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Title: 'American Sniper': Prominent Libertarian Claims There Is No Difference Between Chris Kyle and Mass Murderer Adam Lanza
Source:
http://www.hngn.com/
URL Source: http://www.hngn.com/articles/65352/ ... ce-between-chris-kyle-mass.htm
Published: Jan 31, 2015
Author: ida Ahmed
Post Date: 2015-01-31 15:56:37 by Gatlin
Keywords: None
Views: 80486
Comments: 315
A prominent libertarian activist has made controversial comparisons between the late "American Sniper" protagonist Navy SEAL Chris Kyle and mass murderer Adam Lanza, who killed 28 people in a 2012 shooting spree. Lanza isn't much different from Kyle, a Navy SEAL sniper who killed 160 people during multiple combat tours in Iraq, Sheldon Richman, vice president of the Future of Freedom Foundation, said on Wednesday. Two years ago, Lanza shot his mother to death, then proceeded to a nearby Sandy Hook Elementary School and killed 20 first-graders and six staffers before committing suicide. "Excuse me, but I have trouble seeing an essential difference between what Kyle did in Iraq and what Adam Lanza did at Sandy Hook Elementary School. It certainly was not heroism," Richman wrote in an op-ed published on the Future of Freedom Foundation website and reprinted by Reason.com. "Despite what some people think, hero is not a synonym for competent government-hired killer," he added. Speaking about the widely debated Clint Eastwood's movie, Richman slammed Kyle's actions, Breitbart reported. "Let's recall some facts, which perhaps Eastwood thought were too obvious to need mention: Kyle was part of an invasion force: Americans went to Iraq. Iraq did not invade America or attack Americans. Dictator Saddam Hussein never even threatened to attack Americans," he continued. "Contrary to what the George W. Bush administration suggested, Iraq had nothing to do with the attacks on Sept. 11, 2001. Before Americans invaded Iraq, Al Qaeda was not there. Nor was it in Syria, Yemen, and Libya." "Wars of aggression, let's remember, are illegal under international law. Nazis were executed at Nuremberg for waging wars of aggression." "The only reason Kyle went to Iraq was that Bush/Cheney & Co. launched a war of aggression against the Iraqi people," he wrote. The deceased sniper cannot be deemed a hero because the American military personnel's lives that he was protecting were the aggressors themselves, according to Richman, Newsmax reported. "What American lives? The lives of American military personnel who invaded another people's country, one that was no threat to them or their fellow Americans back home." If "an invader kills someone who is trying to resist the invasion, that does not count as heroic self-defense; the invader is the aggressor. If anyone's the hero, it's the latter," he wrote. The people who Kyle killed on the battlefield only threatened Americans because "American forces waged an unprovoked war against them," he added. "No Iraqi asked to be killed by Kyle, but it sure looks as though Kyle was asking to be killed by an Iraqi. [Instead, another vet did the job.
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#184. To: sneakypete, Pericles (#179)
Hey, take it easy on Pericles! He's typing on a smartphone.
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
The non-governmental "UDT-SEAL Association"? They are not capable of assessing who is a SEAL or not? I guess you don't like the private sector after all.
Suddenly they aren't quite so interested in Kyle. Good for them! It speaks highly for them that they are able to use facts as tools to change their opinions.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
UDT, not SEAL. Or are you pretending the UDT-SEAL Association pronounced the wrassler an honorary SEAL or something?
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
He's entitled to his opinion but the SEAL program became much more extensive in land warfare during the Vietnam era as Ventura was getting out of the service. Fast forward to modern times and SEALs are doing all kinds of stuff completely outside any naval context, going well beyond even what the Marines do. Or, to put it briefly, I'll agree that UDTs are the same as SEALs when you tell me how many campaigns deep in the Mideast deserts or African deserts were fought by UDTs in WW II. Because we know the SEALs operate in jungles, mountains and deserts and are probably ready to take on polar combat as well. The UDTs were really naval guys and supported amphibious landings and sabotaging ships and port facilities and nearby factories and such.
The trench warfare of WW-1 is where sniping played it's biggest role.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
I can only guess it is the "video game mindset" of he younger generation,combined with the fact that snipers kill people at such a distance it doesn't seem real. Want to get conspiracy minded? Kyle was part of something called "Craft International". http://www.thecraft.com/Training.html If you want a private army of killers then people with PTSD maybe good for carrying out certain assignments? Or it could be a simple case of them trying to gain 'good publicity' over training returning vets to be mercenaries.
I know of no SEAL vet association that rejects UDT era vets. At the time the UDTS were as good as we had for what we now imagine is a SEAL and formed the foundation for modern SEALS - An impressive accomplishment by Ventura in his pre Wrestling years regardless.
