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Title: 'American Sniper': Prominent Libertarian Claims There Is No Difference Between Chris Kyle and Mass Murderer Adam Lanza
Source:
http://www.hngn.com/
URL Source: http://www.hngn.com/articles/65352/ ... ce-between-chris-kyle-mass.htm
Published: Jan 31, 2015
Author: ida Ahmed
Post Date: 2015-01-31 15:56:37 by Gatlin
Keywords: None
Views: 80730
Comments: 315
A prominent libertarian activist has made controversial comparisons between the late "American Sniper" protagonist Navy SEAL Chris Kyle and mass murderer Adam Lanza, who killed 28 people in a 2012 shooting spree. Lanza isn't much different from Kyle, a Navy SEAL sniper who killed 160 people during multiple combat tours in Iraq, Sheldon Richman, vice president of the Future of Freedom Foundation, said on Wednesday. Two years ago, Lanza shot his mother to death, then proceeded to a nearby Sandy Hook Elementary School and killed 20 first-graders and six staffers before committing suicide. "Excuse me, but I have trouble seeing an essential difference between what Kyle did in Iraq and what Adam Lanza did at Sandy Hook Elementary School. It certainly was not heroism," Richman wrote in an op-ed published on the Future of Freedom Foundation website and reprinted by Reason.com. "Despite what some people think, hero is not a synonym for competent government-hired killer," he added. Speaking about the widely debated Clint Eastwood's movie, Richman slammed Kyle's actions, Breitbart reported. "Let's recall some facts, which perhaps Eastwood thought were too obvious to need mention: Kyle was part of an invasion force: Americans went to Iraq. Iraq did not invade America or attack Americans. Dictator Saddam Hussein never even threatened to attack Americans," he continued. "Contrary to what the George W. Bush administration suggested, Iraq had nothing to do with the attacks on Sept. 11, 2001. Before Americans invaded Iraq, Al Qaeda was not there. Nor was it in Syria, Yemen, and Libya." "Wars of aggression, let's remember, are illegal under international law. Nazis were executed at Nuremberg for waging wars of aggression." "The only reason Kyle went to Iraq was that Bush/Cheney & Co. launched a war of aggression against the Iraqi people," he wrote. The deceased sniper cannot be deemed a hero because the American military personnel's lives that he was protecting were the aggressors themselves, according to Richman, Newsmax reported. "What American lives? The lives of American military personnel who invaded another people's country, one that was no threat to them or their fellow Americans back home." If "an invader kills someone who is trying to resist the invasion, that does not count as heroic self-defense; the invader is the aggressor. If anyone's the hero, it's the latter," he wrote. The people who Kyle killed on the battlefield only threatened Americans because "American forces waged an unprovoked war against them," he added. "No Iraqi asked to be killed by Kyle, but it sure looks as though Kyle was asking to be killed by an Iraqi. [Instead, another vet did the job.
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#157. To: Palmdale (#151)
Me neither. Legendary? The real legend was robertpaulsen. Freepers gathered at his feet to learn. So I've heard.
Not really,and especially not in urban areas. They always have spotters with them,and in urban areas their command always knows where they are located and are in constant communication with them. If their "hide" is discovered and they are attacked,command will send out a force to rescue them. BTW,I should confess right here that I am one of those people who see sniping as a necessary evil. I am glad there are other people who are willing to do the job,but I'm not one of them.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
Early Jim Rob photo?
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
Well, that goes without saying.
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
Neither are the USMC Force Recon guys,or any other Special Operations people. Frankly,I have a hard time believing it is still necessary to remind people of this. My guess is this is a result of the old middle-grade prejudices that nerds and wusses had against guys that were bigger,stronger,and more aggressive than them,and scared them. They convinced themselves that "physical people" were dumber than "thinking people" like themselves because it made them feel better about themselves,and now they believe it to be true.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
The moment the Freepathon was invented. "The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
Well said. I don't doubt that most here would agree with you, as I do.
Suddenly they aren't quite so interested in Kyle Well they deny it at first then they complain my link to the article does not work because they don't want to comment on Kyle the liar at best or worse Kyle the roadside or rooftop killer.
Not in the Navy. John Kerry wrote up his own Silver Star award,and had it approved by Navy brass that were nowhere around when it happened. IIRC,John McLunatic even got a SS while being held as a prisoner in Hanoi and doing no fighting at all.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
You're not very bright.
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
And let's not pretend most scholars understand the first thing about being a warrior,never mind being one themselves.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
A scholar wouldn't make a mistake like that.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
Well, that goes without saying. --- Palmdale Both robertpaulsen and roscoe are still only legends in their own minds. The rest of us laughed daily at your tag team efforts to pretend you were conservatives.
