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Title: 'American Sniper': Prominent Libertarian Claims There Is No Difference Between Chris Kyle and Mass Murderer Adam Lanza
Source: http://www.hngn.com/
URL Source: http://www.hngn.com/articles/65352/ ... ce-between-chris-kyle-mass.htm
Published: Jan 31, 2015
Author: ida Ahmed
Post Date: 2015-01-31 15:56:37 by Gatlin
Keywords: None
Views: 80461
Comments: 315

A prominent libertarian activist has made controversial comparisons between the late "American Sniper" protagonist Navy SEAL Chris Kyle and mass murderer Adam Lanza, who killed 28 people in a 2012 shooting spree.

Lanza isn't much different from Kyle, a Navy SEAL sniper who killed 160 people during multiple combat tours in Iraq, Sheldon Richman, vice president of the Future of Freedom Foundation, said on Wednesday. Two years ago, Lanza shot his mother to death, then proceeded to a nearby Sandy Hook Elementary School and killed 20 first-graders and six staffers before committing suicide.

"Excuse me, but I have trouble seeing an essential difference between what Kyle did in Iraq and what Adam Lanza did at Sandy Hook Elementary School. It certainly was not heroism," Richman wrote in an op-ed published on the Future of Freedom Foundation website and reprinted by Reason.com.

"Despite what some people think, hero is not a synonym for competent government-hired killer," he added.

Speaking about the widely debated Clint Eastwood's movie, Richman slammed Kyle's actions, Breitbart reported.

"Let's recall some facts, which perhaps Eastwood thought were too obvious to need mention: Kyle was part of an invasion force: Americans went to Iraq. Iraq did not invade America or attack Americans. Dictator Saddam Hussein never even threatened to attack Americans," he continued. "Contrary to what the George W. Bush administration suggested, Iraq had nothing to do with the attacks on Sept. 11, 2001. Before Americans invaded Iraq, Al Qaeda was not there. Nor was it in Syria, Yemen, and Libya."

"Wars of aggression, let's remember, are illegal under international law. Nazis were executed at Nuremberg for waging wars of aggression."

"The only reason Kyle went to Iraq was that Bush/Cheney & Co. launched a war of aggression against the Iraqi people," he wrote.

The deceased sniper cannot be deemed a hero because the American military personnel's lives that he was protecting  were the aggressors themselves, according to Richman, Newsmax reported.

"What American lives? The lives of American military personnel who invaded another people's country, one that was no threat to them or their fellow Americans back home."

If "an invader kills someone who is trying to resist the invasion, that does not count as heroic self-defense; the invader is the aggressor. If anyone's the hero, it's the latter," he wrote.

The people who Kyle killed on the battlefield only threatened Americans because "American forces waged an unprovoked war against them," he added. "No Iraqi asked to be killed by Kyle, but it sure looks as though Kyle was asking to be killed by an Iraqi. [Instead, another vet did the job.

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#103. To: redleghunter (#53)

I for one probably won't see the movie. Had quite my fill of the real motion picture and have the six hash marks to prove it.

Combat veterans usually don't like the war movies. Or war in general. Fanbois who have never served are the big market for these things.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-02-01   4:05:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#104. To: Otter, Palmdale (#102)

I am in America for 6 months then off to Europe for the warmer months. I am blessed.

Pericles  posted on  2015-02-01   4:07:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#105. To: Pericles (#57)

I don't recall which nation's soldier said it or if it was in WW1 or WW2 but artillery spotters boasted in history book I read that they were snipers with larger guns.

Generally, artillery over the last century is used against enemy armies and their assets. So you might compare artillery to a classic WW II sniper but in practice it just isn't accurate.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-02-01   4:08:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#106. To: TooConservative (#103)

Combat veterans usually don't like the war movies. Or war in general. Fanbois who have never served are the big market for these things.

I want to say again, I think Kyle was used by FOX owned Harper Collins books via professional ghostwriters to invent a war narrative where he is doing what FOX viewers love to see done in a war.

Pericles  posted on  2015-02-01   4:09:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#107. To: TooConservative (#105)

I don't recall which nation's soldier said it or if it was in WW1 or WW2 but artillery spotters boasted in history book I read that they were snipers with larger guns.

Generally, artillery over the last century is used against enemy armies and their assets. So you might compare artillery to a classic WW II sniper but in practice it just isn't accurate.

