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Title: Torture May Have Slowed Hunt For Bin Laden, Not Hastened It
Source:
HuffPo
URL Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/ ... lowed-h_n_858642.html?ir=World
Published: May 6, 2011
Author: Dan Froomkin
Post Date: 2011-05-06 22:02:39 by war
Keywords: None
Views: 43363
Comments: 49
Torture apologists are reaching precisely the wrong conclusion from the back-story of the hunt for Osama bin Laden, say experienced interrogators and intelligence professionals.
Defenders of the Bush administration’s interrogation policies have claimed vindication from reports that bin Laden was tracked down in small part due to information received from brutalized detainees some six to eight years ago.
But that sequence of events -- even if true -- doesn’t demonstrate the effectiveness of torture, these experts say. Rather, it indicates bin Laden could have been caught much earlier had those detainees been interrogated properly.
"I think that without a doubt, torture and enhanced interrogation techniques slowed down the hunt for bin Laden," said an Air Force interrogator who goes by the pseudonym Matthew Alexander and located Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the leader of al Qaeda in Iraq, in 2006.
It now appears likely that several detainees had information about a key al Qaeda courier -- information that might have led authorities directly to bin Laden years ago. But subjected to physical and psychological brutality, "they gave us the bare minimum amount of information they could get away with to get the pain to stop, or to mislead us," Alexander told The Huffington Post.
"We know that they didn’t give us everything, because they didn’t provide the real name, or the location, or somebody else who would know that information," he said.
In a 2006 study by the National Defense Intelligence College, trained interrogators found that traditional, rapport-based interviewing approaches are extremely effective with even the most hardened detainees, whereas coercion consistently builds resistance and resentment. Story continues below Advertisement
"Had we handled some of these sources from the beginning, I would like to think that there’s a good chance that we would have gotten this information or other information," said Steven Kleinman, a longtime military intelligence officer who has extensively researched, practiced and taught interrogation techniques.
"By making a detainee less likely to provide information, and making the information he does provide harder to evaluate, they hindered what we needed to accomplish," said Glenn L. Carle, a retired CIA officer who oversaw the interrogation of a high-level detainee in 2002.
But the discovery and killing of bin Laden was enough for defenders of the Bush administration to declare that their policies had been vindicated.
Liz Cheney, daughter of the former vice president, quickly issued a statement declaring that she was "grateful to the men and women of America’s intelligence services who, through their interrogation of high-value detainees, developed the information that apparently led us to bin Laden."
John Yoo, the lead author of the "Torture Memos," wrote in the Wall Street Journal that bin Laden's death "vindicates the Bush administration, whose intelligence architecture marked the path to bin Laden's door."
Former Bush secretary of defense Donald Rumsfeld declared that "the information that came from those individuals was critically important."
The Obama White House pushed back against that conclusion this week.
"The bottom line is this: If we had some kind of smoking-gun intelligence from waterboarding in 2003, we would have taken out Osama bin Laden in 2003," Tommy Vietor, spokesman for the National Security Council, told The New York Times.
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America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." Chronological details of the hunt for bin Laden remain murky, but piecing together various statements from administration and intelligence officials, it appears the first step may have been the CIA learning the nickname of an al Qaeda courier -- Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti -- from several detainees picked up after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. Then, in 2003, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed (KSM), the 9/11 mastermind, was captured, beaten, slammed into walls, shackled in stress positions and made to feel like he was drowning 183 times in a month. When asked about al-Kuwaiti, however, KSM denied that the he had anything to do with al Qaeda.
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." Panetta Confirms Waterboarding Led to Bin Laden, Left Freaks Out There you have it. I mean Panetta said waterboarding. He had said it before last night with Bri Wi on the NBC Nightly News. Brian Williams. He’d said it before that. Now, there were three people. We waterboarded three guys. One was Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. One was Abu Zubaydah and I forget the other, but they were not waterboarded at Gitmo. They were waterboarded elsewhere. It doesn’t matter who it is, Snerdley. Your al-Libi is my al-Hayat, it doesn’t matter. There were three guys and they were all waterboarded at the black site prisons, the CIA prisons, before they got to Gitmo. Rumsfeld has admitted this. So here you have Panetta who I actually think, folks, the more things spill out, the aftermath of this story we’re getting, it’s getting more and more confused, there’s more and more contradictions about what happened, what didn’t happen, why what happened happened and why what didn’t happen didn’t happen. It seems like Panetta is really at the helm here. So there he is, he says waterboarding was used. Folks, I mean this ruins everything! I mean it’s like Ronald Reagan coming out and saying, “No, I was never for tax cuts. Tax increases are the way to go.” I can’t tell you the utter devastation Panetta’s statement caused everybody on the left. That takes us to PMSNBC and Lawrence O’Donnell The Last Word. When I tuned in I felt like I was watching a local news show in a foreign country in a hotel. O’Donnell had as his guest the deputy national security advisor, Denis McDonough. And here’s the question. O’Donnell said, “Candidate Obama spoke strongly against waterboarding. Director Panetta has now confirmed to Brian Williams that some of the detainees who provided some of the info that had created the chain of information that eventually led to the killing of Bin Laden, let me ask you this. Did any useful information that led to this mission come from waterboarding?” So Panetta has just said it two hours earlier on the NBC Nightly News. Two hours later the AAA team, MSNBC, Lawrence O’Donnell has gotta do something here to do damage control. So he asked this guy, McDonough, the deputy national security advisor, come on, was waterboarding really used?
