Creationism/Evolution
See other Creationism/Evolution Articles
Title: Pope Francis says Big Bang theory and evolution 'compatible with divine Creator'
Source:
telegraph.co.uk
URL Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor ... tible-with-divine-Creator.html
Published: Oct 28, 2014
Author: By Nick Squires
Post Date: 2014-10-28 13:42:04 by Ferret Mike
Keywords: None
Views: 61881
Comments: 132
Theory universe born in cosmic explosion 13.7 billion years ago 'doesn't contradict' divine Creator but 'demands it', says pontiff The theory of the Big Bang is compatible with the Catholic Church's teaching on creation and belief in both is possible, Pope Francis has said. The Pope insisted that God was responsible for the Big Bang, from which all life then evolved. The Big Bang - the theory that the universe was born in a cosmic explosion about 13.7 billion years ago and has expanded and evolved since - "doesn't contradict the intervention of a divine Creator, but demands it," the Pope said. The beginning of the world was not "the work of chaos" but part of a divine plan by the Creator, he said. The Jesuit Pope made the remarks during an address to a meeting of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, which gathered at the Vatican to discuss "Evolving Concepts of Nature". "Evolution in nature is not inconsistent with the notion of creation, because evolution requires the creation of beings that evolve," he told the meeting. God should not be regarded as some sort of "magician", waving a magic wand, he said. "When we read about creation in Genesis, we run the risk of imagining God was a magician, with a magic wand able to do everything. But that is not so," he said. "He created human beings and let them develop according to the internal laws that He gave to each one so they would reach fulfilment." The Pope's remarks were in line with Catholic Church teaching of the last few decades. As far back as 1950, Pope Pius XII said that there was no intrinsic conflict between Catholic doctrine and the theory of evolution, provided that Catholics believed that the human soul was created by God and not the result of random evolutionary forces. That stance was affirmed in 1996 by Pope John Paul II. "The Pope's declaration is significant," said Giovanni Bignami, the president of Italy's National Institute for Astrophysics. "We are the descendants of the Big Bang, which created the universe. You just have to think that in our blood we have a few litres of hydrogen, which was created by the Big Bang 13.7 billion years ago. "Our blood is red because it contains iron, which was created by the explosion of a star millions and millions of years ago. Out of creation came evolution."
Post Comment Private Reply Ignore Thread
Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest
Comments (1-58) not displayed.
.
.
.
#59. To: Liberator (#21)
If we believe that Genesis tells us that, then we are not reading carefully enough. Genesis doesn't say that.
Also Moderator http://libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=35507&Disp=37#C37 HA! That thread is HILARIOUS!! And yup -- there is "moderator" Tater Tot/Gilligan pretending to be an authoritah. Both you and cal fired off lines I'm still chucking over.
The flaw in all radioactivity dating methods, whether Carbon-14 or Uranium isotope, is they all rely on a uniform rate of decay. However, radioactive decay rates are a function of "C", the speed of light. If C has decayed over time (and there is experimental evidence that it has, parabolically, since early times - it was tens of thousands of times faster in distant ages), then the "clock" of radioactive decay rates used to run much, much faster. If the clock ran 1,000,000 times faster 20,000 years ago, then 100 million years, at the current rate, ran in 100 years. That is how you can end up with an earth that radioactively measures at "billions" of years old that is, in fact, only tens of thousands of years old. It's also why the light coming in in all directions from distant galaxies is all red-shifted, and why the red-shift is quantized. The slowing of the speed of light is actually observed BY the red-shift, and has been calculated using the various calculations of the speed of light over the past 300 years. The consist drift is about 1% decay in 300 years. Fitted to a curve, we get a parabola with light a billion times faster a couple of tens of thousands of years ago. That is probably the real truth behind all of this, which is why putting it together as I have, which actually shows you the MECHANISM, and EXPLAINS both the celestial phenomena AND the radioactive dating phenomena all together, is certain to raise vehement and explosive anger in some. Wait and you'll see it.
LOL! Oh noes! Hiri Kiri, Siggy-San! (Or is it now 82-San?) P.S. -- Was that Samarai you in the vid, Vic? ;-)
What is "death"? Jesus said that God is the God of the living, and spoke of those whose bodies had died as nevertheless living. Yes, but we must still consider the context of the here and now which affect the then and there. Don't become fixated on PHYSICAL death, because physical death isn't DEATH. Physical death isn't what came into the world with sin. Real death is what did, and real death is entirely of the spirit. The body is not the issue. I agree. To a degree. Jesus noted the death of the physical realm. But we are still hardwired to avoid death, aren't we? The "fear" has more to do with the suffering part. Even if we know there's the next Life....(or Death or some.)
Never heard of this.