In WW1 and WW2 artillery was used againsts snipers, etc. In fact that is still Russian doctrine. If a building has a sniper in it - blow up the building.

Pericles  posted on  2015-02-01   4:12:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#108. To: Pericles (#104)

I am blessed.

So are we for the 6 months you are in Europe.

Otter  posted on  2015-02-01   4:24:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#109. To: Otter (#108) (Edited)

I am blessed. So are we for the 6 months you are in Europe.

I will be posting even more on here since I would be working Euro hours so you will indeed be blessed with more postings.

Pericles  posted on  2015-02-01   4:30:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#110. To: redleghunter (#60)

Here's a typical scenario. The team's mission is to conduct a mission in a constrained urban area. Strike time is 2200 hours. Sniper leaves alone with minimal ammunition and communications hours if not the day or night before to recon his site. He is alone, trying to blend in with locals and then he finds his spot sets up and waits...alone. No one covers him, he could be under observation thus putting the team at risk. The team shows up within his field of view or on comms. Sniper provides overwatch. If he shoots, he has to move, thus exposing himself.

The so-called sniper-scout. I mentioned the differences between what people think about snipers earlier, the contrast between WW II classic snipers and the modern variants that we lump together as snipers.

A lot braver than the internet jockies blathering about elementary school murderers. I mean it's not like flying large passenger airplanes into skyscrapers.

With regard to the targets of a sniper, there is no difference. It is still like shooting fish in a barrel or kids in a classroom. Helpless targets, completely unprepared. Like shooting a deer from a quarter-mile away.

Maybe we should look at snipers from another angle.

2011 Chinook shootdown in Afghanistan "The resulting crash killed all 38 people on board—25 American special operations personnel, five United States Army National Guard and Army Reserve crewmen, seven Afghan commandos, and one Afghan interpreter—as well as a U.S. military working dog."

AFAIK, they still maintain it was brought down by a RPG (rocket-propelled grenade). That meant the guy who fired it had to be close and that meant he was in a lot of danger to fire at so many SEALs like that.

So the RPG guy was essentially a sniper with an RPG. Was he brave? Was he a patriot of Afghanistan and a freedom fighter? Or just a terrorist?

And the SEALs were helpless victims in that Chinook. Like the kids Lanza shot were helpless victims. Like shooting a deer from a quarter-mile away with a scope.

As for your description of the sniper-scout, are they actually any braver than our ordinary infantry who go door-to-door in sweeps in a hostile town? I don't think so.

I think Eastwood was trying to raise some of these questions in his movie but the Right and Left are having such a food fight over it that no one is seeing it with a lot of their own biases and political grudges injected into it. Directors often have this problem with their audiences on controversial topics.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-02-01   4:33:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#111. To: Pericles (#109)

Good, I like shooting down anti-American, lefty trash.

Otter  posted on  2015-02-01   4:39:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#112. To: TooConservative (#110)

So the RPG guy was essentially a sniper with an RPG. Was he brave? Was he a patriot of Afghanistan and a freedom fighter? Or just a terrorist?

During the Iraq invasion I read a report an Iraqi sniper killed the Abrams driver and that caused the tank to roll off a bridge and into the drink.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-03-31-tanks-crew- cover_x.htm

Late Monday, U.S. Central Command in Qatar released a statement that said a preliminary investigation of the incident suggested that the tank's driver was shot and killed before the tank plunged off the unfinished bridge and into the Euphrates.

Navy divers reported that the tank landed upside down, on its turret, and that the turret wedged into the muddy floor of the river.

Crews train to escape from an overturned tank but not one under water. Even if the crew had been able to open a hatch, a difficult task, water would have rushed in, making escape nearly impossible.

Pericles  posted on  2015-02-01   4:40:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#113. To: Otter (#111)

Good, I like shooting down anti-American, lefty trash.

Let me know when you do it - so far your efforts are failing. PS: I maybe anti-American (debatable) but I am not a leftist.

Pericles  posted on  2015-02-01   4:41:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#114. To: Pericles (#88)

But one thing I learned about Kyle, apart from his military exploits and his generosity toward other veterans, was his propensity for embellishment. More than one person I spoke to remembered him telling a story about how he’d travelled to New Orleans in the days after Hurricane Katrina and, in a bid to establish law and order, had set up a sniper position on the roof of the Superdome and shot numerous looters. He told another story, too, about how he’d shot and killed two men at a gas station outside of Dallas after they tried to rob him—and was then allowed to flee the scene, without penalty, because a police officer recognized his contributions to the country. Both stories might have occurred. But, in numerous interviews and records requests, I turned up no verifiable evidence that they had.

