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Religion
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Title: WOMEN IN MINISTRY
Source: [None]
URL Source: [None]
Published: Jul 28, 2013
Author: rowdee
Post Date: 2013-07-29 00:22:38 by rowdee
Keywords: women, pastors, preachers
Views: 4952
Comments: 17

As I was preparing this position paper I thought it would be a good idea to provide some background, along with the reason for it.

I was raised in the Church of the Nazarene. We always had male pastors. I think this church denomination was a break-off from Methodism and Baptists...I don't remember nor do I much care.

I recall seeing Kathryn Kuhlman on television, though I can't recall actually watching her program, and I know virtually nothing about her. I don't know her denominational association, if any. I recall a female missionary who along with her missionary husband, visiting relatives in our congregation and giving talks about their experiences over in Swaziland.

I recall going to see a Billy Graham revival in Los Angeles, California, as a teenager. He is a Southern Baptist evangelist as I understand.

And, while I've heard of nuns in the Catholic church, I've only known of them as teachers or nurses, or in the last case of any interaction that I specifically am aware of was a nun as the pastoral provider in a Catholic hospital for the dialysis center patients.

I fell away from Christ and all things religious or churchy as a young adult and 'wandered in the wilderness like the Israelites did for so many years.

Christ's light was shone for me in the most unusual way—at least to me. I had moved to where I now reside and the home had a large satellite dish. Without instructions for operating the dish and not a genius with technology, I contacted a local firm and had the man come out to show me how it works.

During his time there, he showed me a satellite channel and station that was on 24/7 that I could use as a guide. As the station appeared, the guy chuckled and talked about the 'nutcase' on the show. I thought the 'nutcase' was a charlatan or one of those 'televangelist' people preying on old folks. Beard, white or silver-haired, not wearing a suit and tie, and smoking a cigar! I wasn't about to watch that nut. It happened that the guy was Dr. Gene Scott.

There were times I'd screw up the satellite operation up and would have to go to that station to get my bearings. While there, I saw some video with horses, so I stayed long enough to see it. My mind was wondering what that old geezer was doing with a bunch of young women. So, I listened for a couple of minutes and then changed channels.

For some reason (probably a lack of channels to view as I wasn't paying for programming at that time), I decided I'd watch him for a few minutes just to see how quickly I could catch him changing or distorting scripture, or at least how I remembered it. And I wanted to see what kind of 'sob story' was his spiel for getting all the money from little old widows.

I didn't catch him in those few minutes, and as time went on, it was necessary to watch a little longer, and then a little longer to catch him. And even longer. But I never did catch him, but I did find myself learning so much more than I ever had a a young person...and from someone who was always admonishing people to 'check it out, check it out for yourself'. But then one day, I listened to his take on the resurrection. Christ changed my life that day.

So, that is the background. I am not a member of any church organization, though I do listen to the teaching/preaching by Pastor Melissa Scott over the internet (t.v., in person, and shortwave radio are also available for world-wide listening) and also a group called Torah Class, which is affiliated with the Seed of Abraham program and is a wonderful learning place for the Old Testament. And there is more at Torah Class than just the Old Testament.

Dr. Scott died and his wife took over the ministry. All hell broke loose.........

This got me to wondering about women in ministry. I've read through the Bible several times and found no admonition against women as ministers, missionaries, evangelists, teachers, deacons, bishops, priests, pastors, presbyters, or any other general or specific titles like bishop, presbyter, deacon, rabbi, priest, nun, or Sunday School teacher...at least not from Jesus Christ, the apostle Paul might be a different matter. Time to search for the truth.

In the Old Testament, God established a priesthood which consisted of men from the Levite tribe. I can only guess as to his reasoning...one being that women in those days were considered property just as sheep and cattle and camels and slaves. It would not have been wise to put a slave or a woman in the Tabernacle because it would be like the pagans with their temples with prostitutes, and His people were to be set apart.

And, I don't believe that everything couldn't be taught to the Israelites all at one time. It was necessary to teach the Israelites a little at a time. Even at that, the Israelite were always trying to adopt pagan idols/rituals, etc.

Nevertheless, there were female leaders mentioned in the scriptures. I will mention below the ones that come easily to mind.

MARIANMarian, Moses sister, was a prophetess.
Exo 15:20 And MiriamH4813 the prophetess,H503

H5031 נביאה neb1y'ah neb-ee-yaw' Feminine of H5030; a prophetess or (generally) inspired woman; by implication a poetess; by association a prophet's wife: - prophetess.

DEBORAH was a prophetess and a judge, and such a respected leader that the big army general, Barack, wouldn't go to battle unless she went with him. He must have felt strongly that God was with her, no doubt thinking that they couldn't lose the battle if this was so.
Jdg 4:4 And Deborah,H1683 a prophetess,H5031 H802 the wifeH802 of Lapidoth,H3941 sheH1931 judgedH8199 (H853) IsraelH3478 at thatH1931 time.H6256

H5031 נביאה neb1y'ah neb-ee-yaw' Feminine of H5030; a prophetess or (generally) inspired woman; by implication a poetess; by association a prophet's wife: - prophetess.