Do you REALLY want me to do this. You're not going to like where it comes out. So ask yourself before you answer whether it matters, ultimately. I myself have decided that it really DOESN'T. Jesus never bothered admonishing anybody about it. He spent his time telling people what to DO and not to do, in order to be pleasing to the Father. So I think that THAT'S what is ULTIMATELY important. And so when in a room with headstrong and vehement Christians, of differing views on creation, I usually put in a placeholder (like I did), but then let it go because, after all, Christ called for UNITY, and here's a really good opportunity for Christians to start banging the furniture, tearing their hair out, yelling at each other and finding a new source of disunity...and thinking that it's IMPORTANT. I don't think it's important, but I DO think that there is an answer, and I DO think, further, that the scientific evidence of artifacts and experiments actually SHOWS us the answer, when the revealed Genesis template is laid alongside of it. It's very comforting to me to see this. The Catholic Church doesn't really CARE. But it's GOING to cause anguish to some Protestants who have invested a lot in the subject, because even though the outcome is that, yes, the world really is only a few thousand years old, some of the key arguments that Protestants use are actually quite wrong, and they're wrong on SCRIPTURE. They're taking ENGLISH and making assumptions, but they have to take Hebrew and pictographs instead, to actually get the template. I'm...somewhat...willing to do it, to show the template and the language and the facts. BUT I'm not willing to generate heat, or take abuse for it. If there must be heat and abuse, then I'd rather leave that scroll sealed, because it doesn't ultimately MATTER to the final disposition of the spirits of people - what one believes about creation is not on the list of things that Jesus said would get one thrown into the lake of fire. So, those who really love philosophy, theology, history, science, language and truth might enjoy the read. I'm really hesitant to start posting over here and to get in an hellacious fight with my fellow Christians on the first day. I'd rather clean out the garage or get my teeth cleaned than that.
But Scripture does not actually SAY that. What it SAYS is that none come to the Father except through Jesus. That's true. But that does not mean that one must "ask for and accept the blood of Jesus Christ as ransom for our sins". That is the interpretation supplied by human tradition. And it's not quite right. Regarding "human tradition" not being "quite right," I agree with you -- which is coincidentally what many Protestants find objectionable about the RCC rites, creeds, and Marian addenda. In THIS case, my assertion of "accepting the blood of Jesus Christ as ransom for my sins" may not be scriptural verbatim, but the interpretive context is the same when I acknowledge Jesus' words to He and the Father. Look at the last page of Scripture, where Jesus himself, enthroned in Heaven, says that men will be judged by their DEEDS, and then lists the deeds that will earn a trip to the lake of fire. Let's assume you're right on the swan dive into the Lake of Fire... You've asserted, "Final judgment is not a science test but a morals and deeds test." Well, we are sinners even though that IS true. Do the "morals and deeds" tests trump considerations acknowledging Jesus as my personal Savior?
Follow me and don't let go. This is not heresy. The word "Elohiym" - "God" - remember, is a PLURAL. The singular is "El or Al", masculine, or "Eloah or Alah", feminine. Both the masculine and feminine singular forms appear as place names or as parts of the name of the Deity (El Shaddai literally means "The Mighty One of My Teats"; El-Elyon - literally means the Mighty One - Mighty One whose Arm generates over the chaos). Elohiym is a unitive noun and takes the masculine singular verb when speaking of GOD; otherwise it means "gods" (really "mighty ones") when it takes a plural verb. Next, there is the "Breath of God" - the "Ruach Elohiym", or the "Holy Breath". We translate "Breath" in Greek as "Pneuma" - and this is the word Spirit. In Hebrew, the Spirit of God (that hovers over the water) is a feminine singular noun. The "Spirit" in Hebrew is feminine. Likewise, the Shekinah, the Glory of God that radiates around holy things, and out of the Ark of the Covenant, is a feminine singular. All of these things: YHWH, Ruach, Shekinah, El and Eloah are all unitively referred to as the plural "Elohiym": God. Now look at the 6th day: In Elohiym's image he made man; male and female he made them. Elohiym is both male and female. El is male. YHWH is male. Jesus is male. But the Holy Spirit is female, and so is the Glory of God. This is so grammatically. It's also right there in the text: in Elohiym's image, male and female both. Eloah, Ruach and Shekinah are female. And all "part" of Elohiym. Elohiym takes a masculine singular noun, but when being self-referential, Elohiym frequently employs "WE". YHWH only employs "I". It's all right there, if one unpacks it carefully. This should be a source of joy, because all of a sudden all sorts of strange and messy loose ends in Scripture make sense, and we realize that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all right there in the very first SENTENCE of Genesis. Indeed, it's pretty obvious when one looks at the words, the plurals. It's easy to see the Trinity, and Christians love to see this. Some Christians become stubborn and don't like seeing the femininity of God ALSO right there in Genesis, particularly the femininity of the Holy Spirit. That is disturbing, because it's not the Christian tradition. Throw out the bad tradition, then, just as Jesus says to, and embrace what the Scripture SAYS on its face, in the inspired Hebrew. It's perfectly obvious in Hebrew that the Spirit is feminine. It's a feminine word. We don't HAVE masculine and feminine gender of nouns in English, so we don't see it. But a translation is just an echo - God didn't reveal these things in English, he did it in Hebrew.
