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I'm here for the moneuy Status: Not Logged In; Sign In Creationism/Evolution See other Creationism/Evolution Articles Title: Pope Francis says Big Bang theory and evolution 'compatible with divine Creator' Source: telegraph.co.uk URL Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor ... tible-with-divine-Creator.html Published: Oct 28, 2014 Author: By Nick Squires Post Date: 2014-10-28 13:42:04 by Ferret Mike Keywords: None Views: 62099 Comments: 132 Theory universe born in cosmic explosion 13.7 billion years ago 'doesn't contradict' divine Creator but 'demands it', says pontiff The theory of the Big Bang is compatible with the Catholic Church's teaching on creation and belief in both is possible, Pope Francis has said. The Pope insisted that God was responsible for the Big Bang, from which all life then evolved. The Big Bang - the theory that the universe was born in a cosmic explosion about 13.7 billion years ago and has expanded and evolved since - "doesn't contradict the intervention of a divine Creator, but demands it," the Pope said. The beginning of the world was not "the work of chaos" but part of a divine plan by the Creator, he said. The Jesuit Pope made the remarks during an address to a meeting of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, which gathered at the Vatican to discuss "Evolving Concepts of Nature". "Evolution in nature is not inconsistent with the notion of creation, because evolution requires the creation of beings that evolve," he told the meeting. God should not be regarded as some sort of "magician", waving a magic wand, he said. "When we read about creation in Genesis, we run the risk of imagining God was a magician, with a magic wand able to do everything. But that is not so," he said. "He created human beings and let them develop according to the internal laws that He gave to each one so they would reach fulfilment." The Pope's remarks were in line with Catholic Church teaching of the last few decades. As far back as 1950, Pope Pius XII said that there was no intrinsic conflict between Catholic doctrine and the theory of evolution, provided that Catholics believed that the human soul was created by God and not the result of random evolutionary forces. That stance was affirmed in 1996 by Pope John Paul II. "The Pope's declaration is significant," said Giovanni Bignami, the president of Italy's National Institute for Astrophysics. "We are the descendants of the Big Bang, which created the universe. You just have to think that in our blood we have a few litres of hydrogen, which was created by the Big Bang 13.7 billion years ago. "Our blood is red because it contains iron, which was created by the explosion of a star millions and millions of years ago. Out of creation came evolution." Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread   Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 66. #48. To: (#0) This isn't really NEW. The Church's position regarding evolution has been that it isn't incompatible with Catholic faith as long as one acknowledges the ultimate creator, and that man originally sinned. In the frontspiece to my 1978 edition of the New American Bible was an essay that included the language "No well educated person any longer disputes that man has descended from primates" and that we are to understand Genesis 1 as an allegory. Being a scientist by training and mindset, I found that position to be good: it made it possible for me to BE a Christian at all, of the Catholic variety. It is only with direct encounters with the divine that my eyes were opened to the rather more radical reality of God not as simply the organizing principle of the universe, but as a thinking person, and angels (and demons) as real beings. THAT provoked a complete rethink on my part, but nothing SHORT OF that would have ever done it, at least not for me. Obviously Pope Francis has never spoken directly with God or has his face grabbed by angels and such. (I also note that later editions of the NAB have significantly toned down that rather obnoxious and dismissive language in the frontspiece, and not longer suggests that people like me, who have come to realize that Genesis 1 is a whole lot more than a poem or an allegory, am not well-educated.) Catholic schools have taught basic evolution, not creationism, in science class for decades. The caveat (I didn't go to Catholic school, but had a Catholic biology prof) was simple: after going through evolution, and going through the medieval belief in spontaneous generation and demonstrating how spontaneous generation has been disproven and discarded, the prof made the simple point that spontaneous generation had been discarded as the basis of life...except at the origin of life. Well, having just seen all the reasons why spontaneous