HULDAH was a prophetess. Of such importance that young King Josiah sent the uncovered book to her for inquiry of God.
2Ki 22:14 So HilkiahH2518 the priest,H3548 and Ahikam,H296 and Achbor,H5907 and Shaphan,H8227 and Asahiah,H6222 wentH1980 untoH413 HuldahH2468 the prophetess,H5031 the wifeH802 of ShallumH7967 the sonH1121 of Tikvah,H8616 the sonH1121 of Harhas,H2745 keeperH8104 of the wardrobe;H899 (now sheH1931 dweltH3427 in JerusalemH3389 in the college;)H4932 and they communedH1696 withH413 her.
2Ki 22:15 And she saidH559 untoH413 them, ThusH3541 saithH559 the LORDH3068 GodH430 of Israel,H3478 TellH559 the manH376 thatH834 sentH7971 you toH413 me, 2Ki 22:16 ThusH3541 saithH559 the LORD,H3068 Behold,H2009 I will bringH935 evilH7451 uponH413 thisH2088 place,H4725 and uponH5921 the inhabitantsH3427 thereof, even(H853) allH3605 the wordsH1697 of the bookH5612 whichH834 the kingH4428 of JudahH3063 hath read:H7121

H5031 נביאה neb1y'ah neb-ee-yaw' Feminine of H5030; a prophetess or (generally) inspired woman; by implication a poetess; by association a prophet's wife: - prophetess.


One cannot honestly argue that these women did not impart messages from God to men, as well as women. Huldah reported God's answer to a PRIEST!

And as a Judge, Deborah would have dealt God's words to male and female.

Now on to the New Testament.

Here, we encounter ANNA, a prophetess, who stayed at the temple.
Luk 2:36 AndG2532 there wasG2258 one Anna,G451 a prophetess,G4398 the daughterG2364 of Phanuel,G5323 ofG1537 the tribeG5443 of Aser:G768 sheG3778 was of a great age,G4260 G1722 G4183 G2250 and had livedG2198 withG3326 an husbandG435 sevenG2033 yearsG2094 fromG575 herG848 virginity;G3932
Luk 2:37 AndG2532 sheG3778 was a widowG5503 of aboutG5613 fourscore and fourG3589 G5064 years,G2094 whichG3739 departedG868 notG3756 fromG575 theG3588 temple,G2411 but servedG3000 God with fastingsG3521 andG2532 prayersG1162 nightG3571 andG2532 day.G2250
Luk 2:38 AndG2532 sheG3778 comingG2186 in that instantG846 G5610 gave thanksG437 likewise unto theG3588 Lord,G2962 andG2532 spakeG2980 ofG4012 himG846 to allG3956 them that looked forG4327 redemptionG3085 inG1722 Jerusalem.G2419

G4398
ÀÁ¿Æ·BĹÂ
prophetis
prof-ay'-tis
Feminine of G4396; a female foreteller or an inspired woman: - prophetess.

PRISCILLA who was the wife of Aquila, the couple who taught Apollos more fully about the Lord. It's been suggested Priscilla's name by being mentioned several times before her husband's name seems most likely (at least to me) to be that she was the stronger character.
Act 18:26 AndG5037 heG3778 beganG756 to speak boldlyG3955 inG1722 theG3588 synagogue:G4864(G1161) whomG846 when AquilaG207 andG2532 PriscillaG4252 had heard,G191 they took him untoG4355 G846 them, andG2532 expoundedG1620 unto himG846 theG3588 wayG3598 of GodG2316 more perfectly.G197

Rom 16:3 GreetG782 PriscillaG4252 andG2532 AquilaG207 myG3450 helpersG4904 inG1722 ChristG5547 Jesus:G2424

Paul used the Greek word sunergos for our English word 'helpers'--note the plurality.
G4904
ÃŽµÁ³¿Â
sunergos
soon-er-gos'
From a presumed compound of G4862 and the base of G2041; a co-laborer, that is, coadjutor: - companion in labour, (fellow-) helper (-labourer, -worker), labourer together with, workfellow.

PHOEBE is called a 'servant'; however, this same Strong's number G1249 is recorded as 'minister' when referring to Christ, Paul, Apollos, Timothy, Epaphrus, and several others.
Rom 16:1 (G1161) I commendG4921 unto youG5213 PhebeG5402 ourG2257 sister,G79 which isG5607 a servantG1249 of theG3588 churchG1577 whichG3588 is atG1722 Cenchrea:G2747

Strong's: diakonos
dee-ak'-on-os
Probably from ´¹±ºÉ diako (obsolete, to run on errands; compare G1377); an attendant, that is, (generally) a waiter (at table or in other menial duties); specifically a Christian teacher and pastor (technically a deacon or deaconess): - deacon, minister, servant.