It certainly tends to discount his other narratives. Why he thought being a sniper against looters in NOLA would be admired is a question that was never answered. It does tell us a lot about our military and their willingness to fire on American civilians.

And all these SEALs appearing on TV and writing books is against the SEAL code. SEALs are supposed to only act as a group, never as individuals. They're supposed to keep who they are and other info about the program secret.

You see the controversy with many SEALs saying that these SEALs writing books about the bin Laden raid are no longer welcome at SEAL reunions and hangouts. The guy who claims (disputed) that he shot bin Laden is an example. I can tell by watching his interviews that he is lying about something big but we'll probably never find out what it was.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-02-01   4:44:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#115. To: TooConservative (#110)

Like the kids Lanza shot were helpless victims. Like shooting a deer from a quarter-mile away with a scope.

Not even close! Lanza shot children at point blank range inside a building.

Otter  posted on  2015-02-01   4:45:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#116. To: Pericles (#113)

Let me know when you do it -

Already have. Apparently you aren't intelligent enough to realize it. You can't tell the difference between an article's content and a reader's comment, lefty.

Otter  posted on  2015-02-01   4:47:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#117. To: Pericles, redleghunter (#107)

In WW1 and WW2 artillery was used againsts snipers, etc. In fact that is still Russian doctrine. If a building has a sniper in it - blow up the building.

Certainly. I wouldn't be surprised if that still happens, especially in the Iraq occupation.

But a military sniper is a military asset and few object to using snipers or choppers or artillery or any other means to wipe out an enemy sniper.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-02-01   4:48:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#118. To: Otter (#115)

Not even close! Lanza shot children at point blank range inside a building.

So you're saying that Lanza was braver than a classic sniper because the kiddies might have attacked him or a teacher might have attacked from behind a door with a sharp object. Or a local cop might have stopped through the school for a DARE visit or other reasons.

Keep in mind, I make these comparisons from the perspective of the targets posing any danger to the sniper, i.e. whether they can defend themselves in any way from sniper attack.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-02-01   4:52:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#119. To: TooConservative (#118)

So you're saying that Lanza was braver than a classic sniper

Are you drunk or high on junk?

Otter  posted on  2015-02-01   4:54:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#120. To: TooConservative (#118)

So you're saying that Lanza was braver than a classic sniper because the kiddies might have attacked him

No, you don't believe that's what he was saying.

"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts

Palmdale  posted on  2015-02-01   4:55:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#121. To: TooConservative (#114) (Edited)

You see the controversy with many SEALs saying that these SEALs writing books about the bin Laden raid are no longer welcome at SEAL reunions and hangouts. The guy who claims (disputed) that he shot bin Laden is an example. I can tell by watching his interviews that he is lying about something big but we'll probably never find out what it was.

The Bush admin opening the door to Blackwater - they seem to hire special forces who retire early to go work for these new merc outfits - degraded the American esprit de corps of the SEALS.

Suddenly you have rich SEALs at reunions and that has to be responsible for SEALs risking their reputations and their honor for cash.

The cool thing about the SEAL raid on OBL was it was done as a unit - it really is no big deal who shot an old dick like OBL who is not exactly a combat threat - it actually takes away the mystique to the point you are a SEAL boasting about shooting an old man who tried to hide behind a woman.

Also, good point about the NOLA story - when I read that I took it for real from Kyle and was like "holy shit! ex special forces snipers gunned down Americans on city streets and no one reported it!!!" And then kind of forgot about it when I heard reports it was Kyle being a liar. But if this was a lie Kyle made up to make himself look good - he assumed it was a story that made him look heroic - then in real life would he or his SF pals have a problem shooting Americans in the streets for money?

Pericles  posted on  2015-02-01   4:55:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#122. To: Pericles (#112)

Crews train to escape from an overturned tank but not one under water. Even if the crew had been able to open a hatch, a difficult task, water would have rushed in, making escape nearly impossible.

I thought most modern U.S. tanks had a small, inward-swinging escape hatch on the bottom chassis. Which would not be sealed by outside water pressure. Most likely, the crew was unconscious anyway and just drowned.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-02-01   4:56:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#123. To: Otter (#119)

He got spanked worse than usual earlier today and it has left him a bit unhinged.