I don't know if it's more about reading carefully enough or again, context and interpretation. Genesis 2:17 -- "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." What did God mean by "die?" Didn't God curse Adam with both physical AND spiritual death? Can't we conclude Adam's act affected all of God's original plan -- and that death begat all His Creation? Pork chops and steak weren't eaten until after the fall. So, what is your interpretation or belief about "Death" as per scripture?
Some Christians become stubborn and don't like seeing the femininity of God ALSO right there in Genesis, particularly the femininity of the Holy Spirit. That is disturbing, because it's not the Christian tradition. No Bible scholar am I, but frankly, the concept wasn't "strange" or the ends "loose" until now :-) The reason it's disturbing is that it feeds into pagan concepts of Mother Earth and "Goddesses." I'll have to further examine your thesis, Vic, because I've never heard of your translation related to in gender terms other than "God the Father." We have the Father, Son...and yes, "Holy Spirit." Of note: Man (Adam) was created first; Jesus (the Father's Son, in His place) also male. I hope Mary doesn't play into this equation somehow.
LOL sorry thought everyone knew. The same Rangers and Cowboys threads etc.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12)
There is no demand to acknowledge Jesus as personal savior. What Jesus SAID was "follow me" and "do as I say" and "you will be judged by your deeds" and "nobody comes to the Father except through me". So, let's be clear: Jesus' deal, his judgment, is going to be personal to each person. None of us has been appointed the judge of the world, or guardian of it, or bearer of its weight. We've each been charged to look after ourselves and our immediate family, firstly, primordially. The formula demanding a particular mouthing of belief isn't in the Bible at all. It's a doctrine of a Church that seeks to answer the question "What about all those others", and it leads to an answer that isn't true. And it's irrelevant anyway. You're going to be judged on what YOU do. So, whether you mouth that Jesus is personal savior or not isn't going to HELP you if you don't do as he said. Now, the notion that the Law is too hard to follow is also wrong. Gentiles, like you and me, NEVER were under the JEWISH law at all. We ARE under the law of Jesus. What HE said was that if you murder people, engage in sexual immorality, engage in pharmakeia, traffic in lies and fraud, worship idols or are a coward he rejects you and will throw you in the fire. He does forgive those who slip - but he said that he only forgives them TO THE EXTENT that THEY are forgiving of other men for the sins other men do. So, Jesus has a high standard, but it is not impossible to keep. If you slip, you're on your way to the lake of fire...BUT there's still a save for you: you'll be forgiven IF you're forgiving. If you forgive others the evils they do you and turn the other cheek and let it go, then Jesus will let it go, but if you refuse to do that, if you are proud and arrogant, you are establishing the standard of your own judgment. Since you'll probably slip on something, if you're not forgiving, you're not going to enter the City because YOU set a rule of harsh and condemnatory judgment which you, then, will experience yourself. Some Christians have taught the doctrine that Jesus forgives everything if you believe he was the Son of God and that his sacrifice forgave all sin. That's a wonderful doctrine, but it isn't what Jesus SAID. In fact, he said things pretty baleful for those who cry "Lord, Lord!" but who don't DO what he said to do. And he asked, quite testily: "What good does it do you to say you follow me if you do not keep my commandments?" Christians like to throw up that Torah list of laws and say they're off the hook for that. This is a false doctrine. It is ILLITERATE. Read the Torah: who does it apply to: HEBREWS, who were THERE. And what was promised? A farm in Israel. Nowhere in the Old Testament does God EVER ONCE promise the Hebrews "Eternal Life" or anything like it if they follow his laws. He promises them a farm in Israel and security during life - that's IT. So, the whole business about being "relieved of the burden of the Law" is a red herring. Sure, JEWS like Peter and Paul and the Apostles and early disciples were relieved of the Law, but they were JEWS. Gentiles like you and me, though, were never under the Law in the first place. If we placed ourselves under it and did it all, it wouldn't give us eternal life, because God never PROMISED eternal life in exchange. It would give us a farm in Israel while we lived, and nothing more (and then only if enough of the rest of the community also obeyed). So when we see all of the JEWISH anguish over "The Law" in the Gospels and Epistles, we need to remember that none of that has one thing to do with us. We were never under the law in the first place, and adherence to the law never promised eternal life. For us, it's easier: what are JESUS' Commandments. Jesus' sacrifice does NOT release us from obeying THOSE. He'll forgive us our past sins, but if we keep on sinning - with sin defined as what Jesus said would damn us - then we'd better be FORGIVING OF MEN, because if we're not, we're dead. Up in Scotland there were some hard-bitten leaders who "did not suffer a witch to live". They enforced, in the 1500s and 1600s, a law given to ISRAELITES, never Gentiles, and burnt 20,000 witches. They were harsh and unforgiving and very Christians, and they very probably will all be thrown into the lake of fire because they committed MURDER (God never once authorized GENTILES