THE FOUR DAUGHTERS OF PHILIP were virgins as well as prophetesses; their father was desribed as an evangelist.
Act 21:8 AndG1161 theG3588 nextG1887 day we that were of Paul's companyG4012 G3972 departed,G1831 and cameG2064 untoG1519 Caesarea:G2542 andG2532 we enteredG1525 intoG1519 theG3588 houseG3624 of PhilipG5376 theG3588 evangelist,G2099 which wasG5607 one ofG1537 theG3588 seven;G2033 and abodeG3306 withG3844 him.G846
Act 21:9 AndG1161 the same manG5129 hadG2258 fourG5064 daughters,G2364 virgins,G3933 which did prophesy.G4395

G4395
ÀÁ¿Æ·ÄµÅÉ
propheteuo
prof-ate-yoo'-o
From G4396; to foretell events, divine, speak under inspiration, exercise the prophetic office: - prophesy.

THE SAMARITAN WOMAN AT THE WELL, after talking a while with Jesus, went back to her village and talked with the men in such a way that suggests she was convinced He was the Messiah but used women's intuition and reported to the men in such a way that they men would be interested enough to go check him out. Sounds like another method of teaching.
Joh 4:39 AndG1161 manyG4183 of theG3588 SamaritansG4541 ofG1537 thatG1565 cityG4172 believedG4100 onG1519 himG846 forG1223 theG3588 sayingG3056 of theG3588 woman,G1135 which testified,G3140 He toldG2036 meG3427 allG3956 that everG3745 I did.G4160
Joh 4:40 SoG3767 whenG5613 theG3588 SamaritansG4541 were comeG2064 untoG4314 him,G846 they besoughtG2065 himG846 that he would tarryG3306 withG3844 them:G846 andG2532 he abodeG3306 thereG1563 twoG1417 days.G2250
Joh 4:41 AndG2532 manyG4183 moreG4119 believedG4100 becauseG1223 of his ownG846 word;G3056
Joh 4:42 AndG5037 saidG3004 unto theG3588 woman,G1135 NowG3765 we believe,G4100 not becauseG1223 of thyG4674 saying:G2981 forG1063 we have heardG191 him ourselves,G846 andG2532 knowG1492 thatG3754 thisG3778 isG2076 indeedG230 theG3588 Christ,G5547 theG3588 SaviourG4990 of theG3588 world.G2889
Joh 4:43 NowG1161 afterG3326 twoG1417 daysG2250 he departedG1831 thence,G1564 andG2532 wentG565 intoG1519 Galilee.G1056

MARY MAGDALENE AND THE OTHER MARY went to the tomb to complete the prep of Christ's body. First an angelic being tells them he isn't there and to go tell his disciples to go to Galilee. Then Christ appears and tells them essentially the same thing:
Mat 28:5 AndG1161 theG3588 angelG32 answeredG611 and saidG2036 unto theG3588 women,G1135 FearG5399 notG3361 ye:G5210 forG1063 I knowG1492 thatG3754 ye seekG2212 Jesus,G2424 which was crucified.G4717
Mat 28:6 He isG2076 notG3756 here:G5602 forG1063 he is risen,G1453 asG2531 he said.G2036 Come,G1205 seeG1492 theG3588 placeG5117 whereG3699 theG3588 LordG2962 lay.G2749
Mat 28:7 AndG2532 goG4198 quickly,G5035 and tellG2036 hisG846 disciplesG3101 thatG3754 he is risenG1453 fromG575 theG3588 dead;G3498 and,G2532 behold,G2400 he goeth beforeG4254 youG5209 intoG1519 Galilee;G1056 thereG1563 shall ye seeG3700 him:G846 lo,G2400 I have toldG2036 you.G5213
Mat 28:8 AndG2532 they departedG1831 quicklyG5035 fromG575 theG3588 sepulchreG3419 withG3326 fearG5401 andG2532 greatG3173 joy;G5479 and did runG5143 to bring his disciples word.G518 G846 G3101
Mat 28:9 AndG1161 asG5613 they wentG4198 to tellG518 hisG846 disciples,G3101 behold,G2400 (G2532) JesusG2424 metG528 them,G846 saying,G3004 All hail.G5463 AndG1161 theyG3588 cameG4334 and heldG2902 himG846 by theG3588 feet,G4228 andG2532 worshippedG4352 him.G846
Mat 28:10 ThenG5119 saidG3004 JesusG2424 unto them,G846 Be not afraid:G5399 G3361 goG5217 tellG518 myG3450 brethrenG80 thatG2443 they goG565 intoG1519 Galilee,G1056 and thereG2546 shall they seeG3700 me.G3165


So:

With ANNA, we have a woman telling ALL WHO WOULD LISTEN....the word ALL means male and female, not just women and children. She knew what the Messiah meant. With PRISCILLA, we have a woman teaching man—a man who is not her husband. She is a woman who Paul sings praises of. He doesn't raise hell with her for teaching a man. Further, he speaks of she and Aquila as co-laborers. Yes, it was at their home in private. So what? Like nobody would know? I would suggest that it was handled that way so as to not embarrass Apollos by making corrections or providing additional information that would lower his reputation among the church people.