generation was not viable - to then have all of life itself suddenly hang upon spontaneous generation is obviously not intellectually viable either, especially when one considers that decaying meat and plantlife already have all of the amino acids for life already pre-formed in them, so even with all of the elements for life RIGHT THERE, life still doesn't spontaneously generate from dead things. To have it spontaneously generate, then, from disorganized atoms - well, THAT'S a beaut. What Pope Francis said isn't anything new. And maybe it will bring eyes like mine were to focus on the Church and find out they can walk with THIS form of Christianity. Unfortunately, evolution isn't TRUE, so unless God reaches down and grabs THEIR faces too, I don't know how the step to the actual TRUTH of the matter is closed. But I don't think it really ultimately matters either. Final judgment is not a science test but a morals and deeds test. And it isn't as though the Christian creationists are perfectly right in their theories either. THEY don't read the verb tenses of Creation right. Stuff wasn't CREATED on day X, it BEGAN TO BE created, on day X, and that's a key difference. (And it wasn't actually CREATED on any of those days, it was made substantial. FIRST it was created in the head of the Elohiym, then it began to be unfolded in 3D. That's really what Genesis 1 SAYS, but you cannot see that unless you leave off English and read the Hebrew and the ancient pictographs. So, truth be told, EVERYBODY fighting about evolution, on ALL sides, is wrong in some pretty fundamental things. The secularists are wrong: life didn't spontaneously generate. And the creationsts are wrong about the exact timeline. The Catholics are wrong: it's not an allegory or a poem on creation. The right answer: God made it all, on a staccato timeline (that is written into Genesis, but the key question of animal life (which is really the issue): THAT was brought forth quickly, in a couple of days. The piece most scientists are missing is the slowing of the speed of light. Once that is factored into the Standard Theory, there is a lot less time, and without the time, evolution as understood naturalistically simply couldn't happen. But just TRY to have a reasonable talk to correct the record with ANYBODY - Protestant, Catholic, Atheist...what one believes about origins is what one believes about science, and that is probably the central contention in religion today. Science is the "indulgences" of old. Vicomte13  posted on  2014-11-01   9:54:27 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #53. To: Vicomte13 (#48) Final judgment is not a science test but a morals and deeds test. More than that for sure. Test #1: Did we ask for and accept the blood of Jesus Christ as ransom for our sins? I presume our Father's specs will slide down his nose, he'll bite his lip as He peruses our Life File -- despite noting high scores on Tests #2 and #3. Liberator  posted on  2014-11-01   15:29:13 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #58. To: Liberator (#53) Test #1: Did we ask for and accept the blood of Jesus Christ as ransom for our sins? But Scripture does not actually SAY that. What it SAYS is that none come to the Father except through Jesus. That's true. But that does not mean that one must "ask for and accept the blood of Jesus Christ as ransom for our sins". That is the interpretation supplied by human tradition. And it's not quite right. Look at the last page of Scripture, where Jesus himself, enthroned in Heaven, says that men will be judged by their DEEDS, and then lists the deeds that will earn a trip to the lake of fire. Vicomte13  posted on  2014-11-01   16:34:22 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #66. To: Vicomte13 (#58) Test #1: Did we ask for and accept the blood of Jesus Christ as ransom for our sins? But Scripture does not actually SAY that. What it SAYS is that none come to the Father except through Jesus. That's true. But that does not mean that one must "ask for and accept the blood of Jesus Christ as ransom for our sins". That is the interpretation supplied by human tradition. And it's not quite right. Regarding "human tradition" not being "quite right," I agree with you -- which is coincidentally what many Protestants find objectionable about the RCC rites, creeds, and Marian addenda. In THIS case, my assertion of "accepting the blood of Jesus Christ as ransom for my sins" may not be scriptural verbatim, but the interpretive context is the same when I acknowledge Jesus' words to He and the Father. Look at the last page of Scripture, where Jesus himself, enthroned in Heaven, says that men will be judged by their DEEDS, and then lists the deeds that will earn a trip to the lake of fire. Let's assume you're right on the swan dive into the Lake of Fire... You've asserted, "Final