to kill witches - the Torah was EXCLUSIVELY for Hebrews under the Covenant - that the Jews were given the right to kill the Canaanites does NOT mean that the English were given ANY right to go kill the Welsh to take their land), so that's one strike against them. They did it on the basis of a law that did not apply, so they lied and twisted Scripture to authorize them to do evil. Strike two. And, having captured sinners, they were harsh and judgmental and unforgiving. Strike three. They committed murder, deceit and their own form of idolatry by putting people into the fire, and they were unforgiving, and Jesus - on the standards he stated - will probably throw them all into the fire. They will say "But we prophesied in your name!" And he will say "Into the fire, you evildoers". Being a "Christian" does not get you out of the fire. You have to be good, and if you're not, you have to be forgiving. Those are JESUS' terms, and Christians don't get to make up a doctrine that contradicts him and makes his blood more powerful than his own commandments at forgiving them from doing whatever the Hell they please. This is all obvious on the text. So, circling back to us. Do we murder, lie, commit sexual immorality, indulge in pharmakeia or idolatry? Are we cowards? If yes, then STOP IT. When we converted, all before was forgiven, but sins since are not forgiven so easily. Now we have to ask for forgiveness from God, and we have to temper ourselves to be very forgiving of others. And until we've done all that, we had best not waste our time looking over the hedge to cluck at what is in somebody else's mind, because we are so obviously lost ourselves that nothing very useful will come out of our mouths. After all, those "Christians" burning Scottish witches thought they were purifying their land, but really they were just murderous assholes condemning themselves to hell, and committing crimes against humanity that have made people ever since disgusted with Christians and Christian religion - their crimes and evil barred the bridge to others by making Christ disgusting. We still here today about all of the crimes of Christians in their Churches, and those accusations are JUST. Christians need to take care of their own gardens first. And be forgiving. That's load enough.
I'm...somewhat...willing to do it, to show the template and the language and the facts. BUT I'm not willing to generate heat, or take abuse for it. If there must be heat and abuse, then I'd rather leave that scroll sealed, because it doesn't ultimately MATTER to the final disposition of the spirits of people - what one believes about creation is not on the list of things that Jesus said would get one thrown into the lake of fire. I always appreciate your honesty, effort, and sincerity -- even if we don't happen see eye to eye. What IS important is the bottom line of Salvation, true... That said, opening the Vic Scrolls is entirely up to you. Protestants are more heavily invested in Genesis because it happens to provide the foundation for the rest of Scripture. Genesis sez God's Creation took exactly 6 Days. He rested on the seventh. I don't know if there's much to debate other than whether one believes Genesis' Creation is an allegory, believes "one day" is figurative, or chooses to believe some parts of Genesis, but not others.
They were not supposed to be eaten until after the Flood.
I've seen much of what you have to say on this subject. I don't think the Christians here will start a flame war. I'm up for it.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12)
Good question. Adam lived for hundreds of years after he ate the fruit, so if we take the English translation literally: "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Did God change his mind? Did Adam die, or didn't he, on the day that he ate of the tree? The Hebrew verbs make a difference here. The way this has been translated, God changes his mind, doesn't do what he said he was going to do. Either that, or something DID die, but it wasn't Adam's body. The Hebrew partially answers the question - and in the process demonstrates that whole translation issue front and center. The Hebrew imperfect verb tense does not translate well into English. The Hebrew says merely that in the day that Adam eats it, he WILL die - which can be understood as "he will BEGIN to die", or he will eventually die. So, in the Hebrew, death means his physical death. And indeed, when we read the genealogies, we see the antediluvian patriarchs all dying. "And he died." So, in the Hebrew of the Old Testament, death is physical death, and God does not reveal life after death and resurrection until very late in the prophets (with increasing clarity in the books that the Protestants don't accept as canonical). This is why the Sadduccees did not believe in the resurrection or life after death. Remember: the Sadduccees were the hereditary priests. Nobody was closer too or more consistently bathed in Hebrew Scripture than they were, their whole lives (Pharisees were not priests), and yet THEY did not see the resurrection or eternal life in the Hebrew Scriptures at all. The Pharisees saw resurrection in their. It's JESUS who gives a new meaning to "death", when speaking of people reputed dead, such as Abraham and Isaac, and says that God is the God of the LIVING, when referring to them. He also refers to those who are dead (physically) as having fallen asleep. So it's with Jesus - who is the one who promises eternal life and resurrection (not the Torah) - that the veil is peeled back and we begin to see that after physical death, the spirit lives, and that the spirit IS the person. But Jesus doesn't give this to us in nice scientific terms.