The use of 'co' laborers by Paul suggests her being on an equal footing with himself.

With PHOEBE, we find the definition of 'servant' as a Christian teacher or pastor, and technically a deacon or deaconess. It's hard to imagine that she did not speak during assembly given the definition of her 'job'. The only difference I found was that when it was a woman, it was a servant, but when it was Christ or a man, the same word becomes minister or something else.

And then the FOUR PROPHETESS DAUGHTERS of Philip were inspired speakers. It would appear they travel with their father, the evangelist. Surely if a man asked them a question, they wouldn't refuse to answer him, which essentially would be pastoring or teaching, and instead refer him to their father or some other man.

This last comment is something to think about. Does a Christian woman, if approached by a man regarding Jesus Christ and salvation, supposed to say, “I can't talk to you about that so you should go see pastor so and so or priest thus and that”? Or tell him to give her his phone number and she'll have a man get back to him? That would be ludicrous.

As it regards THE SAMARITAN WOMAN, the quoted scripture shows that it was due to her that the MEN came to Christ.....she brought them news of the Messiah regardless of how she did it.

And probably the most important, to me, is the part of MARY MAGDALENE AND THE OTHER MARY. Here Christ himself is telling women to go proclaim the gospel, the good news.

That Christ arose IS THE GOSPEL MESSAGE! Unless He arose, He would have only been another sect leader. He was sending these women as evangelizers! To men, and the other disciples which would have been women. The men heard them, but then doubted......that goes to show the low esteem with which women were held.

The esteem with which women were held is an important factor. I say this because these men, as the other men of that time, grew up in a world where they were only instructed by women in early childhood; women were lowly educated; held in such low regard that they were not used as a witness, etc. It was just a natural reaction to dismiss what they said.

I've read a couple of places where Jewish men pray each morning thanking God they weren't born a woman. IIRC, it was Josephus who said something to the effect that a bad man was better than a good woman.

But Christ never felt that way, nor talked that way, nor acted that way. All were equal to him. I will have one last thing to say from Christ at the end. Jesus Christ was a Jew, born in Judea. His grew up basically in a Jewish neighborhood and lived the customary Jewish person's life. He would have had contact with gentiles, though not a great amount given his age.

His ministry started with the Jews, their religion, their culture. A culture that didn't think much of women. They were essentially to be barefoot and pregnant. You were not well thought of if you attempted to educate women. It was a man's world, though women prostitutes at/around temples was a different matter.

But He would talk to anyone—lawyers, rabbis, children, men, and women. Not only would he speak to women, even the 'unclean' women, he held them in high regard.

And now we come to the apostle Paul. I love Paul. I think of him as my Banty rooster apostle. Small in stature, but with the tenacity of an eagle! I love this apostle even though I often have to read his diatribe more than once or twice to get a more complete understanding of what he is saying. His style of arguing is alien to me.

It is with Paul's writings that so much of the argument(s) regarding women in ministry arise and its been offered up that he contradicts himself.

I know the Bible does not contradict itself. I also know that man's traditions make void the word of God.

From Jesus Christ: Mar 7:9 AndG2532 he saidG3004 unto them,G846 Full wellG2573 ye rejectG114 theG3588 commandmentG1785 of God,G2316 thatG2443 ye may keepG5083 your ownG5216 tradition.G3862

Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effectG208 G3588 G3056 G2316 through yourG5216 tradition,G3862 whichG3739 ye have delivered:G3860 andG2532 manyG4183 suchG5108 like thingsG3946 doG4160 ye.

From the apostle Paul: Col 2:8 BewareG991 lestG3361 any manG5100 spoilG4812 youG5209 throughG1223 philosophyG5385 andG2532 vainG2756 deceit,G539 afterG2596 theG3588 traditionG3862 of men,G444 afterG2596 theG3588 rudimentsG4747 of theG3588 world,G2889 andG2532 notG3756 afterG2596 Christ.G5547

Jesus Christ and Paul agree on this fact. So, if there is anything that seems to contradict, it is man that is having a problem with scripture. This could be either to not understanding the meaning of the word(s) due to translation, to the copyists errors in times past, or whatever.

I have no problem with a wife submitting to her husband. I believe that a wife should be submissive to her husband in the physical world. I do not believe she is to accept him in the spiritual world as her head. We only have one Master in the spiritual realm, and it definitely is not our human husband.