Now, I know I’m not going to change the minds of any of the True Believers…those who read all of Reverend Al’s sermons, and say things like, “You know, global warming can mean warmer OR colder, wetter OR drier, cloudier OR sunnier, windier OR calmer, …”. Can I get an ‘amen’??
Still desperately seeking validation for Boy Blunder's failures...
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." You and Dan need to tell it to Leon.
Now, I know I’m not going to change the minds of any of the True Believers…those who read all of Reverend Al’s sermons, and say things like, “You know, global warming can mean warmer OR colder, wetter OR drier, cloudier OR sunnier, windier OR calmer, …”. Can I get an ‘amen’??
All Panetta confirmed was that waterboarding was used. Every source has stated that KSM LIED about the courier.
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." It is true that some information that came from normal interrogation approaches at Guantanamo did lead to information that was beneficial in this instance,” Rumsfeld said during an interview with the conservative magazine Newsmax. “But it was not harsh treatment and it was not waterboarding.
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." And Rumsfeld later clarified his statement and said that waterboarding most definitely provided useful information. keep up. Has Leon been bullied into backtracking yet?
Now, I know I’m not going to change the minds of any of the True Believers…those who read all of Reverend Al’s sermons, and say things like, “You know, global warming can mean warmer OR colder, wetter OR drier, cloudier OR sunnier, windier OR calmer, …”. Can I get an ‘amen’??
This seems pretty clear to me, Padlock. "It is true that some information that came from normal interrogation approaches at Guantanamo did lead to information that was beneficial in this instance....but it was not harsh treatment and it was not waterboarding."
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." Ha Ha Ha I love seeing you leftards twist in the wind ___ Williams: Turned around the other way, are you denying that waterboarding was in part among the tactics used to extract the intelligence that led to this successful mission? Panetta: No, I think some of the detainees clearly were — you know, they used these enhanced interrogation techniques against some of these detainees. But I’m also saying that the debate about whether we would have gotten the same information through other approaches I think is always going to be an open question. Williams: So, final point, one final time: enhanced interrogation techniques, which has always been kind of a handy euphemism in these post-9/11 years, that includes waterboarding. Panetta: That’s correct. -- If waterboarding wasn't successful, he would have fallen all over himself to make that point. How does it feel knowing you have been full of shit for 8 years?
Now, I know I’m not going to change the minds of any of the True Believers…those who read all of Reverend Al’s sermons, and say things like, “You know, global warming can mean warmer OR colder, wetter OR drier, cloudier OR sunnier, windier OR calmer, …”. Can I get an ‘amen’??
Pure speculation on both your parts.
Panetta is a piece of shit.
The people who were waterboarded weren't done so at GUANTANAMO.
Now, I know I’m not going to change the minds of any of the True Believers…those who read all of Reverend Al’s sermons, and say things like, “You know, global warming can mean warmer OR colder, wetter OR drier, cloudier OR sunnier, windier OR calmer, …”. Can I get an ‘amen’??
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." President [of the Tribunal]: What I’m trying to get at is any statement that you made was it because of this treatment, to use your word, you claim torture. Do you make any statements because of that? [snip] KSM: I make up stories just location UBL. Where is he? I don’t know. Then he torture me. Then I said yes, he is in this area or this is al Qaida which I don’t him. I say no. They torture me.
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." I had to read the TM on interrogations and have training regarding it, and there is a large body of tactics and lines of approach to getting information that does not involve making he or she whom you question suffer. Other than perhaps not respecting their sleep cycle and other disorienting things like that. Water boarding is a gross human rights violation, and it does not produce accurate, quality intelligence. If I were on a Special Forces A team that was executing an operations order predicated on Intel gathered by torture, I would write my girlfriend a long sweet letter for her to have something to remember me by if the whole thing went south while in the field putting my life on the line. It is not sane to assume that those gathering information knew what they were doing if they were torturing people to try to do this sort of thing that way.
