occupation? - what guilt do you feel inside you? Ashamed you were fooled? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3M-ClS5uwNo FLASHBACK: Bush admits Iraq had no WMDs & had nothing to do with 9/11 (actually he is all over the place in trying to rationalize a reason).
#309. To: GarySpFC (#266)
Skipping past any merits to your assertion, can you just explain why Bush/Cheney/Rice/Powell would take such a black eye in the historical record and with their public reputations by suppressing that Saddam had major WMD? It sounds like some variety of magical thinking to me.
That said, Saddam did have WMD, which were sent by a Russian escorted convey to Syria. SF confirmed everything, but Bush failed to take action. Powell failed to tell the truth.
#310. To: sneakypete (#267)
I'm more inclined to think they didn't kill him but captured him and are still pumping him for info in some hellhole CIA lab hosted by our more loathsome allies like Poland. But Bammy is so opposed to capture that they may have just killed him deliberately and dumped the body as they said. Obama is quite the ideologue on this stuff, full of not-on-my-watch indignation and self-righteousness.
He didn't kill bin Laden. A bin Laden double was who was killed. That's why the autopsy at sea and the quick burial at sea. I'm guessing there were no organs or blood samples saved that DNA can be taken from,either.
#311. To: Pericles, GarySpFc (#279)
Closer to tramp freighters than "giant cargo ships". Another embarrassingly stupid chapter of the Saddam/WMD fiasco and the tragedy of Iraq's destruction for the sake of Bush's and Cheney's lies and their grossly uninformed actions that have destabilized the entire region. Remember the personal parachute kits sold to people working in skyscrapers? You suppose they all got sold off on eBay or are they in some office manager's closet collecting dust now. How about the guy outside NYC who sealed his entire house in a giant bag made of plastic sheeting and duct tape? That was during the Great Duct Tape Panic. And who can forget Saddam's Model Airplanes Carrying Anthrax And Nerve Agents? He was going to fly these tiny planes under GPS/computer navigation to America to hit us with anthrax and nerve gas supposedly. When his drone facility was captured, it was revealed the Iraqis couldn't master getting one to fly for 400 miles, by far their best effort prior to us shutting down the mini-drone program. A lot of people don't seem to recall just how many lies were peddled to the public and that it could not possibly have been an error or excesses of mobilization. Or anything other than a deliberate effort to stampede the American public into invading Iraq which destabilized the entire Mideast with the results we see today.
06 Thursday, February 20, 2003 -- LONDON - Three giant cargo ships that have been cruising in the Indian Ocean since last November have alarmed intelligence agencies which suspect they are carrying Iraqi weapons of mass destruction, according to a report published here on Wednesday.
#312. To: TooConservative (#240)
Expert? LOL. It's just called a hunch. He's as obvious as a $3 bill.
“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”
#313. To: CZ82 (#312)
I have to be hit over the head with a LOLAYDA before I can get a clue. : )
He's as obvious as a $3 bill.
#314. To: redleghunter (#296)
Because short wars result in a quick loss of public political support when they end,and because short wars result in the loss of union jobs in defense industries,and a loss of dividends for stock holders. You didn't REALLY think the prime reason we supply every country in the world that wants them with military supplies had anything to do with strategic partnerships,did you?
And the question still dangles out there...Why?
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
#315. To: TooConservative (#310)
I doubt any of us will live long enough to know for sure.
I'm more inclined to think they didn't kill him but captured him and are still pumping him for info
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
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