I have even seen this argued as 'a wife submits to her husband, and the husband submits to Jesus Christ. This would put women unable to talk directly to God, much like my understanding that the Catholic church has parishioners confess their sins to a priest, who apparently forwards them on—that is, unless they consider themselves as equal to Christ in forgiving sins department...and I totally reject that.

Christ died for all, and all includes men AND women.

Before Adam and Eve sinned, they were equals. Once there was sin, she was made to be submissive. But now that Christ has removed sin from Christians, we are again as equals.

Gal 3:28 There isG1762 neitherG3756 JewG2453 norG3761 Greek,G1672 there isG1762 neitherG3756 bondG1401 norG3761 free,G1658 there isG1762 neitherG3756 maleG730 norG2532 female:G2338 forG1063 yeG5210 areG2075 allG3956 oneG1520 inG1722 ChristG5547 Jesus.G2424

The word ALL is defined as:
G3956
À±BÂ
pas
pas Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: - all (manner of, means) alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X throughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.

While making reference to the Old Testament, it should be noted that God used an ass to speak for Him. He also used a bush. And a whale helped Him make an important point to a prophet. God can use anyone or anything He wants to make his point or get something across. Yes, even a woman. He is unlimited.

I, for one, don't want to be saying who God can or can't use—God knows everyone's heart and He knows who He will use for whatever purpose. In other words, God will handle it all.

I believe much of the problem regarding women in ministry is due to how the Corinthian Epistles are interpreted. It's necessary to understand a bit about the culture of Corinth and its influence on the church there.

It's important to understand that 1 Corinthians was written in response to a report and a letter that the Corinthians had written to Paul. Paul takes the first few chapters to write about himself and Timothy, and some other things.

Then in Chapters 5 and 6 go into some specifics, such as fornication, and treating one's body as the temple of the Holy Spirit.

Beginning in Chapter 7, Paul starts to respond to matters that the Corinthians brought up in their letter to him. Verses 1 through 17 refer to marital matters; and then there are some verses regarding circumscism, slavery, and more on marital situations.

Notice Verses in 8 through 12 how Paul indicates the difference between who is speaking, i.e., the Lord or I (himself). This is important. Paul knows the difference and states it.

I Corinthians 11:5 talks about it being wrong for a woman to pray or to prophesy with her head uncovered. Stands to reason, then, if her head is covered she is allowed to pray and prophesy, i.e., inspired speech. Paul was smart enough, educated enough that he would have said that women were not to speak at all, to sit in silence for the duration, or even more direct words........but he didn't.

Chapters 12 and 13 deal with the disbursement of gifts by the Holy Spirit.

And now for Chapter 14 and its infamous verse:
1Co 14:34 Let yourG5216 womenG1135 keep silenceG4601 inG1722 theG3588 churches:G1577 forG1063 it is notG3756 permittedG2010 unto themG846 to speak;G2980 butG235 they are commanded to be under obedience,G5293 asG2531 alsoG2532 saithG3004 theG3588 law.G3551

and the verse prior to the 34th:
1Co 14:33 ForG1063 GodG2316 isG2076 notG3756 the author of confusion,G181 butG235 of peace,G1515 asG5613 inG1722 allG3956 churchesG1577 of theG3588 saints.G40

and the following verses which help make sense of what is being said:
1Co 14:35 AndG1161 ifG1487 they willG2309 learnG3129 any thing,G5100 let them askG1905 theirG2398 husbandsG435 atG1722 home:G3624 forG1063 it isG2076 a shameG149 for womenG1135 to speakG2980 inG1722 the church.G1577
1Co 14:36 What?G2228 cameG1831 theG3588 wordG3056 of GodG2316 out fromG575 you?G5216 orG2228 cameG2658 it untoG1519 youG5209 only?G3441
1Co 14:37 If any manG1536 think himselfG1380 to beG1511 a prophet,G4396 orG2228 spiritual,G4152 let him acknowledgeG1921 thatG3754 the things thatG3739 I writeG1125 unto youG5213 areG1526 the commandmentsG1785 of theG3588 Lord.G2962 1Co 14:38 ButG1161 ifG1487 any manG5100 be ignorant,G50 let him be ignorant.G50 1Co 14:39 Wherefore,G5620 brethren,G80 covetG2206 to prophesy,G4395 andG2532 forbidG2967 notG3361 to speakG2980 with tongues.G1100
1Co 14:40 Let all thingsG3956 be doneG1096 decentlyG2156 andG2532 inG2596 order.G5010

I brought up the 33rd verse because it says that God is the author of peace and not chaos.

Chaos appears to have been what was happening in the church at Corinth during meetings were uneducated or ill-informed wives asking out loud questions to their husbands (or others for that matter) to help them understand what was being said, whether by tongue or regarding doctrine, or whatever....to the point that it would disrupt the meetings, causing chaos.