There were SEAL teams as early as 1964. I know this for a fact because I went through Jump School at Ft.Benning with several of them. AFAIK,all the SEALS back then came from the UDT teams,so naturally the UDT training would be "SEAL Basic Training". The SEALS came from the Navy seeing they were going to lose some of the military budget money and clout unless they developed a ground warfare group NOT called "The US Marine Corps",so I guess they figured he easiest way to go with this would be to add a ground combat mission to the traditional UDT "water and beach" missions. Frankly,I have never understood why the SEAL teams were ever created. They don't do a single damn thing when it comes to ground combat missions that the USMC hasn't been doing for a couple of hundred years now. I can only guess that the Navy brass has always traditionally hated the USMC,and wanted to grab some of the glory for the anchor clankers. IMHO,the SEALS have no business taking on ground combat roles. They really don't have the training or the mindset for it,and most likely lose a lot of people in combat that a USMC Force Recon team wouldn't lose.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
And.....?
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
Is that so,scholar? Spent a lot of time in Special Operations,did ya?
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
I pondered that upon learning the recent scrubbed mission of a SEALs team against al-Qaeda in Yemen that was thwarted by guard dogs. Would a land based team have forgotten about the use of dogs to sniff out intruders?
Me,too. Also books about submarine warfare. I have no idea why. And being slightly claustrophobic,you couldn't get me in one of those SOB's at gunpoint.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
Is that so,scholar? Spent a lot of time in Special Operations,did ya? See the link those words were posted by someone involved in such affairs.
True enough. But still not a SEAL. The real SEAL program was just developing from the UDTs when Ventura got out. UDT and SEAL programs both operated through the Seventies.
Me either. : )
Ok,it's plain to see you have never been around anyone that has a genuine case of PTSD. Here is a hint. They ain't the most organized people in the world.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
Well, dogs really are not that common in Muslim countries because Muslims just hate dogs and consider dog owners to be bad Muslims. So even their military and security aren't going to like using dogs the way the rest of us do. So SEALs probably haven't encountered guard dogs that often in recent missions in the Mideast. Anyway, that does occur to me as a likely explanation. Most often, the SEALs rely on stealth in their mission plans. If dogs were going to raise the alarm on them, their plan was foiled easily and they regrouped rather than stage an abortive or fruitless raid.
No. Face it,the SEALS are geared towards high-profile raids where they are only on the ground for a day or two at the most. Usually for only a couple of hours. IMHO,the Seal Lt in the most recent Hollywood movie about SEALS is directly responsible for the death of his team mates due to having that "Hollywood mindset". He should have either killed the 2 kids herding the goats,or just tied them to a tree and cancelled the mission and pulled his men out. He needed that "ground combat mindset" instead of the "Hollywood Raid mindset",and he didn't have it. That's what leadership is all about,and that's why they pay leaders the big bucks. You have to make the hard decisions and live with them. I know this isn't going to make me popular,but it had to be said.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
I agree. I think the Army or Marines should encompass all these activities that the SEALs are in now. I don't like it when the services try to compete in combat specialties. It ends badly and wastes a lot of money. Today you see the SEALs plucking off the top recruits across the services. They should all be Army or Marines. Personally, I'd just expand the Army Rangers and put all the SEALs under them. They could have a special program for UDT-qualified operators. And the Navy could keep their own UDT specialists. SEALs should be part of the Army special forces. Leave the Marines as a separate branch of the Navy, just out of tradition.
Obsessed over something I have never seen, OK whatever. So how long do you think I've been posting on political blogs anyway?
“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”
Two months and counting.
Yes bright. Someone bright or intelligent may not be well educated. Someone well educated can be unremarkable. When I went to Airborne school I had 5 SEALS in my stick (section). I learned the physical, mental and psychological toils of Buds training and scuba/dive school. A bag of rocks would die in those environments.
"Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools " (Romans 1:21-22)
I have been to the Russian Battle for Stalingrad Museum in Volograd just to see Vasily Zaytsev's rifle, which he supposedly used to kill 225 Germans. Kruschev created the lie, because their is no record of the German officer he was going against existing in the German Army. This is America, NOT Russia where lies are the standard. Go learn the difference.
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
So the RPG guy was essentially a sniper with an RPG. Was he brave? Was he a patriot of Afghanistan and a freedom fighter? Or just a terrorist? In both cases the one shooting was defending their units. Very much so as an artillery unit providing fire support. In the military we don't put such labels of heroism by specific MOS. It's a team effort. I've seen combat support soldiers act as brave as a commando. In the case of Kyle he had two Silver stars and four or five BSMs for valor. Those are not handed out like candy and require witnesses and investigation. The Navy I admit is a bit more stingy on the above as I remember from serving attached to 2nd MARDIV during the Gulf War. So at least for the cited incidents of his valor awards, his peers and leadership sure did think he deserved the recognition.
"Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools " (Romans 1:21-22)
Agreed. When I went to jump school, (Ft Campbell 1955) it really wasn't that bad. -- If memory serves, we had less than a 5% drop out rate.
Hit your head on a tomahawk again?
“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”
But a military sniper is a military asset and few object to using snipers or choppers or artillery or any other means to wipe out an enemy sniper. Yes artillery is now considered precision fires. Most of our munitions are GPS or laser guided. The munitions can also be adjusted for yield. In Iraq in one city we had a sniper problem. We used a low yield 155mm round to kill the sniper on top of a building without damaging the apartments below the roof. Jihadis use civilian population centers to wage their war so we have to find the weapon with the least collateral effect. And in some cases that would be a sniper.
"Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools " (Romans 1:21-22)
I hear ignorance shouting from the rooftops. There is a major difference between moving and still targets, and good troops keep moving to present the sniper with poor shots. Modern day snipers are hunted with a vengeance, and getting into position is a major problem for them.
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
Special Ops are called the "Quiet Professionals." and he broke the code. You have mistaken his silence in certain areas as lying.
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
I can understand and respect why you did. There were, however, radiological materials still at Tuwaitha before ground forces arrived. I don't remember the exact materials, but hundreds of HAZMAT 55gal barrels were found empty, and many looted and found in homes later. The site was sealed and guarded. Medical teams monitored and tested soldiers who came in contact with the site or barrels. Some in my old unit are still tracked. The leukemia occurrence increase for the civilian population near the site increased a few years later. They found that some of the looters took the barrels emptied them and stored water and milk in them.
"Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools " (Romans 1:21-22)
By the time of the Gulf War, valor awards required witness statements.
"Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools " (Romans 1:21-22)
Today you see the SEALs plucking off the top recruits across the services. They should all be Army or Marines. Personally, I'd just expand the Army Rangers and put all the SEALs under them. They could have a special program for UDT-qualified operators. And the Navy could keep their own UDT specialists. Rangers, Special Forces and SEALS have different missions, with major differences. SEALs should be part of the Army special forces. No, no, no. Leave the Marines as a separate branch of the Navy, just out of tradition.
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
The SEALS were in the Army jump school at Benning with me. I did not go through SEAL training. They opined on how easy airborne school was compared with their BUDs and scuba school.
"Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools " (Romans 1:21-22)
I don't think I could have done what they do, didn't/don't have the patience.
“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”
The drop rate was approximately 35 to 40% AT Benning IN 1963.
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
We did give SEALs a land mission which they hardly in the past performed. Their was some discovery learning early in Afghanistan. The author of "Not a good day to die" points this out. However the Navy pushed for a land fight. All about who gets the dough.
"Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools " (Romans 1:21-22)
If you never read any of his posts, why did you bring him up? "The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
It was from a series of conversations I've had in the past with tpaine.
“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”
Agreed. When I went to jump school, (Ft Campbell 1955) it really wasn't that bad. -- If memory serves, we had less than a 5% drop out rate. It may have been higher in our whole class. -- I went through with my advanced basic platoon, and we only had a few drop out. I was surprised how many dropped when we were on the line in Germany. Quite a few stopped after 10/15 jumps and got jobs in leg outfits.
Really? He's been unsuccessfully stalking me (among others) for the last 15+ years.
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
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Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestFirst off,Kyle wasn't Special Forces. He was a SEAL,and in the Navy.
#185. To: Palmdale (#181)
Ventura was a alum of SEAL veteran association
#186. To: TooConservative (#142)
Notice how the Kyle fanbois seem to disappear as his lies about killing two guys at the Texas gas station come up and especially his bragging (lies) about running a sniper operation against civilians during Katrina?
#187. To: Pericles (#185)
They are not capable of assessing who is a SEAL or not?
#188. To: Pericles, sneakypete (#176)
Others have seen the flaw in this analogy, and mentioned in private SEAL forums, “try telling that to a WWII UDT veteran who swam ashore before the landing craft on D-Day.” The UDT’s and SEALs are essentially one and the same. It’s why the UDT is still part of the training acronym BUD/S (Basic Underwater Demolition/SEAL).
#189. To: TooConservative (#171)
Me too. I always thought the WW II snipers were the most interesting.
#190. To: sneakypete, TooConservative (#182)
You also have to question taking a PTSD soldier to a firing range as a matter of personal judgment. Yeah,I had a "WTF????" moment over that one,myself.