That is true. But consider this. Psalm 11:3King James Version (KJV) 3 If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do? The religion of evolution seeks to destroys the foundation of the Bible. The story of Adam and Eve. The reason Jesus came. So if someone believes in evolution and tries to take the Bible literally. Then they see a conflict. If they then believe in evolution. It makes it more likely they will not believe the Bible. We have to restore the foundation. Genesis. Because if it is under attack and not to be taken literally. Then why would they believe in Jesus if he came because of something that Adam and Eve, which they believe to be fiction. That is one of the reasons I see it as important. There is somewhere in the Bible that says you have to preach to the greeks different then the Jews. Because the Jews had a a foundation in the Bible and the greeks didn't. So you have to reach different people with different methods. So if you destroy the lie of evolution, many people will have the door opened to possibly seeing the light of Gods word found in the Bible.
The death that God said would surely come over Adam and Eve it they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. So because there was no physical death before that time. Natural selection would be incompatible because you would have Adam and Eve standing on a pile of bones of dead things.
It was a load, but enjoyable load to read. Plenty to consider that I'll expound upon when my battery isn't so low. For now my commentary will be on the following related bits of you dissertation... "IF you're forgiving. If you forgive others the evils they do you and turn the other cheek and let it go, then Jesus will let it go, but if you refuse to do that, if you are proud and arrogant, you are establishing the standard of your own judgment....For us, it's easier: what are JESUS' Commandments. Jesus' sacrifice does NOT release us from obeying THOSE. He'll forgive us our past sins, but if we keep on sinning - with sin defined as what Jesus said would damn us - then we'd better be FORGIVING OF MEN, because if we're not, we're dead." Two themes are struck: Lack of "Forgiveness" and continued "sinning." The end result of which will be Judgement by our own standard. Vic, IF we as fallible sinners are not capable of quelling sin 100%, where does that leave us? Answer: As sinners. Period. ONE SIN, TWO SINS, 100 SINS, 1000 SINS. You are NOT leaving this world without a tab. Neither am I. So either the Blood of Jesus for Believers meant...EVERYTHING or NOTHING. Which is it?? That said, this isn't to discount the importance of good deeds and forgiveness either. I'm now going to back up the WIDE LOAD truck and re-quote you: "So, let's be clear: Jesus' deal, his judgment, is going to be personal to each person. None of us has been appointed the judge of the world, or guardian of it, or bearer of its weight. Yes, I'm going with your "Jesus deal" as a consideration because ONLY the Lord knows our unique, respective heart, road, trial, and tribulations. The kid in Sri Lanka can't possibly be judged the same as the guy in Seattle; OR, the girl in Galilee, 5 B.C. with the Jew in Jerusalem 2014 A.D. Same with the Catholic sinner in CT and Baptist sinner in Jersey. Do we murder, lie, commit sexual immorality, indulge in pharmakeia or idolatry? Are we cowards? If yes, then STOP IT. When we converted, all before was forgiven, but sins since are not forgiven so easily. Now we have to ask for forgiveness from God, and we have to temper ourselves to be very forgiving of others. And until we've done all that, we had best not waste our time looking over the hedge to cluck at what is in somebody else's mind, because we are so obviously lost ourselves that nothing very useful will come out of our mouths. Of course we can't continue to indulge routinely in your above sins...especially and importantly, without repentance. I know you don't agree with me here, but through my belief in the Blood of Jesus Christ, I *know* I am the Lord's. Far from perfect, a wretched sinner, a liar, holds grudges, lusts, hates, etc. Yes, sins ARE forgiven. Through the grace of Jesus Christ. Thus I am NOT condemned. I will ask and pray for mercy and strength from the Holy Spirit to repel contain my sins and repent when I am weak (which frankly is often.) Here's the primary problem with Catholicism and your perspective and criteria for reaching Heaven: In practice...IT. IS. AN. IMPOSSIBLE. STANDARD. This standard is what causes many Catholics or potential Christians to TOTALLY give up on maintaining ANY standard, surrender ALL hope, and toss their hands up in futility and frustration. The thought process (infused by Satan) is..."See? You can't meet God's ridiculous standard, so GIVE UP!" And guess what? They DO give up completely. I know such people. They become narcissists who ignore the soul, caring only about satisfying the flesh since Heaven (they've been told) is such a long shot. Merely eating, drinking, and being merry...until they die, as they readily accept their inevitably swan dive into Lake Hell. Speaking of "forgiveness," why does the RCC insist that ONLY clergy can act as intermediary between man and God? Where in Scripture is it written that we become sin-less the moment man exits that Confessional Box? Were the sins on that tab REALLY erased after muttering a few Hail Marys and Our Fathers, and Act of Contrition as "penance"? Because of this, do you want to know what my first and only thoughts after swinging wide the doors open from the Church afterward? "Gee -- IF I get hit by a bus RIGHT NOW, I'm in Heaven!!"
Was it? And then after that, not even pork chops ;-)
We have to restore the foundation. Genesis. Because if it is under attack and not to be taken literally. Then why would they believe in Jesus if he came because of something that Adam and Eve, which they believe to be fiction. That is one of the reasons I see it as important. Hear ya, Stoney.
So it's with Jesus - who is the one who promises eternal life and resurrection (not the Torah) - that the veil is peeled back and we begin to see that after physical death, the spirit lives, and that the spirit IS the person. But Jesus doesn't give this to us in nice scientific terms. Onboard, Vic.