BUT, notice in Verse 36, that Paul says “What”? The word what seems to be a negative disclaimer. Sort of like, 'Are you nuts? Where'd you come up with this line of thinking? “Do you think the word of God came from out of you and you dispense it to the rest of us?

It is obvious this didn't come from Paul—he's astounded. It seems he is iterating what they had written in their letter. It is too bad we do not have the letter the Corinthians wrote to him.

Ephesus seems to be much like Corinth culturally. Wealth, pagan worship, crossroads of travel are but a few ways.

I Timothy 2: 1Ti 2:9 In like mannerG5615 also,G2532 that womenG1135 adornG2885 themselvesG1438 inG1722 modestG2887 apparel,G2689 withG3326 shamefacednessG127 andG2532 sobriety;G4997 notG3361 withG1722 broided hair,G4117 orG2228 gold,G5557 orG2228 pearls,G3135 orG2228 costlyG4185 array;G2441
1Ti 2:10 ButG235 (whichG3739 becomethG4241 womenG1135 professingG1861 godliness)G2317 withG1223 goodG18 works.G2041
1Ti 2:11 Let the womanG1135 learnG3129 inG1722 silenceG2271 withG1722 allG3956 subjection.G5292
1Ti 2:12 ButG1161 I sufferG2010 notG3756 a womanG1135 to teach,G1321 norG3761 to usurp authority overG831 the man,G435 butG235 to beG1511 inG1722 silence.G2271

No doubt, the church at Ephesus was experiencing the same sort of disruptions as Corinth, though in the choice of words for silence, here Paul uses a definition that would include 'bustle', or moving around.

More importantly, Paul uses the word “I” rather than 'the Lord saith”.

Furthermore, according to the Fuller Theological Seminary website, Verse 12 uses the Greek word “authenteio' to usurp authority over. The website explains this way:

“ The term translated “to have authority” (authentein) occurs only here in the New Testament and was rarely used in the Greek language. It is not the usual word for positive, active authority. Rather, it is a negative term, which refers to the usurpation and abuse of authority. Thus, the prohibition (2:11–12) is against some abusive activity, but not against the appropriate exercise of teaching and in the church. The clue to the abuse implied is found within the heretical activity outlined in 1–2 Timothy. The heretics evidently had a deviant approach to sexuality (1 Timothy 4:3; 5:11–15) and a particular focus on deluding women, who were generally uneducated (2 Timothy 3:6–7).”

If none of what I have addressed with Paul is correct, then I believe we should throw all of Paul's writings out because one could spend their life trying to figure out the truthfulness or accuracy of anything he has said—and quite possibly we'd be looking at siding with what we call heretics! Heaven forbid.

And finally, while my Savior's teachings and actions are sufficient for me, and Acts 2 where the Holy Spirit filled each follower and passed out gifts to ALL (that includes the women that were there) is proof positive, what is now effectively closing the book for me on this topic is reading in Revelations 2 where our Lord is having John write to the church at Thyratira:

Rev 2:20 NotwithstandingG235 I haveG2192 a few thingsG3641 againstG2596 thee,G4675 becauseG3754 thou sufferestG1439 that womanG1135 Jezebel,G2403 which callethG3004 herselfG1438 a prophetess,G4398 to teachG1321 andG2532 to seduceG4105 myG1699 servantsG1401 to commit fornication,G4203 andG2532 to eatG5315 things sacrificed unto idols.G1494
Rev 2:21 AndG2532 I gaveG1325 herG846 spaceG5550 toG2443 repentG3340 ofG1537 herG848 fornication;G4202 andG2532 she repentedG3340 not.G3756
Rev 2:22 Behold,G2400 IG1473 will castG906 herG846 intoG1519 a bed,G2825 andG2532 them that commit adulteryG3431 withG3326 herG846 intoG1519 greatG3173 tribulation,G2347 exceptG3362 they repentG3340 ofG1537 theirG848 deeds.G2041 Rev 2:23 AndG2532 I will killG615 herG848 childrenG5043 withG1722 death;G2288 andG2532 allG3956 theG3588 churchesG1577 shall knowG1097 thatG3754 IG1473 amG1510 he which searchethG2045 the reinsG3510 andG2532 hearts:G2588 andG2532 I will giveG1325 unto every oneG1538 of youG5213 accordingG2596 to yourG5216 works.G2041

Notice the bolding and underlined portions. A woman was teaching. It was WHAT she was teaching that Jesus Christ abhorred. The second verse says nothing about her act of teaching men.

There are more names that could have been brought to the table. No doubt there are other arguments to be made. Certainly, there will be lots of disputation. I look forward to hearing your opinions.

Just no names or garbage language, please.

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#1. To: redleghunter, Murron, AKA Stone (#0)

Murron would you mind letting redleghunter know an article has been posted here.

rowdee  posted on  2013-07-29   0:24:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: rowdee (#1) (Edited)

"Murron would you mind letting redleghunter know an article has been posted here."