Wrong again! You not only ain't a warrior,you ain't much of a scholar either,bubba.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
Me too. I always thought the WW II snipers were the most interesting. The Russians had some awesome snipers and plenty of German targets to hit. They made a significant impact. Of course, the Russians were resisting a genocidal Nazi invasion so you have a certain sympathy for Russkies defending their own country against an invader and so we generally overlook the Soviets' many other horrible shortcomings as a society and country.
I thought Ventura was supposed to have completed the basic UDT school but left the service about the time the SEALs were created as a program. But I haven't read about it in years. I always knew he was no SEAL, no matter what he said. OTOH, who is going to sue a pro wrestler type, where anything he says he'll just blame on his phony wrestler persona. You'd never manage to nail him on Stolen Valor charges and most of his SEAL claims were made well before that law passed Congress. And Ventura was close enough to being a SEAL that he apparently gets invited to some SEALish events, like that graduation where Kyle claimed (falsely) to have given Ventura a black eye.
I LOVED "We Were Soldiers Once,and Young",and "Blackhawk Down". I also liked "Saving Private Ryan" a lot.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
And let's not pretend most scholars understand the first thing about being a warrior,never mind being one themselves. Kyle was a high school graduate only. Let us not pretend SEALs are comic book super soldiers.
Yup. It also means it was a lucky shot for him because they aren't the most accurate weapons in the world,and the rear hatch on a Chinook isn't that big and it is moving. ....and that meant he was in a lot of danger to fire at so many SEALs like that. Not really. The SEALS inside were sitting on seats running the length of the fuselage,and they couldn't return fire. There is generally a machine gunner firing out the ramp door if bad guys are close,but he can't see and shoot at everything when the position is being swarmed.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
Since Ventura was a alum of SEAL veteran association - you know open to seal members only - it is a safe bet he was considered a SEAL or a precursor to the SEALS and thus one of them. Notice this was written before the verdict was reached in Ventura's favor and it was secure in the belief that Kyle would beat Ventura. I have to hand it to Ventura for having the internal fortitude to launch a defamation case because those are almost impossible to win for a celebrity unless the defendant is caught in a provable lie. http://sofrep.com/36086/truth-jesse-venturas-navy-seal-status/ I’ve heard the speculation and gossip about Jesse Ventura’s Navy SEAL status and wanted to set the record straight. Jesse Ventura graduated with Basic Underwater Demolition Class 58 and, like it or not, he earned his status. Some say he’s a UDT (Underwater Demolition Team), and not a “SEAL,” but that’s bullshit. Others have seen the flaw in this analogy, and mentioned in private SEAL forums, “try telling that to a WWII UDT veteran who swam ashore before the landing craft on D-Day.” The UDT’s and SEALs are essentially one and the same. It’s why the UDT is still part of the training acronym BUD/S (Basic Underwater Demolition/SEAL). Like it or not, Jesse Ventura is a Navy SEAL. He did the pushups and put up with the cold water, just like the rest of us. Many are rightfully upset that he took a personal issue between himself and the late Chris Kyle and is now going after his widow and children in a lawsuit that is currently in the trial phase. SOFREP has recently spoke with legal insiders who are trial side and they are putting the odds squarely in the court of the Kyle estate in their opinion, and that’s good news for everyone. Read more: http://sofrep.com/36086/truth-jesse-venturas-navy-seal- status/#ixzz3QVuOoZSh
Hence my later remarks on how there are great shots and there are lucky shots and then there are great lucky shots that almost defy belief.
I'd say he was close enough to being a SEAL. You do notice Ventura has definitely backed off all his SEAL claims since the Stolen Valor law passed. He used to hawk himself that way regularly.
First off,Kyle wasn't Special Forces. He was a SEAL,and in the Navy. ONLY soldiers in the US Army can become Special Forces soldiers. And finally,I don't know of anyone in SF when I was in uniform that would follow orders to snipe at American citizens.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
To pick a few at random, I like Midway a lot because it helped viewers understand some of the complexities of that decisive battle. And I still like Tora Tora Tora and watch it again every few years. I like the big picture movies, I guess. Especially about Japan as Russia really kicked Germany's ass but Japan was all our war. Of course, I do fast-forward past any parts where they talk about their feelings. I also like sub movies. Probably Das Boot tops my list.
The non-governmental "UDT-SEAL Association"?