judgment is not a science test but a morals and deeds test." Well, we are sinners even though that IS true. Do the "morals and deeds" tests trump considerations acknowledging Jesus as my personal Savior? Liberator  posted on  2014-11-01   17:10:15 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   Replies to Comment # 66. #71. To: Liberator (#66) "Final judgment is not a science test but a morals and deeds test." Well, we are sinners even though that IS true. Do the "morals and deeds" tests trump considerations acknowledging Jesus as my personal Savior? There is no demand to acknowledge Jesus as personal savior. What Jesus SAID was "follow me" and "do as I say" and "you will be judged by your deeds" and "nobody comes to the Father except through me". So, let's be clear: Jesus' deal, his judgment, is going to be personal to each person. None of us has been appointed the judge of the world, or guardian of it, or bearer of its weight. We've each been charged to look after ourselves and our immediate family, firstly, primordially. The formula demanding a particular mouthing of belief isn't in the Bible at all. It's a doctrine of a Church that seeks to answer the question "What about all those others", and it leads to an answer that isn't true. And it's irrelevant anyway. You're going to be judged on what YOU do. So, whether you mouth that Jesus is personal savior or not isn't going to HELP you if you don't do as he said. Now, the notion that the Law is too hard to follow is also wrong. Gentiles, like you and me, NEVER were under the JEWISH law at all. We ARE under the law of Jesus. What HE said was that if you murder people, engage in sexual immorality, engage in pharmakeia, traffic in lies and fraud, worship idols or are a coward he rejects you and will throw you in the fire. He does forgive those who slip - but he said that he only forgives them TO THE EXTENT that THEY are forgiving of other men for the sins other men do. So, Jesus has a high standard, but it is not impossible to keep. If you slip, you're on your way to the lake of fire...BUT there's still a save for you: you'll be forgiven IF you're forgiving. If you forgive others the evils they do you and turn the other cheek and let it go, then Jesus will let it go, but if you refuse to do that, if you are proud and arrogant, you are establishing the standard of your own judgment. Since you'll probably slip on something, if you're not forgiving, you're not going to enter the City because YOU set a rule of harsh and condemnatory judgment which you, then, will experience yourself. Some Christians have taught the doctrine that Jesus forgives everything if you believe he was the Son of God and that his sacrifice forgave all sin. That's a wonderful doctrine, but it isn't what Jesus SAID. In fact, he said things pretty baleful for those who cry "Lord, Lord!" but who don't DO what he said to do. And he asked, quite testily: "What good does it do you to say you follow me if you do not keep my commandments?" Christians like to throw up that Torah list of laws and say they're off the hook for that. This is a false doctrine. It is ILLITERATE. Read the Torah: who does it apply to: HEBREWS, who were THERE. And what was promised? A farm in Israel. Nowhere in the Old Testament does God EVER ONCE promise the Hebrews "Eternal Life" or anything like it if they follow his laws. He promises them a farm in Israel and security during life - that's IT. So, the whole business about being "relieved of the burden of the Law" is a red herring. Sure, JEWS like Peter and Paul and the Apostles and early disciples were relieved of the Law, but they were JEWS. Gentiles like you and me, though, were never under the Law in the first place. If we placed ourselves under it and did it all, it wouldn't give us eternal life, because God never PROMISED eternal life in exchange. It would give us a farm in Israel while we lived, and nothing more (and then only if enough of the rest of the community also obeyed). So when we see all of the JEWISH anguish over "The Law" in the Gospels and Epistles, we need to remember that none of that has one thing to do with us. We were never under the law in the first place, and adherence to the law never promised eternal life. For us, it's easier: what are JESUS' Commandments. Jesus' sacrifice does NOT release us from obeying THOSE. He'll forgive us our past sins, but if we keep on sinning - with sin defined as what Jesus said would damn us - then we'd better be FORGIVING OF MEN, because if we're not, we're dead. Up in Scotland there were some hard-bitten leaders who "did not suffer a witch to live". They enforced, in the 1500s and 1600s, a law given to ISRAELITES, never Gentiles, and burnt 20,000 witches. They were harsh and unforgiving and very Christians, and they very probably will all be thrown into the lake of fire