"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts

Palmdale  posted on  2015-02-01   4:56:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#124. To: Otter (#116) (Edited)

Let me know when you do it -

Already have. Apparently you aren't intelligent enough to realize it. You can't tell the difference between an article's content and a reader's comment, lefty.

Ha! You think a blog is an article! How dumb are you? That was precious.

Pericles  posted on  2015-02-01   4:56:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#125. To: Pericles (#121)

The cool thing about the SEAL raid on OBL was it was done as a unit - it really is no big deal who shot an old dick like OBL who is not exactly a combat threat - it actually takes away the mystique to the point you are a SEAL boasting about shooting an old man who tried to hide behind a woman.

Yeah but one guy claims he's the shooter, others dispute it.

Suddenly you have rich SEALs at reunions and that has to be responsible for SEALs risking their reputations and their honor for cash.

You see why the SEAL code was important to their success and cohesiveness. Now people know where the SEAL bars are, which beaches they train at, etc.

Also, good point about the NOLA story - when I read that I took it for real from Kyle and was like "holy shit! ex special forces snipers gunned down Americans on city streets and no one reported it!!!" And then kind of forgot about it when I heard reports it was Kyle being a liar. But if this was a lie Kyle made up to make himself look good - he assumed it was a story that made him look heroic - then in real life would he or his SF pals have a problem shooting Americans in the streets for money?

If he wrote that, then you have to assume at least some SEALs would be just fine with shooting other Americans here in the States. How else could you interpret it?

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-02-01   4:59:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#126. To: TooConservative (#122)

thought most modern U.S. tanks had a small, inward-swinging escape hatch on the bottom chassis. Which would not be sealed by outside water pressure. Most likely, the crew was unconscious anyway and just drowned.

The inrushing water would be too much for them if they were conscious - I imagine they were not wearing seatbelts and the tumbling could cause a lot of damage to a human body.

But that was an amazing shot by the Iraqi if that caused the kill.

Pericles  posted on  2015-02-01   5:01:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#127. To: Pericles (#124)

You think a blog is an article!

An article is a written work published in a print or electronic medium. You really aren't too bright and you aren't intelligent enough to know when you've been drawn and quartered.

Otter  posted on  2015-02-01   5:01:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#128. To: Palmdale (#123)

He got spanked worse than usual earlier today and it has left him a bit unhinged.

Are you sure it isn't the result of intoxication?

Otter  posted on  2015-02-01   5:02:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#129. To: TooConservative (#125) (Edited)

You see why the SEAL code was important to their success and cohesiveness. Now people know where the SEAL bars are, which beaches they train at, etc.

Also, good point about the NOLA story - when I read that I took it for real from Kyle and was like "holy shit! ex special forces snipers gunned down Americans on city streets and no one reported it!!!" And then kind of forgot about it when I heard reports it was Kyle being a liar. But if this was a lie Kyle made up to make himself look good - he assumed it was a story that made him look heroic - then in real life would he or his SF pals have a problem shooting Americans in the streets for money? If he wrote that, then you have to assume at least some SEALs would be just fine with shooting other Americans here in the States. How else could you interpret it?

Also, Kyle's lie about killing the 2 carjackers and then the cops making the evidence disappear for him after they find out he is this SF guy. Story was complete BS but that means in his mind that is how it would go down if he or any special forces assassinated an American for money or on orders. Police would cover it up after. That is a scary thought now that you made me think of it from that perspective.

Pericles  posted on  2015-02-01   5:05:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#130. To: Otter (#127)

An article is a written work published in a print or electronic medium. You really aren't too bright and you aren't intelligent enough to know when you've been drawn and quartered.

Someone's response to an article (which he linked) which was then responded to. It is not an "article".

Pericles  posted on  2015-02-01   5:06:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#131. To: Pericles (#126)

But that was an amazing shot by the Iraqi if that caused the kill.

There are great shots and lucky shots. Then there are great lucky shots. Because we live in a chaotic universe.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-02-01   5:09:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#132. To: Pericles (#129)

Also, Kyle's lie about killing the 2 carjackers and then the cops making the evidence disappear for him after they find out he is this SF guy. Story was complete BS but that means in his mind that is how it would go down if he or any special forces assassinated an American for money or on orders. Police would cover it up after. That is a scary thought now that you made me think of it from that perspective.