Former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld: “CIA Director Panetta indicated that one of the individuals who provided important information had in fact been waterboarded… There was some confusion today on some programs, even one on FOX I think, suggesting that I indicated that no one who was waterboarded at Guantanamo provided any information on this. It’s not true. No one was waterboarded at Guantanamo by the US military. In fact no one was waterboarded at Guantanamo period. Three people were waterboarded by the CIA away from Guantanamo and then later were brought to Guantanamo. And, in fact, as you pointed out the information from these individuals was critically important.”
Now, I know I’m not going to change the minds of any of the True Believers…those who read all of Reverend Al’s sermons, and say things like, “You know, global warming can mean warmer OR colder, wetter OR drier, cloudier OR sunnier, windier OR calmer, …”. Can I get an ‘amen’??
How would Rummy the Clown know this? Has Obama been keeping him updated?
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." Rumsfeld, in this statement, only says detainees that provided information were also waterboarded, not that the critical information was the result of waterboarding.
The Republican budget goes after children and the poor. Courage would be going after defense and the rich. Bill Maher
The entire context of the discussion was whether or not waterboarding provided information. Give it up. The head of the "get Osama" expedition has already admitted waterboarding worked.
Now, I know I’m not going to change the minds of any of the True Believers…those who read all of Reverend Al’s sermons, and say things like, “You know, global warming can mean warmer OR colder, wetter OR drier, cloudier OR sunnier, windier OR calmer, …”. Can I get an ‘amen’??
ORANGEBURG, S.C. (AP) — Colin Powell told graduates of South Carolina's premier historically black university that they were graduating during a tumultuous time that saw a royal wedding, a pope's beatification and a U.S. military assault that killed Osama bin Laden, "the worst person on earth." But the former secretary of state and Joint Chiefs chairman told South Carolina State University's 400 graduates on Friday that he particularly enjoyed another recent event: "That was when President Obama took out his birth certificate and blew away Donald Trump and all the birthers!" The stadium roared in approval of Powell's comments on the president's move last week to quell the doubts of those who don't believe he was born in Hawaii. The retired Army four-star general endorsed Obama's 2008 presidential bid. Earlier Friday, Powell was made an honorary member of the school's ROTC hall of fame. http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jxBChAYbNQdjzhKPeV8j4yYAglKw?docId=2edd53f74a5f4a3c95e2b2192aafcadd It was a brilliant move to keep Bush's Secretary of Defense, and President Obama has made great inroads toward acceptance by 'the club' that the body of past and present flag officers is. The game has been successfully shifted from challenging Obama on that issue to having to fight the media acceptance of the fact of what state he was born in to get back to that posturing on the issue. Fighting Obama on this front is now a complete waste of time and so is trying to go after Obama based on his intelligence and political cunning.
Now, I know I’m not going to change the minds of any of the True Believers…those who read all of Reverend Al’s sermons, and say things like, “You know, global warming can mean warmer OR colder, wetter OR drier, cloudier OR sunnier, windier OR calmer, …”. Can I get an ‘amen’??
Did he say it worked better than a stopped clock?
The Republican budget goes after children and the poor. Courage would be going after defense and the rich. Bill Maher
Nowhere does Rumsfeld state that any of the information that was used for this operation came from waterboarding. He parses in the face of Shamitty's leading questions. I'm glad that you posted this. The desperation for validation of both Shammity and Bumstead is STARKLY apparent.
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." I would suggest you listen to him between the 50 and 60 second marks.
Now, I know I’m not going to change the minds of any of the True Believers…those who read all of Reverend Al’s sermons, and say things like, “You know, global warming can mean warmer OR colder, wetter OR drier, cloudier OR sunnier, windier OR calmer, …”. Can I get an ‘amen’??
I did. I suggest that you keep reading this: KSM LIED ABOUT THE COURIER...until it sinks in...
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." Important to what, Paddy? You seem to ***think*** that these guys don't speak deliberately. At no point does Rumsfeld marry the waterboarding to bin Laden. In fact, the only time he applies waterboarding to the op is to state that it had no bearing.
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." No he didn't. He gave the nom de guerre instead of the actual name because that's probably all he was allowed to know. It's pathetic how you twist to give credit to this asshole living in in the White House.
Now, I know I’m not going to change the minds of any of the True Believers…those who read all of Reverend Al’s sermons, and say things like, “You know, global warming can mean warmer OR colder, wetter OR drier, cloudier OR sunnier, windier OR calmer, …”. Can I get an ‘amen’??
All liberals have two things in common. Self esteem issues, and the ability to lie to themselves on a daily basis. Don't know what the dwarf claims, obviously. But if you follow the above two rules, it always falls in place, with him or any other liberal.
Mr President, its 72 virgins, not 72 VERSIONS.
BULLSHIT.
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." I guess that's why it took a conservative administration to sort through all the information, put the relevant facts together and locate OBL.