because they committed MURDER (God never once authorized GENTILES to kill witches - the Torah was EXCLUSIVELY for Hebrews under the Covenant - that the Jews were given the right to kill the Canaanites does NOT mean that the English were given ANY right to go kill the Welsh to take their land), so that's one strike against them. They did it on the basis of a law that did not apply, so they lied and twisted Scripture to authorize them to do evil. Strike two. And, having captured sinners, they were harsh and judgmental and unforgiving. Strike three. They committed murder, deceit and their own form of idolatry by putting people into the fire, and they were unforgiving, and Jesus - on the standards he stated - will probably throw them all into the fire. They will say "But we prophesied in your name!" And he will say "Into the fire, you evildoers". Being a "Christian" does not get you out of the fire. You have to be good, and if you're not, you have to be forgiving. Those are JESUS' terms, and Christians don't get to make up a doctrine that contradicts him and makes his blood more powerful than his own commandments at forgiving them from doing whatever the Hell they please. This is all obvious on the text. So, circling back to us. Do we murder, lie, commit sexual immorality, indulge in pharmakeia or idolatry? Are we cowards? If yes, then STOP IT. When we converted, all before was forgiven, but sins since are not forgiven so easily. Now we have to ask for forgiveness from God, and we have to temper ourselves to be very forgiving of others. And until we've done all that, we had best not waste our time looking over the hedge to cluck at what is in somebody else's mind, because we are so obviously lost ourselves that nothing very useful will come out of our mouths. After all, those "Christians" burning Scottish witches thought they were purifying their land, but really they were just murderous assholes condemning themselves to hell, and committing crimes against humanity that have made people ever since disgusted with Christians and Christian religion - their crimes and evil barred the bridge to others by making Christ disgusting. We still here today about all of the crimes of Christians in their Churches, and those accusations are JUST. Christians need to take care of their own gardens first. And be forgiving. That's load enough. Vicomte13  posted on  2014-11-01 17:40:23 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #82. To: Liberator (#66) Regarding "human tradition" not being "quite right," I agree with you -- which is coincidentally what many Protestants find objectionable about the RCC rites, creeds, and Marian addenda. In THIS case, my assertion of "accepting the blood of Jesus Christ as ransom for my sins" may not be scriptural verbatim, but the interpretive context is the same when I acknowledge Jesus' words to He and the Father. We should not only observe the words of Christ but His actions of mercy, kindness and longsuffering. The Greatest act of all being crucified for the ransom of many. Matthew 20: 27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: 28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. Which as Christ's ministry moves toward Calvary, He reveals more to His disciples His mission on earth: Luke 9: 22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day. 23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. Also here: John 3: 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. After the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ we have this: Luke 24: 46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And ye are witnesses of these things. 49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high. And as Christ said the disciples were witnesses to these things, we see the faithful transmission of the above Gospel message: From Peter: 1 Peter 1: 18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Which also Paul confirms all the apostles preached the same Gospel: 1 Corinthians 15: Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed. The above is what Jesus Christ commanded the disciples to proclaim, and the above is what the disciples proclaimed, preached and taught. So yes according to the NT the Blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:7) Jesus and His apostles also emphasized firmly that those who follow Christ must walk in His ways. We who believe, trust have faith must be faithful and we are called to holiness. And of course God did not keep us out there flapping in the wind. He promised the Holy Spirit, and delivered on the promise starting at Pentecost. redleghunter  posted on  2014-11-01 18:52:51 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   End Trace Mode for Comment # 66. Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest

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