It opens a new perspective on Kyle's mind and attitudes.

You also have to question taking a PTSD soldier to a firing range as a matter of personal judgment. I get the approach of get-back-on-the-horse but it obviously didn't turn out too well for Kyle.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-02-01   5:11:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#133. To: Pericles (#130)

Put the bong down, lefty. You're just making a bigger fool of yourself.

Otter  posted on  2015-02-01   5:11:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#134. To: TooConservative (#131)

But that was an amazing shot by the Iraqi if that caused the kill.

There are great shots and lucky shots. Then there are great lucky shots. Because we live in a chaotic universe.

That would have been a Medal Of Honor winning shot if done by an American on an enemy tank.

Pericles  posted on  2015-02-01   5:12:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#135. To: Otter (#133) (Edited)

Go find some more blogs to read and think they are news articles. Clearly, that is the level you are at. And please, I am not a lefty but will accept being called anti-American or traitor or enemy of America, etc. Not entirely accurate but acceptable.

Pericles  posted on  2015-02-01   5:12:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#136. To: Pericles (#135)

An article is a written work published in a print or electronic medium, lefty.

Otter  posted on  2015-02-01   5:14:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#137. To: Otter (#136) (Edited)

n article is a written work published in a print or electronic medium, lefty.

No, it is someone commenting on someone's opinion. It is no different than what we do commenting on articles. I guess my comments on here can be "articles" now.

Pericles  posted on  2015-02-01   5:15:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#138. To: Pericles (#134)

That would have been a Medal Of Honor winning shot if done by an American on an enemy tank.

Maybe. My understanding is that a single shot from a sniper has to be awesomely skillful (very long distance) and the operator has to be in considerable danger while taking it. Getting medals for a single-shot is pretty rare.

Our military has some truly great shooters. Even our regular Army infantry have some very scary shooters in the ranks.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-02-01   5:17:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#139. To: TooConservative (#138)

Maybe. My understanding is that a single shot from a sniper has to be awesomely skillful (very long distance) and the operator has to be in considerable danger while taking it. Getting medals for a single-shot is pretty rare.

Our military has some truly great shooters. Even our regular Army infantry have some very scary shooters in the ranks.

The article made it sound the tank crew got left behind and the tank driver probably had his head exposed outside of the hatch.

Pericles  posted on  2015-02-01   5:19:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#140. To: Pericles (#137)

Your stubborn ignorance is pathetic, lefty.

www.thefreedictionary.com/article

www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/article

a piece of writing about a particular subject that is included in a magazine, newspaper, etc.

Otter  posted on  2015-02-01   5:22:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#141. To: Pericles (#43)

so suddenly this movie comes out that is more fake than the book and this re-ignites the old debate about the Bush justified war in Iraq vs those who knew the was was BS and Kyle stands for the BS of it all.

Exactly so. The blather over this movie is just a continuation of the same fight the Left and Right were having back before the Bush surge and after it.

Lots of people have deep opinions of it despite never seeing it. That should tell us a lot.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-02-01   5:31:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#142. To: Pericles (#139)

Notice how the Kyle fanbois seem to disappear as his lies about killing two guys at the Texas gas station come up and especially his bragging (lies) about running a sniper operation against civilians during Katrina?

Suddenly they aren't quite so interested in Kyle.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-02-01   5:40:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#143. To: Pericles (#106)

I want to say again, I think Kyle was used by FOX owned Harper Collins books via professional ghostwriters to invent a war narrative where he is doing what FOX viewers love to see done in a war.

His death and the Ventura lawsuit kinda ruined the planned narratives and book/movie deal. Along with some of the other info that has surfaced.

Take a look at Fox News sometime. Even as recently as a few years ago, every guest on FNC was hawking a book. Every one of them. Including all the hosts. It was a bookselling behemoth, one long infomercial for Murdoch-owned publishing houses. Doesn't Murdoch own Regnery as well as Harper?

Apparently, they overdid the book schtick so they cut way back on book promotions the last few years. Even O'Blather has stopped hawking his ghostwritten Killing Kennedy/Lincoln/Patton/Jesus books which he promoted for free on virtually every show. And FNC didn't allow that much free advertising unless Murdoch said so. Because he was making even more money and building up his publishing empire as a result of these "free" ads.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-02-01   5:48:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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