Done, darlin!

(Thomas Jefferson: "What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms.")

Murron  posted on  2013-07-29   13:48:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: rowdee, redleghunter (#1)

redleghunter said she will respond, if not tomorrow, then one day this week.

(Thomas Jefferson: "What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms.")

Murron  posted on  2013-07-29   15:47:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: Murron (#3)

Great. Thanks so much, Murron.

rowdee  posted on  2013-07-29   19:13:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: rowdee (#4)

You're welcome...

(Thomas Jefferson: "What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms.")

Murron  posted on  2013-07-29   19:22:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Murron (#3)

I'm a "he" but LOL.

5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; 6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct[a] your paths.(Proverbs 3:5-6)

redleghunter  posted on  2013-07-31   12:56:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: rowdee (#0)

Interesting article. Thanks for posting it.

Vicomte13  posted on  2013-07-31   13:48:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: redleghunter (#6)

I'm a "he" but LOL.

I do apologize! &;-)

(Thomas Jefferson: "What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms.")

Murron  posted on  2013-07-31   14:08:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: Vicomte13 (#7)

Interesting article. Thanks for posting it.

Certainly not as well written as those posted by you on another website which I've read over the years, but I think I've provided enough evidence to back up my position. I believe Christ's words, as written by John, would be of most value as you view such matters.

Thank you for your comments.

rowdee  posted on  2013-07-31   14:37:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: redleghunter, Murron (#6)

I'm a "he" but LOL.

I didn't attempt to correct this gender issue.....truthfully because, while I thought you were a male, I've not seen this addressed before (at least that I recall), so I thought Murron could well know more than I.....

rowdee  posted on  2013-07-31   14:41:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: rowdee (#9) (Edited)

I was particularly struck by your addition of the exclamatory question mark, Paul's WHAT?!

The old manuscripts do not have punctuation, so we have to extrapolate. The tension in that letter between what came before and what comes after has always bothered me. It doesn't make sense. It is sort of like Jesus seeming to say 'I am saying make friends with filthy lucre', which makes no sense at all in context, because both before and after he says no. Jesus sure makes sense when one realizes that he is asking a question, in effect: 'The children of this world are better at handling money than the saints. So, am I saying to go make friends with filthy lucre? No. I'm telling you to be attentive.'

This can be disputed, and would be (by those who like 'filthy lucre'!), but seeing it that way certainly resolves a tension quite easily.

Paul's "What?" here is in the same vein. Maybe that's what he meant, maybe it isn't, but it is certainly interesting, because if it is what he said, it resolves all of the apparent tension in the document.

You're not a Catholic, but I'll point out that a vast number of the saints are female, including the saint whom God chose to be his messenger, at the head of an army to liberate France: Joan of Arc.

Vicomte13  posted on  2013-07-31   15:01:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: Vicomte13 (#11)

The understanding I've used of Paul's 'what?' seems to me to be the only way this can be read to where he makes sense. As I noted, I've had difficulties in reading/understanding Paul's writings. I've been conflicted as just a reading suggests that he is forked tongue when it comes to women speaking in public.

But keeping in mind who he was writing to, it makes sense if understood this way.

I've noticed Joan is one of your heros of the faith, so to speak. I take your word that there are many, many women saints.

rowdee  posted on  2013-07-31   16:36:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: rowdee, Murron (#10)

I didn't attempt to correct this gender issue.....truthfully because, while I thought you were a male, I've not seen this addressed before (at least that I recall), so I thought Murron could well know more than I.....

No issues at this end sister, none at all. Was 25% done with your article before work and family events pulled me away. Will finish it tomorrow and comment.

5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; 6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct[a] your paths.(Proverbs 3:5-6)

redleghunter  posted on  2013-08-01   11:24:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: rowdee (#0)

Dr. Scott died and his wife took over the ministry. All hell broke loose.........

Sister, if you can provide the exact controversy in detail of Dr. Scott's wife taking over the ministry I would appreciate it. It is one statement in your background information, which I believe led you to write this article. It will help me understand your approach to the remainder of the article, which I believe is well researched.

Thanks!

5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; 6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct[a] your paths.(Proverbs 3:5-6)

redleghunter  posted on  2013-08-13   13:01:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: redleghunter (#14)

There were some in the congregation that held that no woman was to be preacher/teacher/pastor. I think some even said that Dr. Scott said that, though I never heard him say that.

He didn't think of himself as an evangelizer, but rather a pastor/teacher. I felt he, as well as she, are more like teachers. They both consider(ed) themself as under shepherds, leaders of a flock of sheep, in the biblical sense.

I didn't have an opinon on the matter based on any biblical readings that I could recall, so that was sort of what started me searching.

And the search wasn't an all at once attempt. I came across the great Pauline letters which seemed to tell women to sit and shut up and yet he was commenting on women covering their heads to speak in church, praising women who seemingly started churches in their homes, and such--things which seemed to make Paul speak with a forked tongue--something I couldn't believe.