#191. To: TooConservative, sneakypete (#188)
(Edited)
#192. To: TooConservative (#172)
I thought Ventura was supposed to have completed the basic UDT school but left the service about the time the SEALs were created as a program.
#193. To: Pericles (#174)
Kyle was a high school graduate only.
#194. To: Pericles (#176)
Some say he’s a UDT (Underwater Demolition Team), and not a “SEAL,” but that’s bullshit.
#195. To: sneakypete, TooConservative (#192)
IMHO,the SEALS have no business taking on ground combat roles. They really don't have the training or the mindset for it,and most likely lose a lot of people in combat that a USMC Force Recon team wouldn't lose.
#196. To: TooConservative (#180)
I also like sub movies.
#197. To: sneakypete (#194)
Is that so,scholar?Some say he’s a UDT (Underwater Demolition Team), and not a “SEAL,” but that’s bullshit.
#198. To: Pericles (#191)
(Edited)
An impressive accomplishment by Ventura in his pre Wrestling years regardless.
#199. To: sneakypete (#196)
And being slightly claustrophobic,you couldn't get me in one of those SOB's at gunpoint.
#200. To: Pericles (#190)
If you want a private army of killers then people with PTSD maybe good for carrying out certain assignments?
#201. To: Pericles (#195)
I pondered that upon learning the recent scrubbed mission of a SEALs team against al-Qaeda in Yemen that was thwarted by guard dogs. Would a land based team have forgotten about the use of dogs to sniff out intruders?
#202. To: Pericles (#195)
I pondered that upon learning the recent scrubbed mission of a SEALs team against al-Qaeda in Yemen that was thwarted by guard dogs. Would a land based team have forgotten about the use of dogs to sniff out intruders?
#203. To: sneakypete (#192)
Frankly,I have never understood why the SEAL teams were ever created. They don't do a single damn thing when it comes to ground combat missions that the USMC hasn't been doing for a couple of hundred years now. I can only guess that the Navy brass has always traditionally hated the USMC,and wanted to grab some of the glory for the anchor clankers.
#204. To: Palmdale (#156)
#205. To: CZ82 (#204)
So how long do you think I've been posting on political blogs anyway?
#206. To: Pericles, GarySpFc (#82)
Fit, yes. Bright?
#207. To: Pericles (#107)
In WW1 and WW2 artillery was used againsts snipers, etc. In fact that is still Russian doctrine. If a building has a sniper in it - blow up the building.
#208. To: TooConservative, GarySpFc (#110)
AFAIK, they still maintain it was brought down by a RPG (rocket-propelled grenade). That meant the guy who fired it had to be close and that meant he was in a lot of danger to fire at so many SEALs like that.
#209. To: redleghunter (#206)
When I went to Airborne school I had 5 SEALS in my stick (section). I learned the physical, mental and psychological toils of Buds training and scuba/dive school. A bag of rocks would die in those environments.
#210. To: Fred Mertz (#205)
#211. To: TooConservative, Pericles, GarySpFc (#117)
Certainly. I wouldn't be surprised if that still happens, especially in the Iraq occupation.
#212. To: TooConservative (#110)
As for your description of the sniper-scout, are they actually any braver than our ordinary infantry who go door-to-door in sweeps in a hostile town? I don't think so.
#213. To: TooConservative (#114)
You see the controversy with many SEALs saying that these SEALs writing books about the bin Laden raid are no longer welcome at SEAL reunions and hangouts. The guy who claims (disputed) that he shot bin Laden is an example. I can tell by watching his interviews that he is lying about something big but we'll probably never find out what it was.
#214. To: TooConservative, GarySpFc (#144)
But I turned against it when the lies were exposed by the findings at al-Tuwaitha, Saddam's nuclear reservation. The article is by a team from Texas Tech, probably not a Lefty bastion given it is located in Lubbock.
#215. To: sneakypete (#165)
#216. To: TooConservative (#203)
#217. To: tpaine (#209)
#218. To: redleghunter (#60)
He is alone, trying to blend in with locals and then he finds his spot sets up and waits...alone.
#219. To: tpaine (#209)
Agreed. When I went to jump school, (Ft Campbell 1955) it really wasn't that bad. -- If memory serves, we had less than a 5% drop out rate.
#220. To: TooConservative (#203)
#221. To: CZ82 (#204)
Obsessed over something I have never seen, OK whatever.
#222. To: Palmdale (#221)
#223. To: GarySpFC (#219)
The drop rate was approximately 35 to 40% AT Benning IN 1963.
#224. To: CZ82, misterwhite (#222)
It was from a series of conversations I've had in the past with tpaine.
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