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
Yeah,I had a "WTF????" moment over that one,myself. I can only guess it is the "video game mindset" of he younger generation,combined with the fact that snipers kill people at such a distance it doesn't seem real.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
You do notice Ventura has definitely backed off all his SEAL claims since the Stolen Valor law passed. He used to hawk himself that way regularly. That law would not affect Ventura. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Valor_Act_of_2013
Hey, take it easy on Pericles! He's typing on a smartphone.
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
The non-governmental "UDT-SEAL Association"? They are not capable of assessing who is a SEAL or not? I guess you don't like the private sector after all.
Suddenly they aren't quite so interested in Kyle. Good for them! It speaks highly for them that they are able to use facts as tools to change their opinions.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
UDT, not SEAL. Or are you pretending the UDT-SEAL Association pronounced the wrassler an honorary SEAL or something?
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
He's entitled to his opinion but the SEAL program became much more extensive in land warfare during the Vietnam era as Ventura was getting out of the service. Fast forward to modern times and SEALs are doing all kinds of stuff completely outside any naval context, going well beyond even what the Marines do. Or, to put it briefly, I'll agree that UDTs are the same as SEALs when you tell me how many campaigns deep in the Mideast deserts or African deserts were fought by UDTs in WW II. Because we know the SEALs operate in jungles, mountains and deserts and are probably ready to take on polar combat as well. The UDTs were really naval guys and supported amphibious landings and sabotaging ships and port facilities and nearby factories and such.
The trench warfare of WW-1 is where sniping played it's biggest role.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
I can only guess it is the "video game mindset" of he younger generation,combined with the fact that snipers kill people at such a distance it doesn't seem real. Want to get conspiracy minded? Kyle was part of something called "Craft International". http://www.thecraft.com/Training.html If you want a private army of killers then people with PTSD maybe good for carrying out certain assignments? Or it could be a simple case of them trying to gain 'good publicity' over training returning vets to be mercenaries.
I know of no SEAL vet association that rejects UDT era vets. At the time the UDTS were as good as we had for what we now imagine is a SEAL and formed the foundation for modern SEALS - An impressive accomplishment by Ventura in his pre Wrestling years regardless.
There were SEAL teams as early as 1964. I know this for a fact because I went through Jump School at Ft.Benning with several of them. AFAIK,all the SEALS back then came from the UDT teams,so naturally the UDT training would be "SEAL Basic Training". The SEALS came from the Navy seeing they were going to lose some of the military budget money and clout unless they developed a ground warfare group NOT called "The US Marine Corps",so I guess they figured he easiest way to go with this would be to add a ground combat mission to the traditional UDT "water and beach" missions. Frankly,I have never understood why the SEAL teams were ever created. They don't do a single damn thing when it comes to ground combat missions that the USMC hasn't been doing for a couple of hundred years now. I can only guess that the Navy brass has always traditionally hated the USMC,and wanted to grab some of the glory for the anchor clankers. IMHO,the SEALS have no business taking on ground combat roles. They really don't have the training or the mindset for it,and most likely lose a lot of people in combat that a USMC Force Recon team wouldn't lose.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
And.....?
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
Is that so,scholar? Spent a lot of time in Special Operations,did ya?
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
I pondered that upon learning the recent scrubbed mission of a SEALs team against al-Qaeda in Yemen that was thwarted by guard dogs. Would a land based team have forgotten about the use of dogs to sniff out intruders?
Me,too. Also books about submarine warfare. I have no idea why. And being slightly claustrophobic,you couldn't get me in one of those SOB's at gunpoint.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
Is that so,scholar? Spent a lot of time in Special Operations,did ya? See the link those words were posted by someone involved in such affairs.
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Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest"I don't think he's the legendary Roscoe."
#158. To: redleghunter (#60)
(Edited)
Sniper leaves alone with minimal ammunition and communications hours if not the day or night before to recon his site. He is alone, trying to blend in with locals and then he finds his spot sets up and waits...alone.
#159. To: Palmdale (#61)
#160. To: misterwhite (#157)
The real legend was robertpaulsen.
#161. To: redleghunter (#63)
SEALs are not stupid.
#162. To: sneakypete (#159)
#163. To: sneakypete (#158)
BTW,I should confess right here that I am one of those people who see sniping as a necessary evil. I am glad there are other people who are willing to do the job,but I'm not one of them.. ---- Sneakypete
#164. To: TooConservative (#142)
Notice how the Kyle fanbois seem to disappear as his lies about killing two guys at the Texas gas station come up and especially his bragging (lies) about running a sniper operation against civilians during Katrina?
#165. To: redleghunter (#72)
Gary as you know valor awards, especially the above ones, require a minimum of three eyewitness sworn statements.