It just sort of happened over time as I had so many other questions I was looking for answers to, as well as reacquainting myself with the Bible.

I had to 'unlearn' a lot of what I thought Christianity is...and I didn't want to go thru that again.

rowdee  posted on  2013-08-13   14:13:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: rowdee (#15)

Sister you have mail!

5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; 6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct[a] your paths.(Proverbs 3:5-6)

redleghunter  posted on  2013-10-09   12:52:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: rowdee (#15)

Rowdee, thanks for posting Women in Ministry and I apologize for not getting back much sooner. Your post is very well researched. I agree with you that Jesus broke down some huge barriers with regards to women and their station in Pharisaic Judaism. The woman at the well in John 4 is a perfect example. Jesus not only spoke to a woman directly (without her husband present) but a Samaritan woman. Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene before His male disciples. We are clearly seeing the Master telling us Salvation has come to men and women and Jesus sees souls that need His Saving Grace. That is clear to me.

I mentioned above Pharisaic Judaism for a reason. Jesus spent a good portion of His earthly ministry tearing down the walls of MANMADE laws which obscured the Truth of His Law. The Pharisees, Scribes etc. created more human made laws to prop up what they would deem as righteousness. What we would call anything created by man in the name of righteousness is called self-righteousness. Jesus "called their hand" on these manmade rules. I think some of these Pharisaic manmade additions put women in a much stricter role in their society.

Where I may differ, I don't believe, given the NT evidence, that Jesus was telling us that men and women are interchangeable in roles in life or the church. Men still beget children, and women still bear children. That may sound silly, but that fact remains since the beginning with Adam and Eve. We also know Jesus affirmed marriage as one man with one woman as it was from the beginning. He thus made it clear a man or woman should not have multiple marriage parnters. So these matters were confirmed by Christ.

But what about the Church? We know several if not more than several women followed Christ as disciples. The Gospels are evidence of this. We also know from the evidence of the Gospels Jesus chose 12 men to be His main disciples and follow-on apostles. These 12 (minus the son of perdition) and later Paul were the main sowers of churches in the known world. We see in Acts and the Epistles as Paul moved along on his missionary journeys, he planted churches and various people were raised up to lead those local churches. We see from the Epistles (Titus and Timothy come to mind) where Paul outlines the qualifications for overseers for the local churches. Paul does state that these overseers will be men and that they should have only one wife, the wife should be a believer and the children as well; not given to too much wine and the list goes on. I think if overseer was intended to be either a position for a man or woman, Paul would have made it clear. In my opinion, I think Jesus would have made it clear as well by choosing a woman as one of the original 12. So I think it is clear an overseer (today we would call a pastor) should be a believing man along with the other qualifications.

What about other roles in the Church. The NT gives us many roles women should be participating in, and in other places I see some silence. I do not see women barred from teaching a bible study to all adults. I am sure this happened in the early Church especially when we see at least one church where the members were either all women or mostly women. Women were clearly seen in Acts as active evangelizers. That happens today as well and is sound in my opinion. It was a Vacation Bible School lady teacher who led me to the Gospel message. She also was a very key personality in teaching me what the Bible said about obedience and the sanctification "process." I was among a few teen- aged boys who accompanied her to nursing homes where she would read the Bible, sing songs to the elderly as the Christian boys wheeled in the residents and served them cookies and coffee. I saw first hand how to preach the Gospel on a very personal level in public. So she (I to this day call her my 'spiritual mom') was teaching me and many other young men. When I reached the age of about 17, I was "handed over" along with the other young men to receive our Bible studies with the elders (overseers).

So other than overseer, I don't see many restrictions for women in the local churches. You have to understand I was a member of a very small church with no regional, national or international affiliation. The only affiliation was that it was a NT evangelical church. I think that wonderful small church kept to the letter and spirit of the early small local churches.

Now, this is my opinion again. The Bible does show us a clear example of a woman who did lead over men. That would be Deborah. I view the Deborah situation as a clear example of when men fail to lead, God will raise up the most capable to replace them. This was Deborah. This happened in the times of Judges. The men of Israel were timid or ignored their duties, therefore God raised up Deborah to deliver the nation. I think also today that if qualified men do not stand up to lead as overseers, that women will fill the role. You probably see it more than I do but this is something I see a lot. You have several women coming to the Lord while already married. They find a church and find that 75% of the congregation are women in the same position (unsaved husbands). That type of church is going to have a lot of women leaders and teachers.

I think what it all comes down to is we need to ask The Father through the Son where He wants us to obediently serve Him in His Church--The Body of Christ. His Holy Spirit will lead us to His Word and His Will for us.

5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; 6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct[a] your paths.(Proverbs 3:5-6)

redleghunter  posted on  2013-10-15   17:34:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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