We should not only observe the words of Christ but His actions of mercy, kindness and longsuffering. The Greatest act of all being crucified for the ransom of many. Matthew 20: 27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: 28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. Which as Christ's ministry moves toward Calvary, He reveals more to His disciples His mission on earth: Luke 9: 22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day. 23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. Also here: John 3: 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. After the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ we have this: Luke 24: 46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And ye are witnesses of these things. 49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high. And as Christ said the disciples were witnesses to these things, we see the faithful transmission of the above Gospel message: From Peter: 1 Peter 1: 18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Which also Paul confirms all the apostles preached the same Gospel: 1 Corinthians 15: Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed. The above is what Jesus Christ commanded the disciples to proclaim, and the above is what the disciples proclaimed, preached and taught. So yes according to the NT the Blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:7) Jesus and His apostles also emphasized firmly that those who follow Christ must walk in His ways. We who believe, trust have faith must be faithful and we are called to holiness. And of course God did not keep us out there flapping in the wind. He promised the Holy Spirit, and delivered on the promise starting at Pentecost.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12)
Prior to Vatican II Beatnik metrosexuals revisionist history, it was "Holy Ghost" masculine. Yes. The ones not saved.
For Hebrews, if they wanted the farm in Egypt. Pork chops have been fine for my line all the back to the Flood. The Law of Moses, on its own terms, was a covenant between YHWH and the Hebrews there in the Sinai and their circumcised lineal descendants. And the covenant was: Do this, and you'll get a secure farm in Israel. I didn't have any relatives standing there in the Sinai, I'm not an heir to that covenant, and God never promised me and my folks anything for not eating pork. So ever since God told Noah and his sons they could eat any animals, it's been licit for me and my line to eat pork. The Torah after about Genesis 11 never applied to them (and by extension me) either before or after Jesus, and probably didn't apply to you and your'n either.
Read Revelation again and look at whom Jesus was warning. It was a letter addressed to the CHURCHES. The recipients of this letter, being told by Jesus they would be judged by their deeds, where all Christians and Christian Churches. Christians are judged by the deeds, and the standards that Christ set are high, that is true. And Christ set the standard, too, when men fall short. He did not say that it was all covered by his death, not at all. Rather, he said that if YOU want to be forgiven by God for the sins YOU have committed against HIM, YOU have to forgive other men the sins they commit against you. The Lord's prayer itself establishes this standard, and we're always asking God to apply it: "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." There is a strain of theology that essentially sets everything Jesus said aside and says that it's all about the blood. It's an interesting theory, but it isn't based on what Christ SAID, and after all, HE was God, not the Christian theologians. So I'll stick with Christ on this one: what you do matters, there's a (short) list of "Don't dos". Once you find Christ and are baptized, your past sins are indeed completely washed away. But if you commit new sins after that, then you've got to ask God for forgiveness, and he will forgive you TO THE EXTENT THAT you forgive other men their sins. We ask for this very standard every time we say the Lord's prayer, so if we don't really MEAN "Lord, forgive me my sins against you to the extent that I forgive the sins of other men against me", then we should stop saying it.
In Hebrew, the Spirit of God is feminine singular. Ruach is a feminine singular word. It is not masculine. Genesis through Malachi is written in Hebrew, with the feminine spirit, not English. It is what was inspired by God. In Greek, Ruach is translated as "Pneuma", - Spirit - Pneuma Hagion - the Holy Spirit. Pneuma in Greek is neuter. Pneuma was translated into Latin as "Spiritus", which is a masculine word, in Latin. But now we're two translations removed from the inspired autograph. God inspired the Scripture to contain the feminine Spirit. In Hebrew and in Aramaic, the language of the Jews and of Jesus in the Galilee, "spirit" and "Holy spirit" are feminine. In Greek transcription, this is the neuter pneuma. It only becomes masculine in Latin, two translations away from the original inspired words. The Spirit of God is feminine singular in most of the inspired Scriptures, and neuter in the rest. Translations are echoes. They are not themselves inspired. The gender of the "Spiritu Sancto" in Latin is masculine, and the masculine pronouns have passed into English. That's nice, but the Scripture is the inspired word of God, and when God spoke of God's spirit, God used the feminine. So the Holy Spirit IS feminine, whether the Latins and English- speakers like it or not. (The only reason to DISLIKE that, given that God says outright on the sixth day that in Elohiym's image he made them male and female, is because of a desire to cling to tradition. Here, the tradition is erroneous, contrary to something very obvious in the Scripture. The tradition needs to be chucked. In Latin, the Holy Spirit is a he because of grammar. But in English, there is no gender of nouns. One can follow the Greek neuter and call the Holy Spirit IT, but if one is going to personify the Holy Spirit, then she is a SHE, not a HE, in the Bible anyway. Why resist the Bible?)
I'm not going to talk about the Catholic Church, only Scripture.