#166. To: Pericles (#164)
they complain my link to the article does not work
#167. To: Pericles (#77)
Let's not pretend SEALS are warriors AND scholars.
#168. To: Pericles (#81)
Why should I apologize for confusing the name of a sports arena?
#169. To: Palmdale, misterwhite, Y'ALL (#160)
misterwhite (#157) --- The real legend was robertpaulsen.
#170. To: Pericles (#84)
Ventura was in the same military unit before they were given the cooler and more catchy SEAL's name.
#171. To: tpaine (#163)
BTW,I should confess right here that I am one of those people who see sniping as a necessary evil.
#172. To: sneakypete (#170)
#173. To: TooConservative (#103)
(Edited)
Combat veterans usually don't like the war movies
#174. To: sneakypete (#167)
Let's not pretend SEALS are warriors AND scholars.
#175. To: TooConservative (#110)
AFAIK, they still maintain it was brought down by a RPG (rocket-propelled grenade). That meant the guy who fired it had to be close ...
#176. To: TooConservative, sneakypete (#172)
(Edited)
I thought Ventura was supposed to have completed the basic UDT school but left the service about the time the SEALs were created as a program. But I haven't read about it in years. I always knew he was no SEAL, no matter what he said. OTOH, who is going to sue a pro wrestler type, where anything he says he'll just blame on his phony wrestler persona. You'd never manage to nail him on Stolen Valor charges and most of his SEAL claims were made well before that law passed Congress.
#177. To: sneakypete (#175)
t also means it was a lucky shot for him because they aren't the most accurate weapons in the world
#178. To: Pericles (#176)
Since Ventura was a alum of SEAL veteran association - you know open to seal members only - it is a safe bet he was considered a SEAL or a precursor to the SEALS and thus one of them.
#179. To: Pericles (#121)
then in real life would he or his SF pals have a problem shooting Americans in the streets for money?
#180. To: sneakypete (#173)
I LOVED "We Were Soldiers Once,and Young",and "Blackhawk Down". I also liked "Saving Private Ryan" a lot.
#181. To: Pericles (#176)
Ventura was a alum of SEAL veteran association
#182. To: TooConservative (#132)
You also have to question taking a PTSD soldier to a firing range as a matter of personal judgment.
#183. To: TooConservative (#178)
Since Ventura was a alum of SEAL veteran association - you know open to seal members only - it is a safe bet he was considered a SEAL or a precursor to the SEALS and thus one of them. I'd say he was close enough to being a SEAL.
#184. To: sneakypete, Pericles (#179)
First off,Kyle wasn't Special Forces. He was a SEAL,and in the Navy.
#185. To: Palmdale (#181)
Ventura was a alum of SEAL veteran association
#186. To: TooConservative (#142)
Notice how the Kyle fanbois seem to disappear as his lies about killing two guys at the Texas gas station come up and especially his bragging (lies) about running a sniper operation against civilians during Katrina?
#187. To: Pericles (#185)
They are not capable of assessing who is a SEAL or not?
#188. To: Pericles, sneakypete (#176)
Others have seen the flaw in this analogy, and mentioned in private SEAL forums, “try telling that to a WWII UDT veteran who swam ashore before the landing craft on D-Day.” The UDT’s and SEALs are essentially one and the same. It’s why the UDT is still part of the training acronym BUD/S (Basic Underwater Demolition/SEAL).
#189. To: TooConservative (#171)
Me too. I always thought the WW II snipers were the most interesting.
#190. To: sneakypete, TooConservative (#182)
You also have to question taking a PTSD soldier to a firing range as a matter of personal judgment. Yeah,I had a "WTF????" moment over that one,myself.
#191. To: TooConservative, sneakypete (#188)
(Edited)
#192. To: TooConservative (#172)
I thought Ventura was supposed to have completed the basic UDT school but left the service about the time the SEALs were created as a program.
#193. To: Pericles (#174)
Kyle was a high school graduate only.
#194. To: Pericles (#176)
Some say he’s a UDT (Underwater Demolition Team), and not a “SEAL,” but that’s bullshit.
#195. To: sneakypete, TooConservative (#192)
IMHO,the SEALS have no business taking on ground combat roles. They really don't have the training or the mindset for it,and most likely lose a lot of people in combat that a USMC Force Recon team wouldn't lose.
#196. To: TooConservative (#180)
I also like sub movies.
#197. To: sneakypete (#194)
Is that so,scholar?Some say he’s a UDT (Underwater Demolition Team), and not a “SEAL,” but that’s bullshit.
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