The Republican budget goes after children and the poor. Courage would be going after defense and the rich. Bill Maher
What happened to the Boofer who used to pontificate that "Loose lips sink ships"? Why would a black up need 1 version, Boofer?
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." BULLSHIT. Because you oh so desperately want to believe That? You've been provided with numerous sources documenting such.
Now, I know I’m not going to change the minds of any of the True Believers…those who read all of Reverend Al’s sermons, and say things like, “You know, global warming can mean warmer OR colder, wetter OR drier, cloudier OR sunnier, windier OR calmer, …”. Can I get an ‘amen’??
Padlock can't get over the fact that a "nigger" succeeded where his Boy Blunder failed. Nor can Boofer...nor the entire employee roster at Fox News or EIB. I wish that I could say that I am getting a great deal of satisfaction from watching them got so eaten up with the goofies over this but I cannot. I am getting an IMMEASURABLE amount of satisfaction from it...(grin)
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." Your Moonbat websites and reporting are not sources, Padlock.
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." Because you oh so desperately want to believe That? You've been provided with numerous sources documenting such. [snicker]
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." I've given you links from mainstream media sites.
Now, I know I’m not going to change the minds of any of the True Believers…those who read all of Reverend Al’s sermons, and say things like, “You know, global warming can mean warmer OR colder, wetter OR drier, cloudier OR sunnier, windier OR calmer, …”. Can I get an ‘amen’??
KSM lied about the courier.
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." Goofy...its laughable to claim it was the 'administration'. It wasn't. It was the CIA, and the NSA. They remain constant, its administrations that change via the ballot box. Sheesh. You going to claim Owe-bama shoot bin Laden himself next?
Mr President, its 72 virgins, not 72 VERSIONS.
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Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestThe bottom line is this: If we had some kind of smoking-gun intelligence from waterboarding in 2003, we would have taken out Osama bin Laden in 2003
--GW Bush
#2. To: no gnu taxes (#0)
--GW Bush
#3. To: war (#2)
#4. To: no gnu taxes (#3)
--GW Bush
#5. To: war (#4)
#6. To: no gnu taxes (#5)
--GW Bush
#7. To: no gnu taxes (#5)
--GW Bush
#8. To: war (#7)
#9. To: no gnu taxes (#8)
And Rumsfeld later clarified his statement and said that waterboarding most definitely provided useful information.
--GW Bush
#10. To: war (#6)
(Edited)
#11. To: war (#9)
#12. To: no gnu taxes (#10)
#13. To: war (#9)
#14. To: no gnu taxes (#10)
"It is true that some information that came from normal interrogation approaches at Guantanamo did lead to information that was beneficial in this instance....but it was not harsh treatment and it was not waterboarding."
--GW Bush
#15. To: no gnu taxes (#13)
(Edited)
--GW Bush
#16. To: war (#15)
#17. To: war (#14)
#18. To: no gnu taxes (#17)
#19. To: no gnu taxes (#17)
"It is true that some information that came from normal interrogation approaches at Guantanamo did lead to information that was beneficial in this instance....but it was not harsh treatment and it was not waterboarding."
--GW Bush
#20. To: no gnu taxes (#17)
Former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld:
#21. To: lucysmom (#20)
#22. To: A K A Stone (#18)
Colin Powell: Obama blew away the birthers (AP) – 12 hours ago
#23. To: war, lucysmom (#19)
#24. To: no gnu taxes (#21)
The head of the "get Osama" expedition has already admitted waterboarding worked.
#25. To: no gnu taxes (#23)
--GW Bush
#26. To: war (#25)
#27. To: no gnu taxes (#26)
--GW Bush
#28. To: no gnu taxes (#17)
And, in fact, as you pointed out the information from these individuals was critically important.
--GW Bush
#29. To: war (#27)
KSM LIED ABOUT THE COURIER
#30. To: no gnu taxes (#29)
#31. To: no gnu taxes (#29)
He gave the nom de guerre instead of the actual name because that's probably all he was allowed to know.
--GW Bush
#32. To: Badeye (#30)
All liberals have two things in common. Self esteem issues, and the ability to lie to themselves on a daily basis.
#33. To: Badeye (#30)
Mr President, its 72 virgins, not 72 VERSIONS.
--GW Bush
#34. To: war (#31)
He gave the nom de guerre instead of the actual name because that's probably all he was allowed to know.
#35. To: lucysmom (#32)
--GW Bush
#36. To: no gnu taxes (#34)
(Edited)
--GW Bush
#37. To: no gnu taxes (#29)
No he didn't.
--GW Bush
#38. To: war (#36)
#39. To: no gnu taxes (#38)
--GW Bush
#40. To: lucysmom (#32)
I guess that's why it took a conservative administration to sort through all the information, put the relevant facts together and locate OBL
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