Thought I would share. A man who I think fully understood God's Holiness, Law and how lacking he was. He was also a man God said was a man after His Heart. Psalm 51 King James Version (KJV) 51 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. 2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. 3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. 4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. 5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. 6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. 7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. 8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. 9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. 13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee. 14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness. 15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise. 16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. 17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. 18 Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem. 19 Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12)
Is that Gilligan from Gilligan's Island?
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12)
No, it's Maynard G. Krebs from the show Dobie Gillis. Gilligan was a beatnik before that three hour tour.
Do you believe that you have to be baptized to be saved? If so what do you base that on sir?
"Fraud"?? "Death"? Sorry, not following that supposition. Putting myself in the place of the Apostles.....with my life literally being threatened by a horrible, painful death and all I have to do is say "it was all make believe" and I'd get to live? But they didn't say that, none of them did. If it were me, and the whole Jesus story was made up in part BY me, I would have confessed in order to save my own skin. Not one of those guys did that. That tells me a lot.
Not one of those guys did that. That tells me a lot. Very good point that I had never considered.
I'm surprised meggy hasn't demanded the heads of all "intolerants". Or will that be coming later?
“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”
But they didn't say that, none of them did. Aaah, ok. Thanks for the clarification, 4gi. Really hard sometimes to understand context and gists in posts. I don't think the apostles wanted to die...but it was easier to do so than deny God and Jesus. Look at all the Middle Eastern Christians doing the same, and accepting their beheading fate rather than denying Christ instead of converting. True martyrs. If it were me, and the whole Jesus story was made up in part BY me, I would have confessed in order to save my own skin. Not one of those guys did that. That tells me a lot. Well yes -- maybe in the "Save-My-Own-Skin" mode you're in at the moment you can't quite relate. But when push came/comes to shove, you just might surprise yourself and take the bullet at the moment of truth. When you "shook the dust from your sandals" at LP, you did it reflexively without even thinking. You knew it was the ONLY thing to do. When the moment of truth arrives, IF it arrives in our lifetime, many of us may have to make that same decision. I know some may chuckle at that notion, but we ARE in the last days in my opinion (and I know Spot agrees with me.)
Homo-San would add "intolerants" to his list of "homophobes" and "haters." AS he and his warped hypocritical ilk order the mass Waffen-SS style executions. Think about this for a moment -- to the Homos, the Fascist Left, militant Atheists....AND Muslims, WE are considered "infidels."
Lol...As opposed to "Gilligan" from LP?? As hondo confirmed, this "Gilligan" is Maynard Krebs from Dobie Gillis (those of us old enough to remember.) As to "Gilligan" from Gilligan's Island, can someone tell me how HE wasn't gay in that show? Mary-Ann and Ginger were all over him...and yet, it wuz all he could do to avoid those smooches and quickly run back to the Skipper (no, NOT H'up)
Matthew 20: 27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: 28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.... Luke 24: 46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem... 1 Corinthians 15: Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. Worthy of further contemplation. Moreover, we need to bear in mind that not only are the Gospels a definitive authority of instruction of faithfulness, holiness, addressing sin and the redemptive reason for Christ's death...but also the Epistles. Paul wields as the same authority as he speaks on behalf Jesus on all matters -- including the subject of "ransom."
Comments (100 - 132) not displayed.
Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestIF -- as Genesis tells us - we indeed believe that there was "NO DEATH" before the sin of Adam and Eve,
#60. To: CZ82, calcon (#54)
Tater/Gatlin at this very moment:
#61. To: Liberator (#28)
If your reservations are about "Dating" methodology -- especially the bread and butter of Old Earthers -- Carbon-14 dating
#62. To: CZ82, Vicomte13 (#55)
Oh no I've been outed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
#63. To: Vicomte13, A K A Stone (#57)
#64. To: Vicomte13 (#56)
As well you should. The deity, Elohiym, is female, and male, both. YHWH is masculine. The Holy Spirit and the Glory of God are feminine. Jesus is masculine.
#65. To: Liberator (#51)
You seem to be validating Genesis 6-Day Creation -- correct me if I'm wrong. If so, how are Creationists "wrong about the exact timeline"?
#66. To: Vicomte13 (#58)
Test #1: Did we ask for and accept the blood of Jesus Christ as ransom for our sins?
#67. To: Liberator (#64)
As well you should. The deity, Elohiym, is female, and male, both. YHWH is masculine. The Holy Spirit and the Glory of God are feminine. Jesus is masculine. Never heard of this.
#68. To: Vicomte13 (#59)
If we believe that Genesis tells us that [No Death before Adam's sin], then we are not reading carefully enough. Genesis doesn't say that.
#69. To: Vicomte13 (#67)
This [Masculine/Feminine Godhood] should be a source of joy, because all of a sudden all sorts of strange and messy loose ends in Scripture make sense, and we realize that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all right there in the very first SENTENCE of Genesis. Indeed, it's pretty obvious when one looks at the words, the plurals. It's easy to see the Trinity, and Christians love to see this.
#70. To: CZ82 (#55)
#71. To: Liberator (#66)
"Final judgment is not a science test but a morals and deeds test." Well, we are sinners even though that IS true. Do the "morals and deeds" tests trump considerations acknowledging Jesus as my personal Savior?
#72. To: Vicomte13 (#65)
It's very comforting to me to see this. The Catholic Church doesn't really CARE. But it's GOING to cause anguish to some Protestants who have invested a lot in the subject, because even though the outcome is that, yes, the world really is only a few thousand years old, some of the key arguments that Protestants use are actually quite wrong, and they're wrong on SCRIPTURE. They're taking ENGLISH and making assumptions, but they have to take Hebrew and pictographs instead, to actually get the template.
#73. To: Liberator (#68)
Pork chops and steak weren't eaten until after the fall.
#74. To: Vicomte13, A K A Stone, liberator (#65)
So, those who really love philosophy, theology, history, science, language and truth might enjoy the read. I'm really hesitant to start posting over here and to get in an hellacious fight with my fellow Christians on the first day. I'd rather clean out the garage or get my teeth cleaned than that.
#75. To: Liberator (#68)
What did God mean by "die?"
#76. To: Vicomte13 (#65)
what one believes about creation is not on the list of things that Jesus said would get one thrown into the lake of fire.
#77. To: Vicomte13 (#57)
What is "death"? Jesus said that God is the God of the living, and spoke of those whose bodies had died as nevertheless living.
#78. To: Vicomte13 (#71)
#79. To: Vicomte13 (#73)
They [Pork chops and burgers] were not supposed to be eaten until after the Flood.
#80. To: A K A Stone (#76)
The religion of evolution seeks to destroys the foundation of the Bible. The story of Adam and Eve. The reason Jesus came. So if someone believes in evolution and tries to take the Bible literally. Then they see a conflict. If they then believe in evolution. It makes it more likely they will not believe the Bible.
#81. To: Vicomte13 (#75)
It's JESUS who gives a new meaning to "death", when speaking of people reputed dead, such as Abraham and Isaac, and says that God is the God of the LIVING, when referring to them. He also refers to those who are dead (physically) as having fallen asleep.
#82. To: Liberator (#66)
Regarding "human tradition" not being "quite right," I agree with you -- which is coincidentally what many Protestants find objectionable about the RCC rites, creeds, and Marian addenda. In THIS case, my assertion of "accepting the blood of Jesus Christ as ransom for my sins" may not be scriptural verbatim, but the interpretive context is the same when I acknowledge Jesus' words to He and the Father.
#83. To: Vicomte13, Vatican 2 Beatniks (#56)
(Edited)
The Holy Spirit and the Glory of God are feminine.
The D&R terrorists hate us because we're free, to vote second party
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul
#84. To: Vicomte13 (#58)
says that men will be judged by their DEEDS
#85. To: Liberator (#79)
And then after that, not even pork chops ;-)
#86. To: A K A Stone (#84)
(Edited)
Yes. The ones not saved.
#87. To: hondo68 (#83)
Prior to Vatican II Beatnik metrosexuals revisionist history, it was "Holy Ghost" masculine.
#88. To: Liberator (#78)
why does the RCC insist
#89. To: Liberator (#78)
repentance
#90. To: hondo68 (#83)
#91. To: redleghunter (#90)
Is that Gilligan from Gilligan's Island?
The D&R terrorists hate us because we're free, to vote second party
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul
#92. To: Vicomte13 (#86)
Once you find Christ and are baptized, your past sins are indeed completely washed away. But if you commit new sins after that, then you've got to ask God for forgiveness, and he will forgive you TO THE EXTENT THAT you forgive other men their sins.
#93. To: Liberator (#35)
You tell me that all I have to do is cop to a fraud and I will NOT get tortured to death?
#94. To: 4 givan 1 (#93)
If it were me, and the whole Jesus story was made up in part BY me, I would have confessed in order to save my own skin.
#95. To: Liberator (#62)
#96. To: 4 givan 1, out damned spot (#93)
Putting myself in the place of the Apostles.....with my life literally being threatened by a horrible, painful death and all I have to do is say "it was all make believe" and I'd get to live?
#97. To: CZ82, redleghunter (#95)
I'm surprised meggy hasn't demanded the heads of all "intolerants". Or will that be coming later?
#98. To: redleghunter, hondo68, CZ82 (#90)
Is that Gilligan from Gilligan's Island?
#99. To: Redleghunter, Vicomte13 (#82)
We should not only observe the words of Christ but His actions of mercy, kindness and longsuffering. The Greatest act of all being crucified for the ransom of many.
After the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ we have this:
Which also Paul confirms all the apostles preached the same Gospel:
.
.
.
[Home] [Headlines] [Latest Articles] [Latest Comments] [Post] [Mail] [Sign-in] [Setup] [Help] [Register]